Author Topic: Effective Strategies for Catholic Evangelism: Reaching Muslims with the Gospel.  (Read 235 times)

Offline Xavier

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Dear Brothers and Sisters in Our Lord Jesus Christ, already Christians and Muslims together account for and amount to nearly 4.5 billion souls of the 7.7 who live on Planet Earth. Christians at 2.5 billion, and Muslims at 2 billion. Statistics and Projections suggest that Islamism, owing to a higher birth rate - at the same time that some careless Christians are aborting and contracepting themselves into oblivion, foolishly disregarding God's Law and their duties to the Gospel of Christ and the Kingdom's increase all over the globe - will reach 3.5 billion by 2050, around the same number of Christians worldwide at the time as well. When the world's population is near 10 billion, over 7 billion, then, will be Christians and Muslims. The recent data also showed Atheism is a dying and passing phenomenon. The future belongs to Religion, but it is up to us Christians, who must henceforth work with the greatest urgency on that, to ensure it will be the Christian Religion, and that the Islamist Religion is overcome, by securing millions more conversions of Muslims to Christ every single year.

"How many Muslims are there? Where do they live?

There were 1.8 billion Muslims in the world as of 2015 – roughly 24% of the global population – according to a Pew Research Center estimate. But while Islam is currently the world’s second-largest religion (after Christianity), it is the fastest-growing major religion. Indeed, if current demographic trends continue, the number of Muslims is expected to exceed the number of Christians by the end of this century." https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

The hour is later than we think. Even Pew's projections don't tell the whole story, and other studies show it will be worse. Would even 1 million more annual conversions of Muslims to Christ be enough to prevent Islamism from gaining superiority over Christians? Hardly. 1 million conversions a year is merely 30 million in 30 years. Only something like at least 10 million more conversions every year - which comes to 300 million conversions by 2050 - would at least ensure Christianity can still maintain Christ's Peace rather than Mohammed's Reign of Terror in the world for at least a decade longer. For then Christians would be 3.8 billion and Muslims 3.2 billion, the future being changed from the earlier prediction. But in order for Christianity to really Triumph over Islam, we need something like a 100 million conversions every year, in order that the plague and scourge of Radical Islamism may be completely eradicated and extirpated from the Earth within 3 decades. This could avoid World War III. That is the challenge for Catholic Missionaries ahead of us.

Strategies for Ending and Winning what could break out as World War III, by launching a spiritual prayer and evangelism Crusade first, dedicated to winning our Muslim friends to salvation in Jesus Christ:

1. Beginning with Jesus Christ Our Lord (or Isa-Al-Masih, as our Muslim friends call Him, in Arabic - they consider Him a Miracle-Working-Prophet, and even the Virgin-Born-Messiah, but not the Divine Son of God): We can begin with the Life and Testimony of Jesus Christ Our Lord Himself, since Muslims already accept Him as Prophet, and even the Messiah, and born of a Virgin. Our Evangelism can begin with the words of the Prophet Isaiah, written 700 Years before Our Lord, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.", that is, God with us. Since they believe in Prophesy, we can point out the Virgin Birth was foretold, and that the Primary Reason for the Virgin Birth was that Emmanuel, that is, God with us, was going to become Incarnate and dwell with us. So the Virgin Birth is a proof of the Divinity of Christ, according to Prophesy. St. Thomas Aquinas tells us that to be successful in the work of Evangelism, we must argue from one article of Faith - which the opponent concedes - to another, which he still denies. Thus, with Protestants, we argue from Christ's Divinity to the Eucharist. With Muslims, we can argue, on the strength of Prophesy, from Christ's Virgin Birth to His Divinity as Incarnate Son of God.

2. From the Messianic Prophesies showing the Messiah was always to be Divine, not a mere human prophet: This is the proof adduced by Our Divine Redeemer Himself, to the Pharisees, and the Jews, concerning whom He had implied (Mat 16), that faith that He was a mere prophet did not please Him truly, but only the saving faith that confessed Him to be the divine Son of the Living God, as St. Peter did; and for which St. Peter was named the Rock of the Church.

