Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew tells Athonites: Catholic Orthodox Re-Union inevitable.  (Read 656 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1189
  • Thanked: 430 times
  • Saint Francis Borgia, pray for us
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
[VI] St. Fulgentius of Ruspe : "By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that She [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing.

You are reading into this an Augustinian view of original sin. That may be proper because St. Fulgentius was a Western Saint, but again, the quote doesn't give that context.

Quote
[VII] as a historical source on the life of the Blessed Mother at age 3, Whose presentation in the Temple we are soon going to celebrate and commemorate, the infancy Gospel attributed to St. Matthew and handed down by Tradition: "And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when She was three years old, She walked with a step so mature, She spoke so perfectly, and spent Her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at Her, and wondered; and She was not reckoned a young infant, but as it were a grown-up person of thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and Her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into Her face. And She occupied Herself constantly with Her wool-work, so that She in Her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that She had set for Herself: From the Morning to the Third Hour She remained in prayer; from the third to the ninth She was occupied with Her weaving; and from the ninth She again applied Herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to Her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand She used to receive food; and thus She became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, She did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before Her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue. She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw Her angry, nor heard Her speaking evil. All Her speech was so full of grace, that Her God was acknowledged to be in Her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and She was anxious lest by any word of Hers She should sin with regard to Her companions. Then She was afraid lest in Her laughter, or the sound of Her beautiful voice, She should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, She should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of Her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in Her salutation, She might cease from praising God; if any one saluted Her, She used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from Her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed Herself only with the food which She daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which She obtained from the priests She divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with Her, and they most diligently obeyed Her. If anyone who was unwell touched Her, the same hour he went home cured.” So we can easily understand Her All-Immaculate Nature, Her great holiness and perfection in preparing the way for Israel before Her Son.

What historical source? The fifth nun this week that has Jesus tell her that Pope Paul VI has a double?

But anyways, nobody denies that she was the holiest of mankind apart from Jesus Christ, and much of the tradition you cite anyways is accepted by the Orthodox as legitimate, visa vi it's finding in the Proto-Evangelium of James. It does nothing to establish the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, however.


Quote
[VIII] Canon 3 of the 649 Lateran Council under Pope St. Martin I calls Mary Immaculate in passing, "Canon 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore Him, her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned."

You literally just shot yourself in the foot by conceding that the West also understood her "incorruptibility" as not Original Sin, but her virginity, which I've demonstrated can by linguistically found in Greek and Russian.

Quote
[IX] Nicaea II, 787 A.D., also confirms the decrees of Ephesus and Chalcedon and calls Mary Immaculate matter-of-factly, "With the Fathers of this synod we confess that he who was incarnate of the immaculate Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary has two natures, recognizing him as perfect God and perfect man, as also the Council of Chalcedon has promulgated," http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3819.htm

Means nothing with the previous post, because we've established that "incorruptible" or "immaculate" can refer to her virginity.

Quote
[X] Finally, St. Symeon the New Theologian, leading exponent of Byzantine Theology, has explained, "[Jesus Christ]being Himself at once God and man, His flesh and soul were and are holy - and beyond holy. God is holy, just as He was and is and shall be, and the Virgin is immaculate, without spot or stain, and so, too, was that rib [namely, Eve,] which was taken from Adam. However the rest of humanity, even though they are His brothers and kin according to the flesh, yet remained even as they were, of dust, and did not immediately become holy and sons of God." Immaculate doesn't just mean Virginal; because the Blessed Virgin is called, even in the East, "The Unique All-Immaculate". There are others who chose, out of love for God, to be virgins consecrated to Him; but She alone among Creatures is the Full of Grace, as St. Gabriel said, which means She is entirely without sin, and All-Immaculate in Soul and Body.

Sweet. But this does nothing to establish Augustinian Original Sin, and that she was born without Augustinian Original Sin via the Treasury of Merits.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 11:23:10 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1189
  • Thanked: 430 times
  • Saint Francis Borgia, pray for us
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Here is some historical and theological evidence that Orthodox Christians in Russia especially once believed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Notice how the doctrine is taught in precise theological terminology - showing the doctrine of original sin was also taken for granted - and how it is especially and specifically said that, by the Gift of God's Grace to His All-Immaculate Mother, Mary Most Holy was All-Pure and exempt from original sin from the Moment of Her Conception, for e.g. in the Council of Moscow 1666 A.D.

