Author Topic: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.  (Read 1701 times)

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Taken in its most plain sense, 1 Cor 3:13-15 plainly declares that there is a Purgatorial fire, in which certain lesser sins are purged. "[13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." This is that prison of which the Lord speaks into which the adversary, the devil, will try to cast us, and from which no man goes forth until he has paid the last farthing; thus St. Caesarius, St. Cyprian and several other Fathers. Then, the Lord Himself says one particular sin is forgiven neither in this world, nor even in the world to come; from which the holy Fathers, such as St. Augustine, St. Isidore and Pope St. Gregory the Great, deduce or infer that other lesser sins, that is not the mortal sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, are forgiven in the world to come, i.e. in Purgatory. These same Fathers apply those words of 1 Cor 3:13-15 to the lesser sins, or venial sins, needing to be burned up in the fire.

The CE explains: "There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (City of God XXI.24). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15: ... it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.)." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Given all this, why do some Protestants, and some Orthodox, still deny the Apostolic, Biblical, Catholic and Patristic Doctrine of Purgatory? Some other Fathers: https://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/purgatory-church-fathers.php

Origen: "If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter ... It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Tertullian: That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]).

Cyprian: It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem: Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For We believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom: Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned .is worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf (Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).

St. Clement: "In the other life there will be two fires, a 'devouring and consuming' one for the incorrigible, and for the rest, a fire that 'sanctifies' and 'does not consume, like the fire of the forge,' a 'prudent, intelligent' fire which penetrates the soul that passes through it." (Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 8.6, c. before 215 A.D.)

St. Basil the Great: "...and if they [i.e., Christians who die] are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained.  If, however, they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest."  (Basil, Homilies and Psalms, 370 A.D.)

And St. Basil's own brother, St. Gregory of Nyssa declares: "...he [the departed soul] is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by purifying fire."  (Sermon on the Dead)
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Thanked: 472 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2020, 05:54:27 PM »
Quote
Origen: "If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter ... It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

You do know that Origen was condemned for his doctrine on soteriological fire by at least two Ecumenical Councils (Fifth and Sixth), right?

Quote
And St. Basil's own brother, St. Gregory of Nyssa declares: "...he [the departed soul] is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by purifying fire."  (Sermon on the Dead)

Saint Gregory of Nyssa had universalist views before they were condemned as heresy, and was a disciple of Origen; he's referring to universal salvation, not Purgatory.



Aside from those, these quick-quotes do not imply purgation of sins via a fire in of itself, which can be expedited through indulgences. Nor does it imply that the fire is a creation of God. Nor does it imply that this "detainment" is something separate than Hades (that is, Pre-Last Judgment Hell).

Mark of Ephesus exegeted similar passages and came to a much different result.

Quote
To this we answer the following: Of the fact that those reposed in faith are without doubt helped by the Liturgies and prayers and almsgiving performed for them, and that this custom has been in force from antiquity, there is the testimony of many and various utterances of the Teachers, both Latin and Greek, spoken and written at various times and in various places. But that souls are delivered thanks to a certain purgatorial suffering and temporal fire which possess such (a purgatorial) power and has the character of an help–this we do not find either in the Scriptures or in the prayers and hymns for the dead, or in the words of the Teachers. But we have received that even the souls which are held in hell are already given over to eternal torments, whether in actual fact and experience or in hopeless expectation of such, as can be aided and given a certain small help, although in the sense of completely loosing them from torment or giving hope for a final deliverance. And this is shown from the words of the great Macarius the Egyptian ascetic who, finding a skull in the desert, was instructed by it concerning this by the action of Diving Power. And Basil the Great, in the prayers read at Pentecost, writes literally the following: “Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell [ literally in Greek”Hade”], granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them, and that Thou wilt send down Thy consolation” (Third Kneeling Prayer at Vespers).

But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though they have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place (for this, as we have aid, has not at all been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body, thanks only to fear, as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows; while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, either while remaining in the same earthly place, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or — if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration — they are kept in hell, but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard.

