Author Topic: What happened to the western rites?  (Read 277 times)

Offline Daniel

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What happened to the western rites?
« on: April 23, 2020, 04:42:05 PM »
As I understand it, there used to be many western rites. But now there's pretty much only one. What happened?
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2020, 06:38:36 PM »
Pretty much Rome exercising control in the fear of losing orthodoxy, up to Trent which was the final bullet in the coffin.

From at least the 7th century (earlier depending on how you interpret Pope Saint Damasus's letter to the Gallican Church, if you interpret their paganization of the liturgy as a "local variation"), Rome, in having personal jurisdiction over Western Europe, was very insistent on the conformity of other local practices to its own praxis as the Roman Church had very clear, unambiguous Apostolic roots and was unambiguously affiliated with orthodoxy; and when local variations occurred, there was a clear fear of losing that orthodoxy.

I say the 7th century because the clearest record of this happening that I know of was with Saint Agatho, Saint Wilfrid, and England; by the 7th Century, both the English and Celtic liturgies had developed quite uniquely from Rome, such that even the monks had a completely different tonsure that was looked on with suspicion (which historians aren't even sure how to replicate), and the manuscripts we have like the Lorica Missal are very peculiar from what you would expect of the Roman Rite.
Saint Wilfrid, with the blessing of Pope Saint Agatho, pretty much destroyed the local variation in the hope of maintaining orthodoxy.

This kept on happening up to the 16th century and reached a total climax in the Council of Trent, where the Roman Rite was standardized and variations which weren't at least 200 years old were abolished and replaced with the Roman Rite. See "Quo Primum."

By the point Trent came around, there were very few variations of the Roman Rite that could be date more than 200 years or which were that substantially different from the main Roman Rite. Even the Rites which were that substantially different in the West, like the Sarum Rite...were really not that substantially different when compared with something like the Byzantine Liturgy or the Coptic Liturgy.


Also, the Protestant Reformation threw a wrench in due to some countries becoming very intolerant towards liturgy which made it difficult to be Catholic in these countries, let alone maintain local variations.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 06:49:56 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2020, 06:52:46 PM »
Sarum is different, for instance having no ordinary barring the Canon, and it is similar to the Use of Rouen. A bigger factor was politics. Henry VIII swept away everything, although for a time he favoured Sarum, even if Abp Cramner found it hard to use, and with the Book of Common Prayer, eventually consigned it to the status of historical curiousity. York, Hereford, Bangor variously slipped into history, or just wholly vanished (for instance nothing definite is known of Bangor now, some guess it had more Welsh saints, that it was Celtic, but that's a guess). The French Revolution ripped apart a Gallican Church in France which had multiple Uses, some actually postdating Trent, like that of Toulouse, or older, like Rouen or Lyons. After the horrors of the French Revolution, it was just practical to use the standard Roman Rite, after years of disruption and chaos.
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2020, 06:54:39 PM »
Also, Vatican II.

Up to Vatican II, there were still a number of Western Rites which were still in practice; the Dominican Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Carmelite Rite, to a small degree the Mozarabic and Sarum Rite, etc.

But Vatican II pretty much destroyed all of those local variations, and they exist as pretty much identical clones of the Novus Ordo Mass (imo).

The traditional forms of these rites are still floating around here and there, but the Latin Mass is already more difficult to find let alone variations of it.

The only exception would be the Anglican Ordinariate, which was established by Pope Benedict XVI, which took the Anglican-Catholic liturgy and modified it such that it's in conformity with the expectations of the Catholic Mass.

Because God has a sense of humor, this Anglican Mass is far more solemn, beautiful, and consistent with Rome's past than the Novus Ordo, even Ad-Orientem Gregorian Novus Ordo.

 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 06:57:28 PM »
Sarum is different, for instance having no ordinary barring the Canon, and it is similar to the Use of Rouen. A bigger factor was politics. Henry VIII swept away everything, although for a time he favoured Sarum, even if Abp Cramner found it hard to use, and with the Book of Common Prayer, eventually consigned it to the status of historical curiousity. York, Hereford, Bangor variously slipped into history, or just wholly vanished (for instance nothing definite is known of Bangor now, some guess it had more Welsh saints, that it was Celtic, but that's a guess). The French Revolution ripped apart a Gallican Church in France which had multiple Uses, some actually postdating Trent, like that of Toulouse, or older, like Rouen or Lyons. After the horrors of the French Revolution, it was just practical to use the standard Roman Rite, after years of disruption and chaos.

