Author Topic: Can God forsake you?  (Read 922 times)

Offline gsas

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Re: Can God forsake you?
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2020, 11:22:21 PM »
And as for the statement that there is nobody in hell who doesn't belong there, I must confess that I am not convinced.  For example, there is the famous wife of the dictator Stalin, who Stalin subjected to endless daily witchcraft to the point that he destroyed her motherly instinct and she was not able to hug her daughter, before this witchcraft has also made her commit suicide.  So how do we derive from doctrine that she is in hell not because she was forced into there, but because she belongs there?  I confess I really don't understand the doctrine, at minimum from the applications point of view.

First, is there a "it's-the-bible-truth" account  of Stalin and Stalin's wife such as this; or is this just an account you have heard (no matter how firmly you believe it). It would be just the story a Satanist WOULD tell to put it firmly in YOUR mind that Satan had such power. In other words: A LIE.

In any case, whatever external actions someone is driven to that he/she can't HELP, the EXTERNAL actions are not SINS, so Satan is the loser.  If someone without blame neglected to hug her child, that would not deserve hell unless she freely willed to HATE her child:  WITCHCRAFT cannot produce hate, because that is moving the WILL, which Satan cannot do. If someone was physically forced over the top of a cliff, that would not deserve hell, because it is not freely willed.

It is a simple matter of Catholic Faith that Satan cannot move the will, gsas.  Put up the big-red-THIS-IS-SATANIC-sign whenever THIS claim (or "Satan can force you to hell") comes up. You are just fooled to think otherwise.

It IS true that people putter in Witchcraft and go to hell but it is because they putter WILLINGLY.
If Stalin's wife did this (were the story true) INDEED SHE COULD BE IN HELL - but it would be BECAUSE SHE BELONGS THERE, and chose it (whether she CHOSE to hate her child or CHOSE to kill herself, it would be HER CHOICE and HER FAULT)

 :pray1:

Right now you appear to believe Satan's lie, gsas. REALIZE that this is what you are doing.

Then let me ask this question.  Do I understand that by the doctrine that you are explaining above, an act of rejecting your child and giving her to satan, maybe even repeatedly, is not a sin, if it is done under some sort of satanic influence, such as for example an influence like what psychiatrists of hypnotherapy use, to program actions into their patients / victims without their knowledge, then provide triggers to make them execute those?  And how are such medical cases induced by psychiatrists related to the doctrine of the will?

No, you don't understand correctly.  The very idea of REJECTING and GIVING your child to Satan implies that you are WILLING evil, and it is your own doing and sin.  REPEATING it indicates MORE WILLING (where you are NOT RESISTING).

God has to judge the individual cases as to what small external things can be  caused by force alone (and so are not sins) and what  partly requires the will (and so a sin, even if  a smaller sin if there is some forced influence.  ("Giving" and "rejecting" are WILLED things not external things)

I don't know about psychiatry and hypnotherapy, and probably shouldn't say more.  But where there is no will there is no sin.

 :pray1:

In that case, is the devil like e.g. an elephant handler?  An elephant handler beats the little elephant badly so that when it grows up very big, it wills to work, instead of just return the beating and go home.

Witchcraft tries to achieve the same thing, through the same emotional manipulations.

But even water boarding can take you to your breaking point and thus change your will into evil if you are subjected to it?

I guess my quedtion is, is it so easy for the devil that he just needs to take everyone to his breaking point?  Seems too easy and then by now everyone would be the devil's possessed slave.  Puzzling.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 11:40:44 PM by gsas »
 

Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Can God forsake you?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2020, 12:19:02 AM »
And as for the statement that there is nobody in hell who doesn't belong there, I must confess that I am not convinced.  For example, there is the famous wife of the dictator Stalin, who Stalin subjected to endless daily witchcraft to the point that he destroyed her motherly instinct and she was not able to hug her daughter, before this witchcraft has also made her commit suicide.  So how do we derive from doctrine that she is in hell not because she was forced into there, but because she belongs there?  I confess I really don't understand the doctrine, at minimum from the applications point of view.

First, is there a "it's-the-bible-truth" account  of Stalin and Stalin's wife such as this; or is this just an account you have heard (no matter how firmly you believe it). It would be just the story a Satanist WOULD tell to put it firmly in YOUR mind that Satan had such power. In other words: A LIE.

In any case, whatever external actions someone is driven to that he/she can't HELP, the EXTERNAL actions are not SINS, so Satan is the loser.  If someone without blame neglected to hug her child, that would not deserve hell unless she freely willed to HATE her child:  WITCHCRAFT cannot produce hate, because that is moving the WILL, which Satan cannot do. If someone was physically forced over the top of a cliff, that would not deserve hell, because it is not freely willed.

It is a simple matter of Catholic Faith that Satan cannot move the will, gsas.  Put up the big-red-THIS-IS-SATANIC-sign whenever THIS claim (or "Satan can force you to hell") comes up. You are just fooled to think otherwise.