1. For e.g. a Theology Journal reviews recent research by Rev. Fr. Christian Kappes, ""Thanks to the correct interpretation of the Greek roots of the doctrine in Nazianzus and Damascene, the East consistently viewed the prepurification at the Annunciation as a positive purity—not a removal of concupiscence, but a superaddition of grace that prepared the Theotokos for the incarnation.  Her sinlessness from birth, conversely, is designated under expressions like “all-holy,” “ever-blameless,” and “all-immaculate.”  The evidence of this Eastern Tradition is an unbroken theological and liturgical transmission of this idea well beyond John Damascene’s time ... Along with this historical revelation, Kappes proves that the first philosophically robust rejection of the immaculate conception among the Orthodox appears in the sixteenth century, and is completely saturated with Thomistic argumentation.  Historically speaking, the immaculate conception now appears more Orthodox than it is Roman Catholic."https://hortulus-journal.com/journal/volume-13-number-1-2017/cuff/

Comment: the author seems to mean, more Eastern than Western.

Similarly. Eastern Orthodox Priest Rev. Fr. A.F. Kimel writes, in reviewing this work, "This belief is encapsulated in the title given to her by St Gregory the Theologian: prokathartheisa (prepurified) ... [St. Gregory says] "He approaches his own image and bears flesh because of my flesh and mingles himself with a rational soul because of my soul, purifying like by like. And in all things he becomes a human being, except sin. He was conceived by the Virgin, who was purified beforehand in both soul and flesh by the Spirit, for it was necessary that procreation be honored and that virginity be honored more. (p. 71)

Kappes notes that when Rufinus translated the Nativity oration into Latin in the late 4th century, he rendered the Greek word prokathartheisa by the Latin word immaculata." From: https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2018/11/14/mary-prokathartheisa-and-the-immaculate-conception/

2. Rev. Fr. Lev Gillet has documented for us, "The Academy of Kiev, with Peter Moghila, Stephen Gavorsky and many others, taught the Immaculate Conception in terms of Latin theology. A confraternity of the Immaculate Conception was established at Polotsk in 1651. The Orthodox members of the confraternity promised to honour the Immaculate Conception of Mary all the days of their life. The Council of Moscow of 1666 approved Simeon Polotsky’s book called The Rod of Direction, in which he said: “Mary was exempt from original sin from the moment of her conception”. (12) https://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-3/

3. Rev. Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck mentions the Eastern Liturgical texts for Dec. 9th. Don't these imply Mary Prokathartheisa, the Panagia and All-Immaculate, was already pre-sanctified and Immaculate on the Day of Her Conception?

"6. Liturgical Expressions: The Eastern Tradition has always considered the Conception of the Theotokos to be a miraculous event. Joachim and Anna, elderly and barren were given by the power of God's blessings on account of their prayers. The Orthodox Churches celebrate Her Nativity on the 8th of September, but the Feast of Mary's Conception was advanced to 9th December. If the principle of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is to be applied to this issue, it seems that Orthodox Hymnography presents Mary as Truly Panagia (All-Holy) entirely free from sin and stain ("Immaculate") from the point of Her Conception. The Liturgical Texts for December 9th exclaim,

This Day, O Faithful, from saintly parents begins to take being the Spotless Lamb, the Most Pure Tabernacle, Mary.

Having conceived the Most-Pure Dove ...

The Unique All-Immaculate [Mary] is today made manifest to the Just by the Angel. He who announced the Conception of the All-Immaculate Virgin gave our human race news of great joy. The prelude of God's Grace falls today [on the day of the Theotokos' Conception by St. Anne] in the Conception of the All-Immaculate"


It is the Immaculate Virgin Who came to Fatima to warn the world of the dreadful scourge of atheistic Communism. It is the Immaculate Mother Who authored the downfall of godless Communism in the former Soviet. It is Mary Immaculate Who will bring Russia home to Rome. She has promised it, and Her Promise will never fail.



This huge wall of text - THIS HUGE WALL OF TEXT - ALMOST SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE DOGMATIC DEFINITION THAT POPE PIUS IX ESTABLISHED AND EACH OF ITS KEY ELEMENTS.