In Gospel of St. Matthew, Chapter 22, we read "[41] And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, [42] Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David's. [43] He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying: [44] The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool? [45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?. Here, the Divine Son of God, relying on a Prophesy of King David (whom Muslims accept as a Prophet, calling him Dawood in their Quran), in Psa 109, written 1000 B.C, brilliantly argues and forcefully demonstrates that the Messiah is the Divine Lord Himself, not a mere human son of a king or a mere prophet, but the Divine Son of God and the Lord of David.

Such that, as we read in the same chapter, "[46] And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions." Following Our Lord, and St. Paul also, we Christians must similarly use the Sacred Scriptures and the Messianic Prophesies prudently and wisely in our Christian Evangelism, to save and to win souls for our Redeemer. So we can show from these words of Prophets written and preserved centuries earlier, that have come true, that the Messiah was always meant to be Divine. Some will claim the original texts of King David have been lost, but that is an ahistorical absurdity, as they are preserved independently and separately by Jews and Christians alike, were quoted explicitly by Our Lord Jesus Christ, and are even admitted as his by various secularist scholars.

[3] Beginning with Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary (or Miryam, as She is called in the Quran - the only Woman mentioned in it; and to Whom a whole Chapter is dedicated in it); as also with Our Lady of Fatima; Fatima being a town in Portugal named after a Muslim woman who converted to Christ, married a Christian Prince and became a Catholic princess. Not a coincidence, as Abp. Sheen said:

This third prophetic approach may end up being the most successful of all. It is based on Our Lady's own approach, arguably, and the reason She chose that specific town in Portugal, for Her famous Apparition there; as Abp. Sheen (prophetically?) argued. Indeed, various Evangelists and Missionaries have already reported "We are in the first time ever of mass conversions of Muslims to Christ". And we have every reason, in this internet and digital media age, as untold millions can now read the Bible and the Gospels, the Church Fathers and early Christian History, and also have access to critiques and questioning the Quran, to believe that will increase and be sustained in the years to come.

But as for the argument, here is one possible way to make it - we've already seen the argument from the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, which (ironically) the Muslims concede (though most Protestants deny): Mary was a Virgin in giving birth and throughout Her Life. That His Mother should be so special indicates and proves that the Son being born is also altogether special and unique. His specialty can only be that He was not mere man, but Perfect God becoming Perfect Man, that necessitated His Mother remaining a Perpetual Virgin. But other arguments can also be made from Our Lady's Historical Apparitions, confirmed by numerous public miracles before countless eyewitnesses (in fact, Muslims often come and pray before Our Lady's Shrines; some even ask Her to intercede for God with them; and often we see that in time, these same Muslims to salvation in Christ; Our Lady obtaining the greatest gift, and highest benefit, of salvation in Her Divine Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, for them) where Our Lady has often proved the supernatural origin of the Rosary, for e.g. (where we confess Her to be Mother of God, and thus Her Son as True God), and in other ways, by special favors and signal Graces, shown and proved that She is God's First Witness to the Catholic Faith and to the True Incarnate Divinity of Christ Our Lord.

And therefore many Catholic Evangelists are of the view that Our Lady will be instrumental in bringing Muslims to faith in Her Son. Thoughts on all this from people here?

Edit: Article: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/armstrong/muslims-are-converting-to-christianity-in-record-numbers

"National Catholic Register, Patti Armstrong: “We are in a time of the first ever mass conversions of Muslims,” Father Mitch Pacwa SJ told me in a phone interview. “God is doing a mighty work among them.”

Pacwa is a host for EWTN radio and TV, a frequent pilgrim guide to the Holy Land and is fluent in 13 languages including Arabic. He is considered an expert on the Middle East and produced the DVD Christianity & Islam: Are We at War? and co-authored Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics.

