Author Topic: Orthodoxy and the Canons of the Council of Sardica on Roman Primacy.  (Read 267 times)

Offline Xavier

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How do those who believe in or sympathize with the claims of Greek or Russian or Syrian Orthodoxy answer the Canons of the Early Council of Sardica? Taken in its most plain sense, it speaks of a Roman Primacy of Jurisdiction i.e. Judging, in honor of the memory of St. Peter the Apostle. St. Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, was present at this Council, and himself often made use of this right of appeal.

The Canons say that, whenever Bishops have a dispute, the Pope of Rome can appoint Bishops or Priests as Legates and Judges for a retrial. This right was very often made use of in the later centuries; even in Ecumenical Councils. St. Cyril used this right against Nestorius.

Here's Wiki for a summary: "The appeal canons – 3b, 3c, 4, 7 – along with canon 17 "provided recourse to assistance by the bishop of Rome for bishops who claimed unfair treatment from judgement by their peers."[25]

Canon 3b: if a bishop is the complainant in a case against another bishop of his province, neither the complainant nor the accused can ask a bishop from another province to judge the case.[vi]
Canon 3c: if a bishop is convicted of an offence by a verdict in a case, and if the convicted bishop objects to the verdict and seeks recourse by asking for reconsideration, then the bishops who judged the case – the trial court – should "honour the memory of St. Peter the Apostle" and write to the bishop of Rome about the case; if the bishop of Rome – the court of second instance – decides that the case should be retried, then "let that be done, and let him appoint judges;" if the bishop of Rome decides that the case should not be retried, then he shall confirm the verdict.[vii]
Canon 4: if a bishop is sentenced with deposition in a case by a verdict "of those bishops who have sees in neighbouring places," and if the deposed bishop "announces that his case is to be examined in the city of Rome," then the execution of the sentence is suspended, in that a replacement bishop shall not be ordained to the see of the deposed bishop until after the case has "been determined in the judgment of" the bishop of Rome.[viii]
Canon 7: if a bishop is deposed from his office by bishops of his region acting as a court, and if the deposed bishop takes refuge with the bishop of Rome and seeks recourse by asking the bishop of Rome for a retrial, and if the bishop of Rome decides that the case should be retried; then the bishop of Rome may write to those bishops of a neighbouring province to investigate and conduct a retrial. The deposed bishop may ask the bishop of Rome to delegate priests to the retrial; at his discretion, the bishop of Rome can send priests acting as legates with his authority to serve as judges in cases where the bishop of Rome decides that the bishops of a neighbouring province alone are insufficient.[ix]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Serdica#Canons
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Orthodoxy and the Canons of the Council of Sardica on Roman Primacy.
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2020, 12:57:55 PM »
Keep pretending that appellate jurisdiction, based in a primacy of honour and being considered to have been a perpetual seat of orthodoxy, is your supreme universal jurisdiction and presents a problem for Eastern Orthodoxy. This is why no Eastern Orthodox takes you or Roman apologists who employ the same tactics seriously and why your spamming of their forums is the subject of a running joke.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Orthodoxy and the Canons of the Council of Sardica on Roman Primacy.
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2020, 01:07:01 PM »
Quote
i.e. Judging,

Note how in canon 3 the pope isn't cited as passing judgment on the issue under consideration but only in passing judgment on holding a re-trial, over which he does not himself judge but designates those who will.

Incidentally, canon 28 of Chalcedon grants the same privileges to Constantinople. But what's most interesting is that these needed to be spelled out in a regional council at all; if this was tradition, considered such by divine appointment and right, it would have been a given that they would have appealed to Rome.
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: Orthodoxy and the Canons of the Council of Sardica on Roman Primacy.
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2020, 02:03:22 PM »
The Fathers teach the supremacy of the pope—see below.  Hence why Newman for example left the Anglican sect and returned to the full bosom of the Church, after reading the Fathers.   Or many EO churches who have already returned to Rome in recent times.  Those trolling SD need to be honest.  If abc for example in another thread insists on the very best Catholic study of Scripture on subjects like justification, Church authority, etc, if they would humbly read as Newman did the Fathers (who were Catholic because of their union with Rome), I am confident they too would consider coming back to the Church as well.  And by the way Kreutzritter, I am going to ask again that you stop insulting Xavier or anyone else here.


Saint Jerome: (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).

>“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails.”

Saint Jerome: (Against Jovinianus 1:26 [A.D. 393])

>But you say, Matthew 16:18 the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism.

Saint Irenaeus - (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

>“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition”

Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)

>And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair [of Rome] which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine.

