Author Topic: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.  (Read 1703 times)

Offline abc123

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2020, 12:19:36 PM »
That you wrongly assert that Catholics believe that purgatory is part of hell further fuels my skepticism about how well you understand even the Roman Catholic doctrine.

That you can't be bothered to understand what the Orthodox teaching is on the afterlife (despite my fairly succinct summary of it for you) before deciding that the Orthodox believe in purgatory further supports my hunch that you're not approaching this discussion from a position of good faith.

So let's try this, and for purposes of this illustration, I'll make an obvious, though unproven assumption, that there are some Orthodox who believe in something called Purgatory:

Assume you call something Purgatory and define it in X way, and I call something Purgatory and define it in Y way. Is it your opinion that we believe the same doctrine because we both call it Purgatory? Or does the fact that we use the same name while defining it differently mean that we don't believe the same doctrine?

You're getting a front row seat as to why many of us have either put Xavier on 'ignore' or refuse to engage him any longer.

Xavier has had this and many other issues explained to him on this and another, Orthodox site. That he continues to misrepresent opposing views unfortunately lead me to conclude that he argues in bad faith and is not concerned with the truth.

Since he seems to view himself as an apologist I have pointed out to him that he will convince nobody of the truth claims of Roman Catholicism if he persists in his stubborn refusal to engage actual arguments rather than strawmen. He has thus far pridefully dug in his heels and refused correction, whether by non-Catholics OR his fellow Catholics.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:21:25 PM by abc123 »
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Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2020, 12:26:39 PM »
That you have written for One Peter Five does not impress me, and it does nothing to make your statements and (attempted) exegesis more or less true or convincing.

On the other hand, your inability to comprehend the nuance of even your own sources goes a long way toward undermining your argument. And your continual inability to grapple with the actual statements from the opposition makes your writing all the more tedious.

That this is an ego trip for you rather than some sort of apologetic "ministry" is clear. So if your hope is to convince people to agree with you, I can tell you that, for me, you've had the exact opposite effect. Actually, I went into this conversation just playing devil's advocate against your ridiculous style of argumentation. But as a result of it, I find myself more and more strongly disagreeing with you. So I guess if the Catholic Church needs an anti-evangelist, you're definitely qualified for that.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2020, 12:31:26 PM »
I'm definitely open to correction from Catholics, especially the Saints. I cited 5 Saints on the point under dispute, whether the fire of Purgatory is the same as that of Hell.

E.g. St. Robert, "Almost all theologians teach that the damned in Hell and the souls in Purgatory, suffer the action of the same fire." I also cited St. Thomas, St. Gregory, St. Catherine and others.

The Truth of Purgatory matters. If we believe in it, we have the best chance of avoiding it. I've had 3 opponents on this thread, and I can count on one hand the number of Saints they cited collectively.

I don't say anything without proving it by many citations from the Saints. The Catholic Church believes the same doctrines that the Saints have taught.

I also cited Rev. Fr. Francis Shouppe. He also explained the same point: "The fire of Purgatory, say the Fathers, is that of Hell, of which the rich glutton speaks, Quia crucior in hac flamma, “I suffer,” he says, “cruelly in these flames.”
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:33:39 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2020, 12:41:26 PM »
Saint Thomas, broader context: "On the contrary, Gregory says [The quotation is from St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei i, 8)]: "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell: and hence they are in the same place.

Further, the holy fathers; before the coming of Christ, were in a more worthy place than that wherein souls are now cleansed after death, since there was no pain of sense there. Yet that place was joined to hell, or the same as hell: otherwise Christ when descending into Limbo would not be said to have descended into hell. Therefore Purgatory is either close to, or the same place as, hell."
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2020, 12:55:56 PM »
Can you now try to apply what you've cited about Roman Catholic purgatory to my summary of the Orthodox teaching on the state of the soul after death? Perhaps that will clarify the differences.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2020, 01:08:11 PM »
So if we are in agreement that Catholic theologians have taught the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of Hell, we can move on.

Ok. This is your summary: "At some point after death, an individual soul encounters trials based on its sinfulness, whether such trials are literal or figurative. The soul, having passed through this sojourn from life to death is placed in an intermediate state of repose called Hades where the soul partakes to some degree of the torments associated with hell or a foretaste of the blessedness of heaven. The Church prays for the deceased with the faith that it assists the souls of the reposed in some way. Then at the Second Coming and the General Resurrection, the universal judgment will finalize all for good or bad for the individual soul."

You say (1) there is an intermediate state called Hades and (2) the Church's prayers assist the souls there in some way.

This is ambiguous on when the release of these souls will take place? When do you believe the release will take place?

We hold, (1) if they are never released, then that is hell. (2) if they are released before judgment, then that is purgatory. What is being questioned is whether the Prison is Eternal or Temporary?

An Eternal Prison is essentially Hell. A Temporal Prison is essentially Purgatory.