Pacwa said he began hearing talk of conversions to Christianity around 2005 on Al Jazeera Television, the Arabic news satellite TV channel with 80 bureaus around the world. “They were reporting on the mass conversions of Muslims—as many as 6-8 million—in sub-Saharan, Africa, and they have repeated the warning every year,” he said. “I’ve confirmed it with Africans I know who have told me again and again about conversions in places like Nigeria, Uganda, Mali … that’s why Boko Haram has become so active. They are actually quite scared and trying to terrorize. But the very act of terrorizing people has ended up with people becoming more disgusted with Islam."
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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All three points are irrelevant if you don't establish the historical reliability and the trustworthiness of Scripture first. And then the plausibility of the historical testimony of the early Church.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Philip G.

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Grow neck beard.  Shave mustache.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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All three points are irrelevant if you don't establish the historical reliability and the trustworthiness of Scripture first. And then the plausibility of the historical testimony of the early Church.

"Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?"
 

Offline Xavier

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As discussed earlier, Jesus Christ wants to save our Muslim friends, but He will do that by delivering them from Islamism and from the shackles of this perfidious sect of apostasy that to this day persecutes Christians terribly.

Wiki on conversions to Christianity from Judaism and Islamism: "Studies and reports[124] estimate significantly more people have converted from Islam to Christianity in the 21st century than at any other point in Islamic history.[125] According to 2015 Believers in Christ from a Muslim Background: A Global Census studyestimates 10.2 million Muslim convert to Christianityaround the world.[97] Conversion into Christianity have also been well documented, and reports estimate that hundreds of thousands of Muslims convert to Christianity annually. Significant number of Muslims converted to Christianity can be found in Afghanistan,[126] Albania,[127] Azerbaijan,[128][129]Algeria,[130] Belgium,[131] Bulgaria,[132][133] France,[134]Germany,[135] Indonesia,[136] Iran,[137][138][139][140]Kazakhstan,[141] Kyrgyzstan,[142] Malaysia,[143]Morocco,[144][145] Netherlands,[146] Russia,[147] Saudi Arabia,[148] Tunisia,[149] Turkey,[150][151][152][153]Kosovo,[154] the United States,[155] and [[Central Asia.[156][157] Many of the Muslims who converts to Christianity face social rejection or imprisonment and sometimes even murder or other punishments for becoming Christians in countries with Muslim majority.[158] In Asia,Due to various missionaries the number of people following Christianity is increasing.In India,Due to British rule,there was increase of christianity in India.Goa and Kerala were one of the first states were Christianity was introduced by Portuguese. The 19th century saw at least 250,000 Jews convert to Christianity according to existing records of various societies.[159] Data from the Pew Research Center has it that, as of 2013, about 1.6 million adult American Jews identify themselves as Christians, most as Protestants.[160][161][162] According to the same data, most of the Jews who identify themselves as some sort of Christian (1.6 million) were raised as Jews or are Jews by ancestry.[161] According to a 2012 study, 17% of Jews in Russia identify themselves as Christians.[163][164]" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion

St. John Damascene, Doctor of the Church, on Mohammedanism: "But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss. And we remark that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai, with God appearing in the sight of all the people in cloud, and fire, and darkness, and storm. And we say that all the Prophets from Moses on down foretold the coming of Christ and how Christ God (and incarnate Son of God) was to come and to be crucified and die and rise again, and how He was to be the judge of the living and dead. Then, when we say: ‘How is it that this prophet of yours did not come in the same way, with others bearing witness to him? And how is it that God did not in your presence present this man with the book to which you refer, even as He gave the Law to Moses, with the people looking on and the mountain smoking, so that you, too, might have certainty?’ ...