All such ones, we affirm, are helped by the prayers and Liturgies performed for them, with the cooperation of the Divine Goodness and Love for mankind. This Divine cooperation immediately disdains and remits some sins, those committed out of human weakness, as Dionysius the Great (the Areopagite) says in the “Reflections of the Mystery of those Reposed in Faith” (in The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, VII, 7); while other sins, after a certain time, by righteous judgments it either likewise releases and forgives — and that completely — or lightens the responsibility for them until that final Judgment. And therefore we see no necessity whatever for any other punishment or for a cleansing fire; for some are cleansed by fear, while others are devoured by the gnawing of conscience with more torment than any fire, and still others are cleansed only the very terror before the Divine Glory and the uncertainty as to what the future will be. And that this is much more tormenting and punishing than anything else, experience itself shows, and St. John Chrysostom testifies to us in almost all or at least most of his moral homilies, which affirm this, as likewise does the divine ascetic Dorotheus in hsi homily “On the Conscience…”

2. And so, we entreat God and believe to deliver the departed from (eternal torment), and not from any other torment or fire apart from those torments and that fire which have been proclaimed to be forever. And that, moreover, the souls of the departed are delivered by prayer from confinement in hell, as if from a certain prison, is testified, among many others, by Theophanes the Confessor, called the Branded (for the words of his testimony for the Icon of Christ, words written on his forehead, he sealed by blood). In one of the canons for the reposed he thus prays for them: “Deliver, O Saviour, Thy slaves who are in the hell of tears and sighing” (Octoechos, Saturday canon for the reposed, Tone 8, Canticle 6, Glory).

All of these things are what is vital in an Orthodox or Protestant critique of the afterlife, for the Scriptures do not imply any of these things (without reading into certain passages contexts which the passages themselves do not supply), and much doctrinal development for Purgatory started in the Pre-Schism West (especially found in Saint Gregory the Great's Dialogues) and continued onward with the Scholasticism of the Roman Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 06:03:06 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 06:56:53 AM »
Another clear Biblical example of prayers for the departed are found in 2 Maccabees, centuries before the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

"2 Macc 12:43 "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, 44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

Luther knew this book was opposed to his relentless war on the holy Doctrine of Purgatory: "Martin Luther said: "I am so great an enemy to the second book of the Maccabees, and to Esther, that I wish they had not come to us at all" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Maccabees#Canonicity Most modern Protestants reject prayers for the faithful departed thoroughly. Thta is the logical consequence of declaring war on Purgatory. The question is why Orthodox and Protestants who do pray for the departed agree with it.

Quote from: ReturnOL
You do know that Origen was condemned for his doctrine on soteriological fire by at least two Ecumenical Councils (Fifth and Sixth), right?

Rather, teaching universalism was condemned by those Councils. But the Catholic Church doesn't teach universalism. She teaches Purgatory, which is the only way to harmonize St. Paul's statement that some souls are saved by fire with the falsehood of universalism. Consider this syllogism: Major - Either some souls are saved by fire, or all souls are saved by fire. Minor - But all souls are not saved by fire. Conclusion - Therefore, only some are so saved.

Quote
Saint Gregory of Nyssa had universalist views ...

Well, some dispute that. But at any rate, St. Augustine and another Saint Gregory, St. Gregory the Great, as you yourself noted, Live, seamlessly adopted this (and St. Gregory the Great was writing after EC V) purgatorial fire and applied it not to all sins but only lesser ones.

"Gregory the Great also argued for the existence, before Judgment, of a purgatorius ignis (a cleansing fire) to purge away minor faults (wood, hay, stubble) not mortal sins (iron, bronze, lead).[62]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory You would have read this, but you can read it again here if you want: http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/0590-0604,_SS_Gregorius_I_Magnus,_Dialogorum_Libri_IV-De_Vita_et_Miraculis_...,_LT.pdf

Quote
via a fire in of itself

(1) St. Cyprian, (2) St. Augustine, (3) ST. Caesurius, (4) St. Gregory the Great, (5) St. Isidore of Seville certainly taught precisely that. That's 5 Patristic Saint Witnesses. How many do you want? Sacred Scripture says, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall stand." (Deut 19:15) We admit all the Greek witnesses, do you admit the Latin?