St. Proclus, Patriarch of Constantinople, disciple of St. John Chrysostom (434) (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276).

>That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God.

Emperor Justinian (520-533) - (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).

>[Writing to Pope John II]: Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches.

Emperor Justinian (520-533) - (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).

>Let your Apostleship show that you have worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor, the salvation of all.

St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650) - (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

>How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.

St. Maximus the Confessor (c. 650) - (Maximus, Letter to Peter, in Mansi x, 692).

>If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and supreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world.

St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828) - (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).

>Without whom [the Romans presiding in the seventh Council] a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usuage, ever obtain full approval or currency. For it is they [the Popes of Rome] who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of headship among the Apostles.

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople - (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

>I witness now before God and men, they have torn themselves away from the Body of Christ, from the Surpreme See [Rome], in which Christ placed the keys of the Faith, against which the gates of hell (I mean the mouth of heretics) have not prevailed, and never will until the Consummation, according to the promise of Him Who cannot lie. Let the blessed and Apostolic Paschal (Pope St. Paschal I) rejoice therefore, for he has fulfilled the work of Peter. (Theodore Bk. II. Ep. 63).

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople - (Theodore the Studite, Patr. Graec. 99, 1420)

>Let him (Patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople) assemble a synod of those with whom he has been at variance, if it is impossible that representatives of the other Patriarchs should be present, a thing which might certainly be if the Emperor should wish the Western Patriarch (the Roman Pope) to be present, to whom is given authority over an ecumenical synod; but let him make peace and union by sending his synodical letters to the prelate of the First See.

Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450) - (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).

>I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Orthodoxy and the Canons of the Council of Sardica on Roman Primacy.
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2020, 02:03:51 PM »
Heh. There are Orthodox who have either returned to the Roman Catholic Church, or favor complete Re-Union with Her. That is in progress.

It's a Grace to hear the True Faith preached to you. How you respond to it determines only your own dispositions. It cannot alter the Truth.

God gave Catholic Christians the right and duty to learn their Faith well and to teach it everywhere, to all people. The Great Commission.

Quote
Keep pretending that appellate jurisdiction, based in a primacy of honour and being considered to have been a perpetual seat of orthodoxy, is your supreme universal jurisdiction

What is the supposed distinction? If the Pope of Rome has authority to appoint Bishops to Judge decisions made by lower tribunals, it is obvious he has Primacy of Jurisdiction over both Judges and Judged. A Supreme Court Judge has Primacy over Judges of the High Court. That is the way in which the Pope has Jurisdiction over Bishops.

Quote
Note how in canon 3 the pope isn't cited as passing judgment on the issue under consideration but only in passing judgment on holding a re-trial, over which he does not himself judge but designates those who will.

The right to appoint whomever he wills to pass judgment (the Popes often did this by creating legates who were the ancient equivalent of Cardinals) is even greater. If a President has a right to appoint anyone he likes to judge a case, would that not be primacy of jurisdiction? Of course it would.

Why is this Primatial right given to one one else besides the Roman Pontiff? Why not to some Eastern Patriarch? Simply because the Pope has primacy over all of them.

Quote
canon 28 of Chalcedon grants the same privileges to Constantinople

No, it doesn't. It said Constantinople shall be next to Rome. But that canon itself needed to be sent to Rome for Confirmation, as Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople knew, and it was never confirmed. And yet it was a much lesser right. This is a supreme right. Eutyches himself appealed to it,

"I take refuge, therefore, with you, the defender of religion and abhorrer of such factions. ...I beseech you not to be prejudiced against me by their insidious designs about me, but to pronounce the sentence which shall seem to you right upon the Faith." (Eutyches to Pope Leo, Ep 21. as did Patriarch St. Flavian),

"When I began to appeal to the throne of the Apostolic See of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, and to the whole sacred synod, which is obedient to Your Holiness, at once a crowd of soldiers surrounded me and barred my way when I wished to take refuge at the holy altar." ~ (Patriarch Flavian of Constantinople to Pope Leo).

And Papal Primacy is writ large all over the Council of Chalcedon in so many other ways. From the Fathers saying "Peter has spoken through Leo" to the Council itself saying "Of whom you were Chief, as Head to the members". http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a35.htm

"Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness". -- Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132 (on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon).

So, the matter was settled; and, for the next 6 centuries, all Eastern churches speak of only 27 canons of Chalcedon -- the 28th Canon being rendered null and void by Rome's "line item veto." This is supported by all the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in 551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) -- all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon."
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 02:14:43 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/