“When we ask again: ‘How is it that when he enjoined us in this book of yours not to do anything or receive anything without witnesses, you did not ask him: “First do you show us by witnesses that you are a prophet and that you have come from God, and show us just what Scriptures there are that testify about you”’—they are ashamed and remain silent.”

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

St. Thomas, Angelic Doctor, on Islamism: "On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth.

On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms."

https://thomasofaquino.blogspot.com/2016/03/on-other-hand-those-who-founded-sects.html

St. John Bosco on Mohammed: Q. What is the difference between the Catholic Church and the Mohammedan one?

St. John Bosco: The difference is very great. Mohamed established his religion with violence and arms; Jesus Christ established His Church with words of peace using His poor disciples. Mohamed incited the passions; Jesus Christ commanded the denial of self.  Mohamed worked no miracles; Jesus Christ worked uncountable miracles in broad daylight and in the presence of countless  multitudes.  Mohamed’s doctrines are ridiculous, immoral and corrupting; Jesus Christ’s are august, sublime and pure. In Mohamed not even one prophecy was fulfilled; in Jesus Christ all were.
 
To sum up, the Christian Religion, in a certain way, renders man happy in this world so as to raise him up to the enjoyment of heaven; Mohamed degrades and dishonours human nature and by placing all happiness in sensual pleasures, reduces man to the level of filthy animals."

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/bosco.htm
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 07:06:09 PM by Xavier »
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

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All three points are irrelevant if you don't establish the historical reliability and the trustworthiness of Scripture first. And then the plausibility of the historical testimony of the early Church.

"Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?"

The point being? Those who criticize the revived Arian heresy of Islamism, condemned by the Councils and the Fathers, that also incorporates circumcision and other Pharisaical Judaizing elements, condemned by the Lord and His Apostles, are supposed to be Pharisees, as Vetus wants to pretend? Hardly. They are doing their Christian duty of opposing harmful errors that keep souls away from Jesus and place themselves in peril.

Notice the Wisdom of Almighty God in inspiring the Holy Bible not through one single Prophet only (e.g. Moses) but through countless several Prophets, Kings, Scribes, Wise Men and Apostles from the Prophets Moses and Joshua to Kings David and Solomon to St. John the Apostle.

Since the prophesy of the Virgin Birth came true (as Muslims will concede), it must have been a true prophecy spoken by an inspired Prophet. But the same prophesy also says Jesus will be God with us. Therefore, we can rightly demonstrate and prove, God Himself revealed and proved through His Prophets for centuries that Jesus Christ, the Virgin Born Son of God, will be God Himself dwelling among His people forever.

By God's Grace, I've helped and seen numerous Muslim friends, who are now Catholic Christian's, brothers and sisters in Christ and His Church, come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus and to Holy Baptism. I know demonstrations like these, though they take effort and time to develop, have great efficacy in ultimately helping our friends see thr Light of Christ, through the Power of God's Grace. If we really love souls and want to save them from hell and for Jesus and help them go to Heaven and enjoy eternal happiness there with Him, how could we not want to save them?
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Those who criticize the revived Arian heresy of Islamism (...) are supposed to be Pharisees, as Vetus wants to pretend?

Homo paleæ.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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All three points are irrelevant if you don't establish the historical reliability and the trustworthiness of Scripture first. And then the plausibility of the historical testimony of the early Church.

"Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?"

The point being? Those who criticize the revived Arian heresy of Islamism, condemned by the Councils and the Fathers, that also incorporates circumcision and other Pharisaical Judaizing elements, condemned by the Lord and His Apostles, are supposed to be Pharisees, as Vetus wants to pretend? Hardly. They are doing their Christian duty of opposing harmful errors that keep souls away from Jesus and place themselves in peril.

That wasn't my point. My point is it's the Church which needs to be established first, because the Scriptures, both in terms of the writings themselves and their canonical authorization, are a product of the Church, in much the same way the gold is the product of the Temple and not the Temple a product of the gold.