If you disagree with the assertion that a Temporal Prison of Spirits (recall 1 Pet 3:18-19) is Purgatory, then we will discuss that. For Catholics two things are dogmatically defined regarding Purgatory by the Council of Florence, "Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/ecumenical-council-of-florence-1438-1445-1461

(1) if penitent people die in the Love of God but without having made satisfaction for past sins, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains. and (2) the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains. Do you disagree with either?

Can you explain why Patriarch Dositheus, at the Council of Jerusalem said earlier, "We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not." The matter for discussion here is whether the release of souls from their prison takes place before the final Resurrection.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2020, 01:18:06 PM »
The teaching is that everyone remains in Hades until the Last Judgment and the General Resurrection when souls are reunited with their bodies. Some with be Resurrected into the Kingdom, while others depart to hell.

There is no emphasis in the Orthodox teaching that souls must make "satisfaction for past sins." And how the prayers of the faithful avail those who have reposed is not set out in detail.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 06:54:01 PM by ermy_law »
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2020, 08:45:13 AM »
A Novena based on the Chaplet taught to St. Gertrude the Great to efficaciously relieve the Holy Souls:


Btw, can anyone look at the terrible fires in the display of the above video and doubt what Purgatory is?

Anyway, as a brief rejoinder continuing the earlier discussion, can you explain the Synod of Jerusalem?

If satisfactions (just another word for penance/penitential works) have no place in Orthodoxy, why did Orthodox Patriarch Dositheus of Jerusalem say, "And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but have repented - while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed." Have you studied the historical context of this Council, Ermy? The Calvinists had claimed the Eastern Church agrees with them rather than Rome.

It was in that historical context, with the opportunity to agree either with Rome against Protestantism, or with Protestantism against Rome, that the Eastern Church, using similar expressions as the Council of Florence (on satisfaction, fruits of repentance etc, as can be studied by comparing the two declarations), almost entirely agreed with Rome. This has been noted by many students of that 1672 Council, like the one I quoted: "The souls of those who die in a state of penitence (metanoesantes), without having brought forth fruits of repentance, or satisfactions (hikanopoiesis), depart into Hades (aperchesthai eis adou), and there they must suffer the punishment for their sins; but they may be delivered by the prayers of the priests ... The liberation from this intervening state of purification will take place before the resurrection and the general judgment, but the time is unknown. This is essentially the Romish doctrine of purgatory... In all these important points the Synod of Jerusalem again essentially agrees with the Church of Rome"

The Council also mentions mortal sins. If you agree with mortal/venial sin distinction, that also shows there must be a Purgatory. For those with venial sins cannot go to Heaven without being purified, but neither can they go to Hell for eternity, for they have not sinned unto death (Biblical expression, see 1 Jn 5). Therefore, they must go to an intermediate state temporarily, which we call Purgatory.

The concept of penance for mortal sins (which both Catholics and Orthodox have traditionally admitted) also shows there must be some temporary prison. Consider two mortal sinners who both commit e.g. adultery and both repent and are forgiven in the confessional but assigned penance. One completes the penance; the second does not. Where will the first go? Not to eternal hell, because he was forgiven in the confessional. Not to temporary hell either, because he completed his penance. He goes to heaven. Where will the second go? Not to hell, but not to heaven immediately either. He will have to complete that penance after death. And that temporary place of expiation where souls go who have not done penance on earth is called Purgatory. St. Paul says adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God; hence unrepentant adulterers go to eternal hell.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2020, 09:18:09 AM »
Can you tell me which Orthodox churches have internalized what you've quoted from the Synod of Jerusalem? Have you seen this get a lot of traction in the Orthodox doctrinal books that you've read?
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2020, 10:35:49 AM »
Patriarch Dositheus is an official spokesman of the Orthodox Church. Are you an official spokesman of the Orthodox Church? When you claimed I was saying something not said by the Catholic Church or Her Saints, I cited the Saints, and especially Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine, an official spokesman of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, to show what is Her official teaching. What official source can you show me that rejects Patriarch Dositheus' confession? When someone takes Tradition seriously, the doctrine is clear in East and West.

Here is more from Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine, on behalf of the Catholic Church, showing the Doctrine in Scripture and Tradition:

New Advent:"According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.) ...


"In the fourth century in the West, Ambrose insists in his commentary on St. Paul (1 Corinthians 3) on the existence of purgatory, and in his masterly funeral oration (De obitu Theodosii), thus prays for the soul of the departed emperor: "Give, O Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints. . . . I loved him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord, to which his deserts call him" (P.L., XVI, col. 1397). St. Augustine is clearer even than his master. He describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc., and in the resurrection he says there will be some who "have gone through these pains, to which the spirits of the dead are liable" (City of God XXI.24). Thus at the close of the fourth century:

  • not only were prayers for the dead found in all the Liturgies, but the Fathers asserted that such practice was from the Apostles themselves;
  • those who were helped by the prayers of the faithful and by the celebration of the Holy Mysteries were in a place of purgation;
    from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord".
  • So clear is this patristic Tradition that those who do not believe in purgatory have been unable to bring any serious difficulties from the writings of the Fathers. The passages cited to the contrary either do not touch the question at all, or are so lacking in clearness that they cannot offset the perfectly open expression of the doctrine as found in the very Fathers who are quoted as holding contrary opinions (Bellarmine "De Purg.", lib. I, cap. xiii)."
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2020, 10:43:38 AM »
So you believe that everything that every patriarch has ever said was stated as an "official statement" of what the Orthodox Church teaches? That's simply incorrect. As a result, there's no need to address what this patriarch said since it's not something that seems to have found its way into Orthodox teaching or practice.