Sure. But the Sarum is far more similar in its rubrics to the Traditional Roman Missal compared to the massive variations of "Antiochian" liturgies in the East (Byzantine, Syriac, Assyrian, Maronite; all which come from the same cultural tradition of Syrian Christianity), and far more in common to the Traditional Roman Missal than say something like the Lorica Missal or the manuscripts coming from Saint Germain of Paris.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 06:59:58 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Kent

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 10:07:26 AM »
Also, Vatican II.

Up to Vatican II, there were still a number of Western Rites which were still in practice; the Dominican Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Carmelite Rite, to a small degree the Mozarabic and Sarum Rite, etc.

But Vatican II pretty much destroyed all of those local variations, and they exist as pretty much identical clones of the Novus Ordo Mass (imo).

The traditional forms of these rites are still floating around here and there, but the Latin Mass is already more difficult to find let alone variations of it.

The only exception would be the Anglican Ordinariate, which was established by Pope Benedict XVI, which took the Anglican-Catholic liturgy and modified it such that it's in conformity with the expectations of the Catholic Mass.

Because God has a sense of humor, this Anglican Mass is far more solemn, beautiful, and consistent with Rome's past than the Novus Ordo, even Ad-Orientem Gregorian Novus Ordo.

The Novus Ordo, as opposed to be a standardization of a rite, was a declaration of ritelessness.  That is why (ostensibly) one has 'clown' masses alongside the mass of St. Pius V within the 'western rite.'  (I of course realize that the conventional jargon is one rite, two forms-- but no one buys that, and they shouldn't).

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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 07:51:45 PM »
The Novus Ordo, as opposed to be a standardization of a rite, was a declaration of ritelessness.  That is why (ostensibly) one has 'clown' masses alongside the mass of St. Pius V within the 'western rite.'  (I of course realize that the conventional jargon is one rite, two forms-- but no one buys that, and they shouldn't).

Correct.  And the evidence is that there are endless forms of the N.O.  Priests often make it up as they go along, literally -- inventing prayers, "mixing it up," destroying approved formulas, etc.

No single rite indeed.  Still a giant and often-irreverent, man-centered experiment, manifesting pride, vanity, self-will, and novelty (modernism).
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 11:44:38 PM »
Another factor is the new set of books that emerged around the 13th century. Before this period, the liturgical books were much like those of the Byzantine rite still are: a separate sacramentary (containing the Ordo Missae), separate gospel book, separate epistle book, separate gradual, etc. for Mass. The Office had the psalter, the ordo, the antiphonary, etc. Basically, there was a book for each liturgical minister, including the choir, containing what was proper to the role of each in the liturgy. No particular book had everything, and you essentially needed all the ministers to manage their books in order to celebrate the liturgy.

By the 13th century, these books were rearranged into the Missal, the Breviary, the Pontifical, and the Ritual. The Gospel was kept as a separate book for ritual purposes, but it was also printed in the Missal itself. Besides the convenience of everything being much more organized, it also made it much easier for missionaries, especially those of then-new mendicant orders like the Dominicans and the Franciscans to carry a complete liturgical library with them; the Franciscans adopted the use and liturgical books of the papal curia, which is another factor in the spread of the Roman use throughout Europe.

A downside to this arrangement, though, is that it contributed to the loss of a choral office. It gradually became the norm for priests to simply read the office themselves rather than actually serve it liturgically; when the Jesuits emerged after Trent, they did not even have an obligation to choral office, and the practice of the priest reading the Office himself truly became the practical norm. And since the Jesuits went everywhere, so did that practice.
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: What happened to the western rites?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2020, 04:11:44 PM »
OP talks of a 'Celtic liturgy?' The Stowe Missal found in the walls of Lorrha castle suggests a Latin Rite which evolved in its own direction. Bl (beatified by JP2) Pius IX is known most for V1 and defining Papal Infallibility, but his own effort and support given to local initiatives spurred by the Liturgical Movement resulted in the replacement of local Uses throughout France and elsewhere with the standard Roman Rite. Sometimes these were Neo-Gallican compositions which were far too recent under Trent's two centuries rule, but other times it meant old local Uses that barely survived the French Revolution, with such odd features like liturgical dance of sorts, but with now decrepit liturgical books, and few properly trained in older customs, were replaced with the Roman Rite and newly printed books.

A Europe with a variety of old local Uses might have withstood the post V2 times better, although Novus Ordo versions of the Uses still operating like the Ambrosian Rite, or not so much used, like the Use of Braga, were composed and used and rarely used, respectively.
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