If you want to establish that the Orthodox believed in the Immaculate Conception, you need to prove that

A. The Orthodox believed in an Augustinian understanding of Original Sin, or an equivalent
B. The Orthodox believed in the Treasury of Merits, or an equivalent
C. The Orthodox have a Thomistic view of Grace (lol, good luck with that; the Orthodox condemned such a view via the Palamite synod which excommunicated Barlaam).
D. The Orthodox believed that these three things or their equivalents were used tangentially to create a belief that it is equivalent to the Immaculate Conception.


The only citation that comes close to this is your 17th century Kiev Academy citation, a fact that I am well aware of anyways.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 11:52:25 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1189
  • Thanked: 430 times
  • Saint Francis Borgia, pray for us
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Why am I wasting time when the initial article was something obviously different?

We can discuss the Immaculate Conception and your apologetics elsewhere, but here, I wanted to just demonstrate to you, Xavier, that posting an apologetic article like this cannot come from a place of intellectual honesty.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 11:51:36 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 
The following users thanked this post: abc123

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1189
  • Thanked: 430 times
  • Saint Francis Borgia, pray for us
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
I made a resolution that I'll be less vitriolic, and while I was aggravated by just how bitterly dishonest the initial post was, I shouldn't have reacted this extremely. I apologize, and hopefully, that apology means something in the future, that it means I can change my hostile polemical behavior.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • The Prodigal Son, except I do it at least twice a week
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1189
  • Thanked: 430 times
  • Saint Francis Borgia, pray for us
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
But I'll close with one more point, because I can't help myself:

Definitive proof that the Russian Orthodox Church is controlled by the KGB, and the Roman Catholic Church is a totally independent organization promoting orthodox values:


Sounds like a total communist to me. Something we would never hear our Pope say:



Obviously, it's the Russian Communists today who are promoting ideas that undermine the entire edifice of Christianity, the idea that God should be the center of everything not man! The nerve of him! And we can all hold a Jubilee that Pope Francis is promoting the true gospel, that man is the center of the entire universe and not God.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:04:47 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline abc123

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 967
  • Thanked: 879 times
  • Religion: High church Reformed
I made a resolution that I'll be less vitriolic, and while I was aggravated by just how bitterly dishonest the initial post was, I shouldn't have reacted this extremely. I apologize, and hopefully, that apology means something in the future, that it means I can change my hostile polemical behavior.

I vowed some time ago to stop responding to Xavier because he is either dishonest or a troll. This assessment is not made in anger but is a result of observing how he debates. Never in my life have I seen anything like it really.

Do what you like but for your own sanity you may want to disengage.
"I once laboured hard for the free will of man until the grace of God at length overcame me."- St. Augustine
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5450
  • Thanked: 3740 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Quote from: Live
I made a resolution that I'll be less vitriolic, and while I was aggravated by just how bitterly dishonest the initial post was, I shouldn't have reacted this extremely. I apologize, and hopefully, that apology means something in the future, that it means I can change my hostile polemical behavior.

No worries, Live. I also want to strive to be as non-vitriolic, non-polemical, and as irenic and respectful as possible in discussing these important matters. Do we not all want to see the Gospel Triumph, Christianity flourish, the pro-life movement succeed, Christian persecution be reduced, and all Christendom be united in Truth and Love? Irenic and friendly doctrinal discussion are one necessary prelude to doing that. If someone has some objection to the way in which Catholic Theology is presented, then it's up to us Catholics to understand better, in the light of Universal Tradition, of the Greek, Latin and other Churches, how to formulate doctrine in a universally acceptable way. So that is a work in progress and that is what the Catholic Church has tried to do at Lyons II and Florence, and till today. The Church asks that all the Fathers be studied, Eastern and Western alike.

Quote
You are reading into this an Augustinian view of original sin. That may be proper because St. Fulgentius was a Western Saint, but again, the quote doesn't give that context.

True, St. Fulgentius is a Western Saint, from Africa like St. Augustine, but I hope we all agree first he is a Universal Saint, venerated by Catholics and Orthodox alike. So, if we do, do we agree, as St. Fulgentius said, that Mary as Gratia Plena or Kecharitomene (One in Whom the Giving of Grace is Complete and Full, in the Greek) is exempt from the original sentence and has been Fully Restored to all the Blessings of Grace? This exemption from the original sentence and being Full of Grace is precisely what we call the Immaculate Conception. St. Fulgentius does not mention the words Original Sin here, true, but he just says the Blessed Mother was exempt from it.

