Author Topic: St. Irenaeus 5-Minute Refutation of Protestantism and Orthodoxy alike.  (Read 496 times)

Offline Xavier

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How do Protestants, Orthodox, or adherents of any Gnostic sect, address this simple refutation of All Heresies by St. Irenaeus of Lyons?

"A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.


1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the Tradition of the Apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the Apostles instituted Bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the Succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the Apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that Tradition derived from the Apostles, of the very great, thevery ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem][/u].

3. The Blessed Apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their Traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the Apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the Tradition which it had lately received from the Apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this Succession, the ecclesiastical Tradition from the Apostles, and the Preaching of the Truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying Faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the Apostles until now, and handed down in Truth.

4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the Apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time — a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles — that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

St. Irenaeus is also, for those who are ignorant of it, one of the holy Church Fathers through whom we know when the Gospels were writeten, and by whom, and that there are only 4 to be included in the Canon - all things denied by liberals, modernists and other heretics.

The apostles did not commence to preach the Gospel, or to place anything on record until they were endowed with the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit. They preached one God alone, Maker of heaven and earth.


1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed perfect knowledge, as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God.

Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.

2. These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ the Son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103301.htm
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:55:19 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.
 

Offline Heinrich

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By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.

This is a fragment, i.e. it is missing a subject, Krusty the Klown.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Against Heresies has a manuscript fragment from 200 A.D. "Against Heresies can be dated to sometime between 174 and 189 CE, as the list of the Bishops of Rome includes Eleutherius, but not his successor Victor.[8] The earliest manuscript fragment of Against Heresies, P. Oxy. 405, dates to around 200 CE.[9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Heresies_(Irenaeus)

The Exodus was written around 1500 B.C. It's earliest manuscripts are much later. This is a second century work by Church Father St. Irenaeus.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 01:41:08 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Against Heresies has a manuscript fragment from 200 A.D. "Against Heresies can be dated to sometime between 174 and 189 CE, as the list of the Bishops of Rome includes Eleutherius, but not his successor Victor.[8] The earliest manuscript fragment of Against Heresies, P. Oxy. 405, dates to around 200 CE.[9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Heresies_(Irenaeus)

The Exodus was written around 1500 B.C. It's earliest manuscripts are much later. This is a second century work by Church Father St. Irenaeus.

Get back to me when you learn the difference between a manuscript and a fragment and stop straw-manning me.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.

This is a fragment, i.e. it is missing a subject, Krusty the Klown.

The text above is from the Latin manuscripts. It's not a fragment, Hun.
 

Offline Heinrich

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By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.

This is a fragment, i.e. it is missing a subject, Krusty the Klown.

The text above is from the Latin manuscripts. It's not a fragment, Hun.

Retracted. It is Easter and my actions were wrong, ibid. 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 02:27:47 PM by Heinrich »
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline St.Justin

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Against Heresies has a manuscript fragment from 200 A.D. "Against Heresies can be dated to sometime between 174 and 189 CE, as the list of the Bishops of Rome includes Eleutherius, but not his successor Victor.[8] The earliest manuscript fragment of Against Heresies, P. Oxy. 405, dates to around 200 CE.[9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Heresies_(Irenaeus)

The Exodus was written around 1500 B.C. It's earliest manuscripts are much later. This is a second century work by Church Father St. Irenaeus.

Get back to me when you learn the difference between a manuscript and a fragment and stop straw-manning me.

I think you should read up on how manuscripts and fragments are studied and put to use. It is quite a Fascinating field. Not as haphazard as you seem to think.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.

This is a fragment, i.e. it is missing a subject, Krusty the Klown.

The text above is from the Latin manuscripts. It's not a fragment, Hun.

It is indeed a fragment, fagmeister. Don't call me hun, I don't walk with my pants saggy like you.

You must be a special kind, Hun. It's the entirety of Book III, Chapter 3 of Against Heresies, which exists in manuscript form in Latin. It's not a fragment. If you can point to the text quoted by Xavier existing in fragment form in Greek dating to before the 4th century, by all means, please provide a citation.

 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Against Heresies has a manuscript fragment from 200 A.D. "Against Heresies can be dated to sometime between 174 and 189 CE, as the list of the Bishops of Rome includes Eleutherius, but not his successor Victor.[8] The earliest manuscript fragment of Against Heresies, P. Oxy. 405, dates to around 200 CE.[9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Against_Heresies_(Irenaeus)

The Exodus was written around 1500 B.C. It's earliest manuscripts are much later. This is a second century work by Church Father St. Irenaeus.

Get back to me when you learn the difference between a manuscript and a fragment and stop straw-manning me.

I think you should read up on how manuscripts and fragments are studied and put to use. It is quite a Fascinating field. Not as haphazard as you seem to think.

I haven't said a word to that effect. I'm merely answering a question Xavier asked about this alleged refutation. If he doesn't like it, I don't care. I haven't even said it's my position or that I believe it inauthentic. He does this stuff everywhere, though, trying to draw people into debates, asking questions and then arguing back. Orhtodox forums are full of his repeated postings. There's always a reason to reject something like this, and Xavier doesn't seem to get that his arguments don't constitute proofs.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 02:32:16 PM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: St. Irenaeus 5-Minute Refutation of Protestantism and Orthodoxy alike.
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2020, 02:50:38 PM »
By not simply taking Irenaeus's alleged claims and opinions as true, or a text with no earlier manuscript than the 4th century at face value.

This is a fragment, i.e. it is missing a subject, Krusty the Klown.

I thought Heinrich was criticizing the grammar of Kreuzritter's post. It is a fragment, that is, not a complete sentence.
 
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