It isn't

Scripture --> Church

Rather

Church --> Scripture



Also, I question whether Islam is really Arian; do they really identify Jesus as the created Logos? They are undoubtedly iconoclastic, Judaizing, and paradoxically Docetistic.

Let's not forget that their prostrations are taken right out of Eastern Christianity.


« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 10:39:38 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Xavier

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All three points are irrelevant if you don't establish the historical reliability and the trustworthiness of Scripture first. And then the plausibility of the historical testimony of the early Church.

"Woe to you blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple, is a debtor.
Ye foolish and blind; for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?"

The point being? Those who criticize the revived Arian heresy of Islamism, condemned by the Councils and the Fathers, that also incorporates circumcision and other Pharisaical Judaizing elements, condemned by the Lord and His Apostles, are supposed to be Pharisees, as Vetus wants to pretend? Hardly. They are doing their Christian duty of opposing harmful errors that keep souls away from Jesus and place themselves in peril.

That wasn't my point. My point is it's the Church which needs to be established first, because the Scriptures, both in terms of the writings themselves and their canonical authorization, are a product of the Church, in much the same way the gold is the product of the Temple and not the Temple a product of the gold.

It isn't

Scripture --> Church

Rather

Church --> Scripture

Ok, Live. So do you think an argument like this would be worthwhile. Major: Jesus Christ founded a Church, saying it would last till the end of time (Historical fact). Minor: If there was a new public revelation, the Church would have been replaced and would not last till the end of time. Conclusion: Hence, Islam is mistaken in claiming there was need of it.

The issue would be over whether the major premise will be admitted. Now, even many secular scholars consider the Gospel biographies to be historical works (just like the Islamic Hadiths/Hadees on Mohammed; for e.g. though these were written much later). It is likely St. Matthew and St. Mark were written less than 15 years after Christ's Ascension - there is an old papyrus of St. Mark dating back to 50 A.D. - and therefore are very close to the historical events they relate. So we can show this is historically likely, and that Jesus instituted St. Peter and the Apostles as the First Bishops of His Church, meaning it to last until the end of time, as History shows.

But if it may not be conceded, the next point we can move on to is that regarding the Crucifixion of Christ - this is generally denied by Muslims, but admitted even by secular scholars, as it is found in Jewish and Roman Records of Josephus and Tacitus, for e.g., that Jesus Christ, leader of the Christians, was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Some will say that not Jesus but a substitute was crucified in his place, and the people didn't recognize this from afar; but the fact that St. John the Apostle and Mother Mary, Whom they revere, were eyewitnesses to it makes such a deception unlikely. Besides, what Testimony would Jesus their Prophet be giving if He did something like that? We can say such would be unworthy of Jesus, and that therefore He most certainly did Sacrifice His Life, die and was crucified.

Often, it happens that recognizing the Crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact is the first step in Muslims becoming Christians. I've studied hundreds of personal testimonies of Muslims who have become Christians to be better acquainted with their thinking, and so that we can more effectively help them: here's an illustration of that point. "My questions needed convincing answers and I didn't know who would help me until the pastor recommended a professor at a seminary. As I spoke with the professor and read many books, things started making sense. The Bible had to be accurate because of the Dead Sea Scrolls. One of the Dead Sea Scrolls was the book of Isaiah that dates back to 125 BC. Apart from the Dead Sea Scrolls there are also parts of very old manuscripts of the Gospel according to John and the Gospel according to Matthew that we currently have that are in museums around Europe and the Middle East. I began to read compare the prophesies that were in the Old Testament about the coming of the Messiah and how they were all fulfilled in the New Testament. The Old Testament talks about the Messiah's hands and feet being pierced for man's transgressions, he would be born of a virgin mother, he would be led like a lamb to the slaughter, he would be sold for 30 pieces, he would enter Jerusalem on a donkey, and he would be called the Almighty God and Prince of Peace. These prophesies in the Old Testament and how they were fulfilled in the New Testament lead me to believe in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ." https://www.answering-islam.org/Testimonies/fatima.html

Syllogism: Christ's Crucifixion is a Historical Fact, proven by records and admitted even by secular scholars; witnessed by St. John and Mother Mary. But Islam denies that Jesus was crucified but Christianity maintains it. Hence, Christianity is in accord with historical Truth, but Islamism is against it; and so we should give up Islam and become Christians.