Quote
And Basil the Great, in the prayers read at Pentecost, writes literally the following: “Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell [ literally in Greek”Hade”], granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them, and that Thou wilt send down Thy consolation” (Third Kneeling Prayer at Vespers).

This also we can agree. Some in the East especially considered hell itself to be divided into two "compartments" or "divisions", of which the upper part of Hades is Purgatory, and the lower is the hell of the damned from which no release will take place. If release is possible, then it is not this lower part of hell proper. In other words, you are merely calling as Hades what we call Purgatory. Either that, or you are teaching the release of all from hell proper itself, which is Universalism. That's why I said you need Purgatory to avoid Universalism.

The Council of Jerusalem, 1672: "And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not." http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Thanked: 472 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 12:46:47 PM »
Quote from: ReturnOL
You do know that Origen was condemned for his doctrine on soteriological fire by at least two Ecumenical Councils (Fifth and Sixth), right?

Rather, teaching universalism was condemned by those Councils. But the Catholic Church doesn't teach universalism. She teaches Purgatory, which is the only way to harmonize St. Paul's statement that some souls are saved by fire with the falsehood of universalism. Consider this syllogism: Major - Either some souls are saved by fire, or all souls are saved by fire. Minor - But all souls are not saved by fire. Conclusion - Therefore, only some are so saved.

In your "major" "minor" syllogistic argument, you are assuming that the "fire" discussed is your own system of purgatory. Exactly what I'm trying to dispute.

The Orthodox, for example, interpret the fire of Hell and the light of Paradise as identical, and interpret Saint Paul as such "with a fire that burns wood but refines gold." Hence also why the Saints have halos and the Holy Spirit brought fire on Pentecost. It's the Glory of God.

Quote
Quote
Saint Gregory of Nyssa had universalist views ...

Well, some dispute that. But at any rate, St. Augustine and another Saint Gregory, St. Gregory the Great, as you yourself noted, Live, seamlessly adopted this (and St. Gregory the Great was writing after EC V) purgatorial fire and applied it not to all sins but only lesser ones.

"Gregory the Great also argued for the existence, before Judgment, of a purgatorius ignis (a cleansing fire) to purge away minor faults (wood, hay, stubble) not mortal sins (iron, bronze, lead).[62]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory You would have read this, but you can read it again here if you want: http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/0590-0604,_SS_Gregorius_I_Magnus,_Dialogorum_Libri_IV-De_Vita_et_Miraculis_...,_LT.pdf


The only thing of dispute for Saint Gregory of Nyssa is the question of whether his own writings were his own.

Also, I have yet to see Saint Augustine defend Purgatory, and again, your quote from Saint Gregory the Great is extremely misleading. I have read the Dialogues entirely. I can tell you that Saint Gregory the Great does not use the Scholastic distinction of "Mortal Sin" and "Venial Sin." Yes, he does use the terms "lesser sins" and "more grievous sins", but to use such terminology with Scholastic connotations is to imply a theology which wasn't fully developed at that point.

Quote
via a fire in of itself

Quote
(1) St. Cyprian, (2) St. Augustine, (3) ST. Caesurius, (4) St. Gregory the Great, (5) St. Isidore of Seville certainly taught precisely that. That's 5 Patristic Saint Witnesses. How many do you want? Sacred Scripture says, "in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall stand." (Deut 19:15) We admit all the Greek witnesses, do you admit the Latin?

I can name 3 Church Fathers who taught that angels had relations with humans which caused the Flood. Does that mean it's dogma?

But anyways, the idea of accepting Greek witnesses - that's a lie. Good luck reading Absolute Divine Simplicity into the Cappadocians or Saint John Damascus; St. Thomas Aquinas actually uses Mamoimedes as a greater authority for that doctrine in the Summa and says that Saint John Damascus, along with much of the Cappadocian Fathers, is wrong.

Despite the fact that I will argue anyways that, with the exception of Saint Gregory the Great and maybe Irenaeus (that's debatable), all your other citations do not suggest that.

Nor have you found in the Church Fathers the idea of Indulgences which expediate the pains and sufferings of this vague and undefined "fire."

