Author Topic: Hit me with your best shot  (Read 3780 times)

Offline abc123

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Hit me with your best shot
« on: April 07, 2020, 11:54:55 AM »
I have looked for the best Catholic apologetics I could find. Unfortunately most of what turns up is either Catholic Answers or other equally unconvincing sources.

I am interested in reading original texts that deal primarily with the issues raised during the Reformation. I want to read the best refutations of Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide etc. I want texts which deal directly with exegeting the disputed scriptural texts without appealing to "cause I said so" Church authority.

I've watched hours upon hours of debates with various Reformed apologists debating representatives of the RCC position and keep coming away wondering if this is the best the Catholic side can muster.

So....lets have it. Theologically, scripturally and historically astute works which take serious the opposing argument and seek to refute it.

Please no walls of texts. Just reference the work and I can look it up.

So as to save some time: I've read the catechism of Trent, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Not By Faith Alone, Jesus, Peter and the Keys.

I'm more interested in works penned closer to the time of the 16th century. Please also, where possible, recommend books you have read and can personally vouch for.

Thanks
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2020, 12:05:21 PM »
Fine. Start with the Doctrine of the Real Presence, denied by most of the Deformers. I don't need to cite any Saint, howsoever great, for Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself teaches it most plainly, in the Gospel of St. John the Apostle. I use the Protestant King James version below,

Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 6, Verses 48 to 60:

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 02:34:39 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
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Offline abc123

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 12:10:05 PM »
Fine. Start with the Doctrine of the Real Presence, denied by most of the deformers. I don't need to cite any Saint, howsoever great, for Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself teaches it most plainly, in the Gospel of St. John the Apostle. I use the Protestant King James version below,

Gospel according to St. John, Chapter 6, Verses 48 to 60:

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?



Reading comprehension not your strong suit, is it.

For Pete's sake re-read what I wrote.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:13:49 PM by abc123 »
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 12:19:33 PM »
If you want commentary and argumentation based on that and other disputed Scriptural passages, History of Heresies and their Refutation by Saint Alphonsus is an excellent read. It deals with all heresies, those of Arius, Macedonius Nestorius, Luther, Calvin, Zwingly etc.

I can also spare you the cost and effort of purchasing the book to read it if you want, as it is online here: https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/

You can begin here, Chapter XI, the Heresies of the Sixteenth Century, as the earlier chapters deal with those of preceding centuries.

https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/luther/

https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/errors-of-luther/ on the Real Presence in particular.

Christ in the Eucharist is really the principal reason all separated Christians should become Catholic again. Only the Catholic Church can give you the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, after absolving you of all your sins in the Sacrament of Confession (see Jn 20:23).
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
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Offline abc123

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 12:23:13 PM »
If you want commentary and argumentation based on that and other disputed Scriptural passages, History of Heresies and their Refutation by Saint Alphonsus is an excellent read. It deals with all heresies, those of Arius, Macedonius Nestorius, Luther, Calvin, Zwingly etc.

I can also spare you the cost and effort of purchasing the book to read it if you want, as it is online here: https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/

You can begin here, Chapter XI, the Heresies of the Sixteenth Century, as the earlier chapters deal with those of preceding centuries.

https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/luther/

https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/history-of-heresies-their-refutation-st-alphonsus/errors-of-luther/ on the Real Presence in particular.

Christ in the Eucharist is really the principal reason all separated Christians should become Catholic again. Only the Catholic Church can give you the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, after absolving you of all your sins in the Sacrament of Confession (see Jn 20:23).

Thank you. That's more like it.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 02:24:59 PM »
Catholic Controversy by St. Francis De Sales is also excellent:"After being repeatedly rebuffed in his attempts to re-evangelize Calvinist Protestants who would not listen to Catholic preaching for fear of reprisals, St. Francis turned to writing leaflets and inserting them into copies of his sermons, which he then posted on walls, slipped under doors and handing to whomever he could. Four years later, almost 72,000 had returned to the ancient Catholic Faith! These tracts have been compiled into a book and given the title The Catholic Controversy. The works are still as fresh and powerful today as they were then, and give some of the most compelling arguments against Protestantism that have ever been written, presenting a defense of the Catholic Faith that in some respects has never been equaled." https://sensusfidelium.us/apologetics/the-catholic-controversy-st-francis-de-sales/

« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 02:49:11 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 02:30:03 PM »
Rev. Father Suarez, a Great Jesuit Theologian, wrote a book entitled Defense of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith against the errors of Anglicanism:

Brief Excerpt: "1. Since the appellation ‘Catholic’ has always distinguished the Church of Christ from the Synagogue of Satan, and the true faith from heresy, as the symbols of the faith sufficiently prove as well as the tradition of the Fathers (some of whom we have referred to and we will refer to more in this chapter), for that reason the king of England, desiring to avoid the note of heresy as he showed in his Preface, assumes the title of defender of the Catholic Faith, whereby he professes to believe and to hold the Catholic Faith. But since it has been established that he is defender and champion of the particular sect of Anglicanism, if we show that it is not the Catholic Faith, we will also prove that he is not defender of the Catholic Faith; and he will become such a defender at the time when, after coming to know the truth, he has returned with piety and sincerity to the bosom and obedience of the Catholic Church (which may God accomplish).

But although, from what has been said so far, it has become sufficiently clear that a sect that does not have a firm foundation of faith can in no way be the true Church or profess the Catholic Faith, nevertheless, to make the fact more evidently clear, we have deemed it worthwhile to show the same thing through the most ancient tradition of the Church by a plain deduction of the very appellation of ‘the Catholic Faith’. But in this attribute two things can be considered, namely both the name itself, or the denominations taken from it, and the things or the property signified by the name, and from these two things diverse arguments are customarily adopted by the Fathers for recognizing the true faith or Church; and therefore we will speak first about the name and afterwards about the reason for the name." http://www.aristotelophile.com/Books/Translations/Suarez%20Defense%20Whole.pdf
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2020, 04:42:16 PM »
If you have read, digested, disseminated and discerned everything you said you consumed, and you aren't convinced, what else can mere mortals do?
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2020, 04:52:00 PM »
If you have read, digested, disseminated and discerned everything you said you consumed, and you aren't convinced, what else can mere mortals do?

That was pretty much my reaction too.  The absurdity of Sola Scriptura is so obvious that I could figure it out when I was a teenage student at a Fundamentalist Bible College.
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Offline abc123

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 05:30:18 PM »
If you have read, digested, disseminated and discerned everything you said you consumed, and you aren't convinced, what else can mere mortals do?

That was pretty much my reaction too.  The absurdity of Sola Scriptura is so obvious that I could figure it out when I was a teenage student at a Fundamentalist Bible College.

Which tells me you don't understand the doctrine as enunciated by the Reformers.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to invite debate but was hoping for the best resources that Roman theologians could bring forth. I'm waiting.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020, 05:58:58 PM »
Which tells me you don't understand the doctrine as enunciated by the Reformers.

? Am I supposed to?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
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"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 07:29:34 PM »

[/quote]

Which tells me you don't understand the doctrine as enunciated by the Reformers.
[/quote]

The “Reformers” were deranged.  Why on Earth would you follow them and apostasize from the true Church?  Especially for the “Anglicans” of all people. I pray you will come back abc.
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2020, 07:51:01 PM »
Apostolicae curae
 
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Offline abc123

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2020, 08:02:53 PM »
Which tells me you don't understand the doctrine as enunciated by the Reformers.

? Am I supposed to?

Typically when opposing a position it behooves one to understand the opposition in order to refute it. Surprisingly calling someone a wicked heretic or offering disingenuous platitudes such as "I pray for your return so you don't go to Hell" aren't persuading.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Hit me with your best shot
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2020, 08:07:21 PM »
Anyway, I wasn't trying to invite debate but was hoping for the best resources that Roman theologians could bring forth. I'm waiting.

While I understand your point, Abc, perhaps wording things like "hit me with your best shot" is not the best approach. Humility is the basis for all profitable knowledge.

Which tells me you don't understand the doctrine as enunciated by the Reformers.

Am I supposed to?

Usually, if you wish to engage meaningfully with an idea, whichever it may be, it's better to understand it first.
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