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Also, I question whether Islam is really Arian; do they really identify Jesus as the created Logos?

Good Question. St. John's Gospel is a beautiful refutation of Arianism; it was cited as a mighty proof-text by the Holy Fathers of Nicaea against the Arian Heretics; the Arians were always crushed when St. Athanasius, St. Augustine etc (who also cite Mat 28:19 in Proof, the Baptismal Formula, saying the Lord said "Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", not names, to show that the Three were One; we are baptized in the One Name of the Holy Trinity, of the Lord God One and Triune) had recourse to St. John in particular, and similar texts in St. Matthew, St. Paul and Our Lord's own Words. Some of the early Muslims used to refer to the Gospel (which they call Injil) and some even considered it to have been originally an inspired writing. One of my ex-Muslim friends, Maulvi Suleiman, now a Catholic, says his journey to Christianity really began when he read in the Quran, "So, in case you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to you, then ask the ones who read the Book even before you[!!!] https://quran.com/10/94?translations=17,19,20,21,22,85,18,95,84,101 That is Surah 10:94. The word for Bible literally means Book. This shows that, according to the author of the Quran, those who read the authentic Bible still existed, and Muslims could consult with them for doubts. This is a great verse we St. Thomas Christians make use of in our Evangelism all the time. Later Muslims often just claim "Oh, everything original has been corrupted" but that too is ahistorical.

There is also a verse in the Quran that calls Jesus the Word of God, just like St. John does. Mohammed evidently did not perceive that that was a Christological Title. Many Christian scholars argue - if Jesus is the Word of God, He is Uncreated; morever, since God created all things by His Word, just as St. John says, then all things were created through Jesus - so the Word of God must be Divine. Another passage from the Quran used in Christian Apologetics is that passage were Jesus is said to breathe life into a bird, just as God did into Adam. But, we say, only God can create life, and breathe His Spirit into a creature; if Jesus did, what else follows than that He is God?

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They are undoubtedly iconoclastic, Judaizing, and paradoxically Docetistic.

Agreed.

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Let's not forget that their prostrations are taken right out of Eastern Christianity.



Right. Islam has some nice things; mostly stolen or taken you can say from Eastern Christianity, Prostration, a most beautiful and wonderful custom, being the most prominent among them. We Christians too, both East and West, should often prostrate in love before the God Who has loved us so much in Jesus Christ Our Lord.

You may like this, Live. A Coptic Orthodox Priest, Rev. Father Zakariah Botros, has been instrumental in the conversion of Millions of Muslims to Christianity - God is truly doing a mighty work in our generation, almost never seen or heard of before - such as those recorded here http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/AlJazeerahAfrica.php and is causing an amazing unsuspected revolution in many circles of the Islamic world, that leads so many precious souls to Jesus Christ. Here, Father discusses the Quran's sources.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 02:16:14 AM by Xavier »
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Also, I question whether Islam is really Arian; do they really identify Jesus as the created Logos? They are undoubtedly iconoclastic, Judaizing, and paradoxically Docetistic.

Of course not. It's unfair to Arians, who believe in the divinity of the Son.

Also funny is that Arius's opinion, "If the Father begat the Son, then he who was begotten had a beginning in existence, and from this it follows there was a time when the Son was not", appears to be false because the Son is begotten in eternity; but at the same time, not only is God's act of creation in eternity, but there is no time at all without the existence of the temporal world, so it makes as little sense to say there was a time at which creation was not.