I get that is difficult (impossible?) for you to understand, but that's the way things work in Orthodoxy.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2020, 10:45:27 AM »
Reason and justice itself show not all undergo penance in the intermediate state until the very Day of Judgment, but only some.

Let's say 20 years of penance is established by the Church for one mortal sin. Person A commits one mortal sin. Then, he repents of his sin completely, does penance for 19 years, and fully intended to complete the whole 20 years. According to you, this person will be in Hades till the day of Judgment, which may be tens of thousands of years away? That would be an injustice. He will be delivered from there and translated to the "Holy Mount of the Lord", which is Paradise, when the penitential works equivalent to one year are offered on his behalf.

Let's take another Person B. Though baptized, he lives 100 years and commits scores of mortal sin every day. In the last day of his life, by a Miracle of Grace, and the Prayers of the Church, he is snatched, as it were, from hell, and repents but does not do any penance at all. Will both Person A and Person B according to you be in Hades/Hell for a duration as long as the time from now to the Day of Judgment?

That is a contrary to justice. Each person will be in the intermediate state for the time required to complete his own penance. Person B may very well have to remain in a temporary prison until judgment day, and only very generous souls, who offer up many Masses, prayers, sacrifices, almsgiving, indulgences etc etc etc on his behalf would be able to release him, which would definitely take a long time. But everyone will not be there forever. Lack of belief in Purgatory and the possibility of hasty release from it clearly slackens zeal and leads to lukewarmness. St. Pio is a model for Catholics.

St. Pio: "Padre Paolino da Casacalenda

Padre Pio was in the common fireplace room at the convent in 1917 when he saw an old man sitting near him. The man said: "I am Pietro Di Mauro, nicknamed Precoco. I died on September 18, 1886, in this friary in cell #4, in a fire. The Lord let me come to you from Purgatory. If tomorrow you say the Mass for me, I will go to Paradise." [29] [30] [31] http://caccioppoli.com/St.%20Padre%20Pio%20Purgatory.html

Edit: @Ermy_Law, show me a counter-statement of equal weight, then, if you have it.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2020, 10:47:18 AM »
A counter-statement of what? I've told you what the Orthodox teaching on the afterlife is.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2020, 10:53:09 AM »
Patriarch Dositheus says one thing, you say another. Whom should I believe? Imagine if I'd said something contrary to Cardinal St. Robert Bellarmine. I was accused of doing so, but as I showed, I had not. A counter-statement could be some statement by another Patriarch.

Answer the question on Person A and Person B: do both go to the intermediate state until the Day of Judgment? Patriarch Dositheus even says there will be release for some before the resurrection; the Patriarch's statement is eminently just and reasonable, and I believe it.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2020, 10:55:01 AM »
The Council of Jerusalem, 1672, was meant to be an official statement of Orthodox Faith contra Protestantism. To say it is not authoritative as a representation of Orthodox belief belies history: http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

"A Synod of Eastern Orthodox Churches was called in Jerusalem in 1672 to refute the position of Cyril Lucaris, Patriarch of Constantinople, who had published a Confession in which he attempted to express Orthodox beliefs in terms of the predestination beliefs of Calvinism.  From a Reformation perspective, he had also challenged some of the important religious practices of the Eastern churches, such as the veneration of icons and prayers to the saints. Orthodox leaders contended that the Confession of Cyril was a forgery perpetrated by Calvinists to spread their influence among Eastern churches. They presented quotations from known writings of Cyril to show that he had not held the positions expressed in the Confession.  In addition, they argued that the Confession was not an official pronouncement by an Orthodox Patriarch.

The Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 soundly rejected any further attempts at reformulation of Orthodox teachings and strengthened Orthodox beliefs against both the Protestant Reformation and Catholicism. The Synod produced its own confession, the Confession of Dositheus (Patriarch of Jerusalem), in which point by point it refuted Cyril's' eighteen points. In addition it added four catechetical style questions that defended the restriction of reading and study of Scripture to the priests, defended the role of tradition, as well as a lengthy defense of the veneration of icons and prayers to the saints ...

Dositheus, by the mercy of God, Patriarch of Jerusalem, to those that ask and inquire concerning the faith and worship of the Greeks, that is of the Eastern Church, how it thinks concerning the Orthodox faith, in the common name of all Christians subject to our Apostolic Throne, and of the Orthodox worshippers that are sojourning in this holy and great city of Jerusalem (with whom the whole Catholic Church agrees in all that concerns the faith) publishes this concise Confession, for a testimony both before God and before man, with a sincere conscience, and devoid of all dissimulation."
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:56:49 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/