Quote
And Basil the Great, in the prayers read at Pentecost, writes literally the following: “Who also, on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in hell [ literally in Greek”Hade”], granting us a great hope of improvement for those who are imprisoned from the defilements which have imprisoned them, and that Thou wilt send down Thy consolation” (Third Kneeling Prayer at Vespers).

This also we can agree. Some in the East especially considered hell itself to be divided into two "compartments" or "divisions", of which the upper part of Hades is Purgatory, and the lower is the hell of the damned from which no release will take place. If release is possible, then it is not this lower part of hell proper. In other words, you are merely calling as Hades what we call Purgatory. Either that, or you are teaching the release of all from hell proper itself, which is Universalism. That's why I said you need Purgatory to avoid Universalism.

The Council of Jerusalem, 1672: "And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented — by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not." http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

Nope.

That's simply Thomas Aquinas's theory.

In the New Testament Greek, you will find two different words for "Hell." The Easterners understand the difference between the two as the Pre-Judgment State of Hell (Hades) and the Post-Judgment State of Hell (Gehenna), the two being distinguishable by one involving purely the soul, the other involving both the soul and the body. They are both are associated with the punishment of the damned, and the Easterners understand the unlikely potentiality for people in the former state to escape and repent; for the latter, however, there is none.


Also, there is nothing contested with the Council of Jerusalem's decrees. That doesn't dogmatize purgatorial fire.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 12:51:17 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Gentile
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Thanked: 472 times
  • An Excommunicant
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 12:54:47 PM »
I can fully agree that, in both East and West, there was universal common ground which understood that those with lesser faults could be purified in some way via torments, presumably of those in Hades. However, both the East and West have developed that in different ways in what exactly that means, much like both Churches did in so many other areas when you have more than a thousand years of theological development.
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2020, 07:58:50 AM »
I can fully agree that, in both East and West, there was universal common ground which understood that those with lesser faults could be purified in some way via torments, presumably of those in Hades. However, both the East and West have developed that in different ways in what exactly that means, much like both Churches did in so many other areas when you have more than a thousand years of theological development.

This is good. Then that purification of lesser faults in Hades is simply what we call Purgatory or purgatorial purification in divine fire.

So, let's take the Saints one by one, then, starting with St. Cyprian:

Do you have any objections to this? "It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord"?

St. Cyprian says, (1) some attain to glory straightaway, (2) others are cast into prison, and do not leave till they pay the uttermost farthing. (we affirm, any place from which release is possible is intrinsically purgatorial. This is not heaven, because heaven is not a prison; but it is not hell of the damned either, because from there no release is possible. Therefore, syllogistically, it follows that it is some purgatorial intermediate state) (3) next, that some, by long suffering for sins, are cleansed and long purged in fire. (4) that some, indeed, are even in suspense until the Day of Judgment, as we believe some will remain in Purgatory till the Last Day, while others, again, (5) are at once Crowned by the Lord, as for e.g. the Immaculate Virgin Mary (Rev 12:1) is Crowned in Heaven by the Lord, as a Reward for Her Spotless Sinlessness, over which Purgatory has never had, nor could ever have, any power.

So, what would you say to the testimony of St. Cyprian? (1) that he did believe in Purgatory, but you disagree with him? (2) That he didn't believe sins are purged in fire by long suffering (3) That he affirmed all sinners in purgatory remain there till the Day of Judgment?

God Bless.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 08:17:30 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2020, 04:00:22 AM »
And not only the ancient Saints, but also recent Saints, have said very clearly, from their Experience and their Faith, there is a Purgatory:

""The souls in Purgatory pray for us, and their prayers are even more effective than ours, because they are accompanied by their suffering. So, let's pray for them, and let's pray them to pray for us." "The souls in Purgatory repay the prayers that we say for them." "When we pray for the souls in Purgatory we will always get something back." [18]
 
Souls from Purgatory

In 1922 Bishop Alberto Costa asked Padre Pio if he had ever seen a soul in Purgatory. Padre Pio: "I have seen so many of them that they don't scare me anymore."[19]
" http://caccioppoli.com/St.%20Padre%20Pio%20Purgatory.html

"Dear Suffering Friends

“How grateful I should be,” writes St. Margaret Mary in her Life and Writings II, “if you would help me by your prayers to relieve my ‘dear suffering friends,’ for so I call them. There is nothing I would not do or suffer to help them. I assure you they are not ungrateful.”