You ask, did St. Fulgentius believe in Original Sin? Yes, there's no doubt he did; he says so in his famous Rule of Faith,  St. Fulgentius followed St. Augustine, whom he deeply venerated, to the letter on many points. And again, there's no doubt that the whole African Church accepted the Canons of Carthage on Original Sin. For that matter, as this Orthodox site says, "Eventhough the Council of Carthage was a local North African Council it became Universal when the decrees were added to the 6th ecumenical Council. One of the Canons of that council affirmed the Council of Carthage, and the Council of Carthage Affirmed not only a Canon of Scripture but also the Doctrine of Original sin." http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/council-of-carthage-and-doctrine-of.html

Wiki on St. Fulgentius: "As a theologian, Fulgentius's work shows knowledge of Greek and a strong agreement with Augustine of Hippo."

CE on St. Fulgentius: " St. Fulgentius is saturated with St. Augustine's writings and way of thinking"

In my research, I found this from St. Fulgentius in De Fide, among countless other examples, in PL 688B: "34. Origo vitae malae. - Qualitas autem malae vitae ab infidelitate incipit, quae ab originalis peccati reatu initium sumit." i.e. 34. The origin of evil in life -  the quality or malice that is the beginning of infidelity stems from the guilt of original sin." [reatus and culpa are not the same; reatus is more of a privation, but it is ordinarily translated as guilt]

http://mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/xanfang.php?tabelle=Fulgentius_Ruspensis_cps2&corpus=2&allow_download=0&lang=0

After Carthage, in the Second Council of Orange, under St. Caesarius of Arles, another Augustinian Theologian, also cited Rom 5:12, to explain that original sin, as the death of the soul, was transmitted to all Adam's descendants, as St. Paul the Apostle is saying: "CANON 2. If anyone asserts that Adam's sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom. 5:12). http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html

Can you show me any Western Catholic Theologian, or even any Eastern Catholic Theologian, Father or Church Council for over the first 1000 years, who questioned Original Sin, or denied that Original Sin was remitted in Baptism, as the Council of Carthage said? This is from the Council of Jerusalem under Patriarch Dositheus: "And, therefore, baptism is necessary even for infants, since they also are subject to original sin, and without Baptism are not able to obtain its remission ... And the effects of Baptism are, to speak concisely, firstly, the remission of the hereditary transgression, and of any sins of any kind that the baptized may have committed. Secondly, it delivers him from the eternal punishment, to which he was liable, as well for original sin and for mortal sins he may have individually committed. Thirdly, it gives to the person immortality; for in justifying them from past sins, it makes them temples of God." http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html

I'll get back to the other things subsequently. God Bless.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1455 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
This exemption from the original sentence and being Full of Grace is precisely what we call the Immaculate Conception.

ROL has shown you over and over precisely what the dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception states and entails and what is incompatible with Orthodox theology. You are insufferable.

Quote
St. Fulgentius does not mention the words Original Sin here, true, but he just says the Blessed Mother was exempt from it.

No he doesn't. If he doesn't mention "Original Sin" then he can't have said Mary was exempt from it.

Quote
You ask, did St. Fulgentius believe in Original Sin? Yes, there's no doubt he did; he says so in his famous Rule of Faith,  St. Fulgentius followed St. Augustine, whom he deeply venerated, to the letter on many points.

What?

Quote
And again, there's no doubt that the whole African Church accepted the Canons of Carthage on Original Sin. For that matter, as this Orthodox site says, "Eventhough the Council of Carthage was a local North African Council it became Universal when the decrees were added to the 6th ecumenical Council. One of the Canons of that council affirmed the Council of Carthage, and the Council of Carthage Affirmed not only a Canon of Scripture but also the Doctrine of Original sin." http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/council-of-carthage-and-doctrine-of.html

The Canons of the Council of Carthage do not teach the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin implicit to the definition of the Immaculate Conception, particularly of inherited guilt.

Quote
Wiki on St. Fulgentius: "As a theologian, Fulgentius's work shows knowledge of Greek and a strong agreement with Augustine of Hippo."

CE on St. Fulgentius: " St. Fulgentius is saturated with St. Augustine's writings and way of thinking"

This shows nothing regarding the particular point.

Quote
In my research, I found this from St. Fulgentius in De Fide, among countless other examples, in PL 688B: "34. Origo vitae malae. - Qualitas autem malae vitae ab infidelitate incipit, quae ab originalis peccati reatu initium sumit." i.e. 34. The origin of evil in life -  the quality or malice that is the beginning of infidelity stems from the guilt of original sin." [reatus and culpa are not the same; reatus is more of a privation, but it is ordinarily translated as guilt]

Thanks for making his point for him.