It IS true that people putter in Witchcraft and go to hell but it is because they putter WILLINGLY.
If Stalin's wife did this (were the story true) INDEED SHE COULD BE IN HELL - but it would be BECAUSE SHE BELONGS THERE, and chose it (whether she CHOSE to hate her child or CHOSE to kill herself, it would be HER CHOICE and HER FAULT)

 :pray1:

Right now you appear to believe Satan's lie, gsas. REALIZE that this is what you are doing.

Then let me ask this question.  Do I understand that by the doctrine that you are explaining above, an act of rejecting your child and giving her to satan, maybe even repeatedly, is not a sin, if it is done under some sort of satanic influence, such as for example an influence like what psychiatrists of hypnotherapy use, to program actions into their patients / victims without their knowledge, then provide triggers to make them execute those?  And how are such medical cases induced by psychiatrists related to the doctrine of the will?

No, you don't understand correctly.  The very idea of REJECTING and GIVING your child to Satan implies that you are WILLING evil, and it is your own doing and sin.  REPEATING it indicates MORE WILLING (where you are NOT RESISTING).

God has to judge the individual cases as to what small external things can be  caused by force alone (and so are not sins) and what  partly requires the will (and so a sin, even if  a smaller sin if there is some forced influence.  ("Giving" and "rejecting" are WILLED things not external things)

I don't know about psychiatry and hypnotherapy, and probably shouldn't say more.  But where there is no will there is no sin.

 :pray1:

In that case, is the devil like e.g. an elephant handler?  An elephant handler beats the little elephant badly so that when it grows up very big, it wills to work, instead of just return the beating and go home.

Witchcraft tries to achieve the same thing, through the same emotional manipulations.

But even water boarding can take you to your breaking point and thus change your will into evil if you are subjected to it?

I guess my quedtion is, is it so easy for the devil that he just needs to take everyone to his breaking point?  Seems too easy and then by now everyone would be the devil's possessed slave.  Puzzling.

It seems we say the "will is broken" when someone finally does something unwillingly. But then the will is NOT really doing it and is NOT changed into evil.

If thousands of hypnotherapists for days and hours suggest saying "I hate God" someone might  say it but not MEAN it. God alone knows what is MEANT. (Even sub-consciously, underneath layers of foggy untruths perhaps). Satan and psychiatry cannot change that.

Goodness finally belongs to the SOUL, however battered the brain (whether it is psychiatry or mental illness or the external world) God knows it and put it there and the devil cannot steal it. But man's free sin can OK the devil being there.

But prayer is the final answer, of course. So it is NOT easy for the devil. We are free each step of the way to resist him; prayer is always available.

This is hard stuff and I might not have more to say.

 :pray1:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:21:45 AM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Jesus, Mary, I love Thee! Save souls!
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Can God forsake you?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2020, 08:29:54 AM »
Wonderful, GSAS, very happy for you. That Prayer is a True Treasure and we Roman Catholics are blessed to have it and to make use of it.

Here are two other Familiar Prayers, I suggest saying them in Latin especially if you can, from Morning to Night, even if you are at work.

Divine Mercy Prayer: Pater Aeterne, Offero Tibi Corpus et Sanguinem, Animam et Divinitatem, Dilectissimi Filli Tui Domini Nostri Jesu Christi In Propitiatione Pro Peccatis Nostri et Totius Mundi [From Memory; may be slightly off]

That is to say, Eternal Father, we offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, In Atonement for our sins and for those of the whole world". Recall that St. Peter tells us to keep offering spiritual sacrifices to God in Sacred Scripture.

Immeasurably consoles the Pierced Sacred Heart of our Savior, from the which the Infinite Ocean of Divine Mercy flowed forth upon us. Pours Oceans and Oceans of Graces both upon us, our family, our loved ones, the whole world, and the souls in Purgatory. Must be prayed every day by many Catholics most especially for those who are going to die within that day, as they are in most need of Mercy, and have it the least.

St. Gertrude's Prayer: Eternal Father I offer You the Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus, in Union with the Holy Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, especially those who are going to die this Day [Month/Year], for all within my own Home and Family"

Fr. Paul O Sullivan, with Episcopal Imprimatur, wrote that, in Read Me or Rue It, "Our Lord showed St. Gertrude a vast number of souls leaving Purgatory and going to Heaven as a result of this prayer, which the Saint was accustomed to say frequently during the day." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/read-me-or-rue-it-12622

For the same reason that offering the Holy Wounds of Jesus to the Father is immeasurably precious because of Its Infinite Merits, and wins for you also a richer reward and a higher crown in Heaven, so also no one can doubt that the Most Precious Blood of Jesus, Offered to the Eternal Father together with all the Holy Masses of the world, will also win very powerful Graces and will save souls each time.

I've not translated that into Latin yet. Will try to do that later if you wish. But you can always say them in English also as well. God Bles.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 08:34:12 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline Conclavist

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Re: Can God forsake you?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2020, 06:28:47 PM »
"Can God Forsake You?"

Something that comes to mind I wanted to add (but this may be slightly tangential) is: "On the Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More" (by St. Alphonsus de Liguori) https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/on-the-number-of-sins-beyond-which-god-pardons-no-more
 
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