When St. Margaret Mary writes of her “dear suffering friends,” the phrase resonates with me. I’ve spent so many hours near tombstones that the souls now feel like old friends."

From: https://catholicexchange.com/padre-pio-purgatory-praying-souls-cemetery

And: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/devotions/divine-mercy-novena-eighth-day-13374

"Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice."   

Most Merciful Jesus, You Yourself have said that You desire mercy; so I bring into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls in Purgatory, souls who are very dear to You, and yet, who must make retribution to Your justice. May the streams of Blood and Water which gushed forth from Your Heart put out the flames of Purgatory, that there, too, the power of Your mercy may be celebrated.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls suffering in Purgatory, who are enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. I beg You, by the sorrowful Passion of Jesus Your Son, and by all the bitterness with which His most sacred Soul was flooded: Manifest Your mercy to the souls who are under Your just scrutiny. Look upon them in no other way but only through the Wounds of Jesus, Your dearly beloved Son; for we firmly believe that there is no limit to Your goodness and compassion. Amen.


Anyway, if the passage in St. Cyprian is admitted, I'll move on to St. Augustine in my next post after some time. God Bless.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2020, 04:30:15 AM »
Here are 5 texts on purifying fire or temporary punishments after death, from St. Augustine, St. Caesarius, and St. Gregory respectively.

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth.” Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

“For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,–not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man’s graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another’s wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.” Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).

“But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession…For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, “They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.’ But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,’ and to those on the other side, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,’ and ‘These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,’ it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal.” Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

“If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay.” Ceasarius of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542).

“Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven ‘either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.” Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594). https://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory/#I_The_Early_Churchs_Belief_in_Purgatory
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2020, 09:23:00 AM »
Reading this statement of Origen again, it almost appears as if, in this period of his life, Origen believed only the baptized would be saved, which is orthodox i.e. Catholic: "As John stood near the Jordan among those who came to be baptized, accepting those who confessed their vices and their sins and rejecting the rest ... so will the Lord Jesus Christ stand in a river of fire next to a flaming sword and Baptize all those who should go to Paradise after they die, but who lack purgation... But those who do not bear the mark of the first Baptism will not be baptized in the bath of fire. One must first be Baptized in water and Spirit so that,  when the river of fire is reached, the marks of the baths of water and Spirit will remain as signs that one is worthy of receiving the Baptism of fire in Jesus Christ." (Origen, Commentary on Luke, 24th Homily, before 253 A.D)" But he may have changed his mind later on; I don't know, I'll have to see.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2020, 02:27:52 PM »
On Indulgences being present in the Eastern Churches and being called Absolution Certificates:

"Absolution Certificates as Eastern Equivalent of Indulgences: "The practice of issuing indulgences, having existed unofficially at first, received official confirmation at the Constantinople Council of 1727. The Council was called in response to increasing Latin propaganda, spreading mainly in Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine, and Egypt. In the thirteenth clause of "The Confession of Faith" from the Council, the text of which was compiled by Patriarch Chrysanthus of Jerusalem and was signed by Patriarchs Paisius II of Constantinople, Sylvester of Antioch, and Chrysanthus of Jerusalem, and other hierarchs in Constantinople at the time who participated in the Council, said, "The power of the forgiveness of sins, which is termed by the Eastern Church of Christ Absolution Certificates when given in writing, but by the Latins Indulgences, is given to the Holy Church by Christ. These Absolution Certificates are issued in the whole Catholic Church by the four most holy Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem." https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Thanked: 113 times
  • Religion: Catholic (SSPX Attendee)
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2020, 04:30:59 PM »
On Indulgences being present in the Eastern Churches and being called Absolution Certificates... and their subsequent condemnation by a Council:

"Indulgences as a means of enrichment were condemned at the Council of Constantinople in the year 1838. That Council, like the Council of the year 1727, was devoted to the extermination of Latin dogmas and usages. Its main theme was the Unia. An encyclical, published by the Council, was signed by Patriarchs Gregory VI of Constantinople and Patriarch Athanasius of Jerusalem. It was also signed by eleven hierarchs of the Synod of Constantinople. The text was also sent to the absent Patriarchs, Hierotheus I of Alexandria and Methodius of Antioch." https://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2020, 09:50:19 AM »
As a means of enrichment, yes. That means indulgences should not be sinfully misused for profiteering. A clear abuse. Indulgences are spiritual. They are meant for spiritual progress and growth.

Famous Plenary Indulgences today are (1) the Way of the Cross, (2) 15 Decade Rosary, (3) at least 30 Mins of Eucharistic Adoration. All clearly spiritual, meritorious and satisfactory practices.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Thanked: 113 times
  • Religion: Catholic (SSPX Attendee)
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2020, 11:30:45 AM »
Your argument -- that the undivided Church believed in indulgences -- is untrue. And your citation to some Orthodox accepting the idea in the late Second Millennium is undermined by the rejection of the idea in council.

As with pretty much all of your posts, if they're convincing at all, they're only convincing to people who already buy what you're selling. Or people who can't be bothered to look at sources for themselves.
 
The following users thanked this post: TheReturnofLive

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5594
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 02:39:04 AM »
I'm not selling anything. I'm trying to help give some of you the free gift of grace of eternal life, in Jesus Christ and His Church, which some of you seem to have gone away from, chasing each and every novelty and heresy. Purgatory is the Doctrine of the Ancient Fathers.

Here is Pope St. Gregory the Great: "we must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.66 Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime: for when St. Paul saith, that Christ is the foundation: and by and by addeth: And if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: the work of every one, of what kind it is, the fire shall try. If any man's work abide which he built thereupon, he shall receive reward; if any mans work burn, he shall suffer detriment, but himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.67 For although these words may be understood of the fire of tribulation, which men suffer in this world: yet if any will interpret them of the fire of Purgatory, which |234 shall be in the next life: then must he carefully consider, that the Apostle said not that he may be saved by fire, that buildeth upon this foundation iron, brass, or lead, that is, the greater sort of sins, and therefore more hard, and consequently not remissible in that place: but wood, hay, stubble, that is, little and very light sins, which the fire doth easily consume. Yet we have here further to consider, that none can be there purged, no, not for the least sins that be, unless in his lifetime he deserved by virtuous works to find such favour in that place." http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/gregory_04_dialogues_book4.htm#C39 (Chapter 39, whether there be any fire of purgatory in the next world).

If you believe and know the Truth firmly, it's to your own advantage, and you will progress more in sanctification. If not, it's up to you. Many, many Eastern Churches have known the Truth and returned to Catholic Communion with Rome. AT the Union of Brest in 1591, this was decreed, "We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church." See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_purgatory

Indulgences are a logical consequence of the Church's power to forgive sins - if She can forgive the eternal punishment, She can also retain or remit, in whole or in part, the temporal effects of sin, as the Lord's Word to Her imply: the 18th century council clearly said all 4 eastern Patriarchs admitted this. "The power of the forgiveness of sins, which is termed by the Eastern Church of Christ Absolution Certificates when given in writing, but by the Latins Indulgences, is given to the Holy Church by Christ. These Absolution Certificates are issued in the whole Catholic Church by the four most holy Patriarchs: Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem." Either (1) all Eastern Churches fell into heresy here, or (2) Purgatory is a true dogma, and the Church has power of Forgiveness and Indulgence. It took them one century to correct the abuse of using them for enrichment, but abusus non tollit usum, is all that needs to be said about that.

The Lord Jesus said it best: ""Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice."
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline ermy_law

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • Thanked: 113 times
  • Religion: Catholic (SSPX Attendee)
Re: Ancient Church Fathers on the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory.
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2020, 09:55:42 AM »
I feel like you either don't understand the Roman Catholic doctrine of indulgences very well, or you're being intentionally disingenuous.
 
The following users thanked this post: abc123