Quote
Can you show me any Western Catholic Theologian, or even any Eastern Catholic Theologian, Father or Church Council for over the first 1000 years, who questioned Original Sin, or denied that Original Sin was remitted in Baptism, as the Council of Carthage said?

You are absolutely impossible, either an idiot or obtuse to the point of being a deceiver.
 

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5450
  • Thanked: 3740 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
I think even I underestimated just how much some of you haters of the Catholic Church fear the happy prospect of Catholic-Orthodox Re-Union. You not only hate the Catholic Church, you fear to the utmost that She may triumph over modern secularism and its related errors. The Re-Union of Christendom, as the CE stated, is feared only by the enemies of Christ; it is loved and desired by all who are His disciples, who love His Kingdom.

The original article was also from an Orthodox site. It's laughable how some are you filled with hate in response to it. The OP was in every way respectful of Patriarch Bartholomew. So why do you respond so viscerally and with such utter vitriol? Satan must be utterly terrifed, even more than I thought, at the glorious prospect of Orthodox Christians returning to the Catholic Church. You anti-Catholics can do as Satan wills; we Catholics will do as God Wills.

Quote
what the dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception

First, neither you nor TROL began with St. Ambrose, St. Augustine and St. John Damascene, cited earlier on. You're just scared and you're just running, that's so evident. St. Augustine explicitly taught Original Sin (St. Augustine was present at the Council of Carthage, which some of you theological heretics and historical ignoramuses still seem unaware of) and he explicitly excludes the Blessed Virgin Mother only, not even infants; clearly showing, that he who had so often emphasized that original sin was truly sin, also emphasized Mary Immaculate was without any sin at all. St. John Damascene also expressly places Her All-Holiness from the time of Her Conception, from St. Joachim her father and in her mother St. Anne's womb. Where is the honest reflection on and sincere consideration of these texts? You are spoonfed with the Truth, yet you are blinded to it. You oppose the Sacred Dogma to your own peril. St. Sophronius is also entirely clear - Mary Prokathartheisa is alone Pre-Purified in advance, alone and uniquely filled with Grace. St. Andrew of Crete plainly testifies that She is the New Eve and the Renewed Creation, the First Fruits of the Second Creation, in Whom human Nature is restored to its ancient privileges. You just ignore all this because of your spite for the Blessed Mother and the Church.

Quote
If he doesn't mention "Original Sin" then he can't have said Mary was exempt from it.

St. Fulgentius said Mary was exempt from the Original Sentence and restored to the Full Grace of Blessing. That statement itself proves the sentence passed on Eve also passes to all her other descendants; but Mary was exempted from that, and thus She is Full of Grace.

Quote
the Canons of the Council of Carthage do not teach the Augustinian doctrine

What manifest ignorance. St. Augustine was one of the Bishops of the Council of Carthage. It plainly teaches his doctrine, "whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema". St. Augustine did not teach "inherited guilt" in the sense of culpa; neither does the Catholic Church. He did teach, like St. Thomas, privation of original grace. That privation is what is remitted in Baptism, and was excluded in the Full of Grace. You are completely ignorant on this subject.

Original Sin means that all the descendants of Adam and Eve, except Jesus and Mary, are born deprived of original grace. They receive original grace in holy Baptism. Jesus and Mary were ever Full of Grace, as Luk 1:28 and Jn 1:14 plainly teach. Full of Grace, without sin.

You have nothing and you cite nothing, you just reject everything, all Scripture, Tradition, Councils, Fathers, Liturgies, everything.

Byzantine Liturgy: "The prelude of God's Grace falls today [on the day of the Theotokos' Conception by St. Anne] in the Conception of the All-Immaculate"

Major: God's Grace fell in the Conception of the All-Immaculate Mary.
Minor: But Original Sin is the Privation of God's Grace in our conception.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mary was exempt from Original Sin in Her Conception.

This is the Meaning of the Blessed Mother being Full of Grace. Original Sin, says St. Thomas, is the Privation of Original Grace. That privation was excluded in the Immaculate Mother. And therefore the Immaculate Virgin, as the Sacred Liturgy so clearly teaches, was Filled with Grace in Her Conception, being the Unique All-Immaculate Virgin Mother of God.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2020, 12:41:56 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/