Author Topic: Greg and Jayne  (Read 3550 times)

Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2019, 07:08:30 PM »
if the British and Germans could have a Christmas truce in 1914 during world war I perhaps greg and jayners could as well
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #46 on: December 24, 2019, 10:59:19 AM »
if the British and Germans could have a Christmas truce in 1914 during world war I perhaps greg and jayners could as well
Yes, but that wasn't as serious and bloody a conflict as this one.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2019, 01:09:01 PM »
if the British and Germans could have a Christmas truce in 1914 during world war I perhaps greg and jayners could as well
Yes, but that wasn't as serious and bloody a conflict as this one.

“If grandmother were alive, she never would have allowed it [the war]” - Kaiser Wilhelm
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2019, 03:47:36 PM »
if the British and Germans could have a Christmas truce in 1914 during world war I perhaps greg and jayners could as well
Yes, but that wasn't as serious and bloody a conflict as this one.

Weren't the soldiers from Scotland and Bavaria, respectively?
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Offline Ascanio1

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2020, 07:08:31 AM »
Lol, I wasn't banned from OC.net. I did get a warning, though. Anyway, I'm not worried about that; so be it. I'm more interested in the happy prospect of Christendom becoming strong and united once more, when Orthodox Christians happily return to the Catholic Church. I just saw some Orthodox there come closer to accepting Original Sin. When Sacred Scripture and Tradition are studied with devotion and reverence, Truth is clear.

Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware says Byzantine Mariological piety would most likely have led them to accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, as it was defined by the Catholic Church under Pope Bl. Pius IX, if only they had shared the doctrine of original sin. Well, original sin is in fact taught in ancient canons and even ecumenical councils, but this fact became obscured in the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the last century. A detailed study of the canonical Tradition will show it, and many Orthodox are increasingly realizing it. There was a Synod in Moscow that said Mary was conceived without original sin. They've just generally very much forgotten about it, after around 1895.

We see the Wisdom of God and Our Lady of Fatima in asking for reparation against offenses denying Her Immaculate Conception (number 1 of 5 offenses to make reparation for), and for the need for Russia to be consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. It seems to be the Will of God and the Plan of Heaven that when the Russian Orthodox Bishops and good Russian people accept, after prayer and study, the Immaculate Conception, above all, everything else that needs to be done for their re-union with the Church will be made easy.

Another extremely positive recent development, Patriarch Bartholomew, who once said he thought some Catholic doctrines were false, more recently said, he no longer considers that to be so. Bp. Kallistos Ware himself, on deeper study, increased reflection, and much prayer, after decades, qualified his position on Filioque, saying he no longer saw the Eastern and Western formulation (from the Father and the Son, and from the Father through the Son), to be totally different. They are a complementary way of professing the same Truth. The error of Photius was that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father alone, but not in any way through the Son, as that erring Patriarch says in his Mystagogy.

I am full of hope and confidence for the next decade, even despite many challenges that remain: I believe we will see God continue to do great things and show His Providence for the Church and for us all. Catholic Action for the Pope and Bishops to explicitly consecrate Russia must continue. It was a Russian Patriarch who was one of the first to support Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI, and praise the more widespread availability of the Traditional Latin Mass within the Latin Church that ensued. The day is coming when Russia will acknowledge the Catholic Faith and especially the Immaculate Conception and, now Catholic and Consecrated to the Immaculate Heart, contribute much to the re-evangelization of the world.
Thank you for this post. My wife is Orthodox and it helped me understand some important doctrinal differences of which I was not aware.
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Offline lauermar

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2020, 08:08:15 PM »
Both gone? Thank goodness for small miracles.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2020, 02:02:01 AM »
Hi Ascanio. God bless you and your dear wife. Most Orthodox Christians believe as they are taught by their Bishops and Priests. Once upon a time, Eastern Orthodox Bishops and Priests accepted and believed in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother. Sadly, more recently, they have fallen into some confusion regarding original sin, and therefore, lost belief in the Immaculate Conception as a result.

Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware says this: "In Orthodox services Mary is often mentioned, and on each occasion she is usually given her full title: ‘Our All-Holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorified Lady, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary.’ Here are included the three chief epithets applied to Our Lady by the Orthodox Church: Tkeotokos (Mother of God), Aeiparthenos (Ever-Virgin), and Panagia (All-Holy).

The first of these titles was assigned to her by the third Ecumenical Council (Ephesus, 431), the second by the fifth Ecumenical Council (Constantinople, 553) ... The title Panagia, although never a subject of dogmatic definition, is accepted and used by all Orthodox.

The Orthodox Church calls Mary ‘All-Holy;’ it calls her ‘immaculate’ or ‘spotless’ (in Greek, achrantos); and all Orthodox are agreed in believing that Our Lady was free from actual sin. But was she also free from original sin? In other words, does Orthodoxy agree with the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception ...

The Orthodox Church has never in fact made any formal and definitive pronouncement on the matter. In the past individual Orthodox have made statements which, if not definitely affirming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, at any rate approach close to it; but since 1854 the great majority of Orthodox have rejected the doctrine ... From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion;

Orthodox Prest Fr. John Meyendorf is another example: "Christ's humanity is a humanity without stain, and She who gave Him this humanity "resembled Him in all things," as Palamas says, that is to say She possesses by special grace original purity. It is indeed probable that Palamas' very striking piety with regard to the Virgin would have led him to accept that doctrine, if he had shared the Western conception of original sin."

According to Eastern Orthodox Priest and Theologian Fr. Lev Gillet, the Immaculate Conception was once taught in the Russian Orthodox Church, but this fact is not widely known, even to many Orthodox: "Every Russian theological student knows that St Dmitri, metropolitan of Rostov (17th century), supported the Latin “theory of the epiklesis” (10); but young Russians are inclined to consider the case of Dmitri as a regrettable exception, an anomoly. If they knew the history of Russian theology a little better they would know that from the middle ages to the seventeenth century the Russian Church has, as a whole, accepted belief in the Immaculate Conception (11).

The Academy of Kiev, with Peter Moghila, Stephen Gavorsky and many others, taught the Immaculate Conception in terms of Latin theology. A confraternity of the Immaculate Conception was established at Polotsk in 1651. The Orthodox members of the confraternity promised to honour the Immaculate Conception of Mary all the days of their life. The Council of Moscow of 1666 approved Simeon Polotsky’s book called The Rod of Direction, in which he said: “Mary was exempt from original sin from the moment of her conception”. (12)" https://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/the-immaculate-conception-and-the-orthodox-church-3/

Original Sin is also quite plainly taught in the 17th century Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem: "And, therefore, baptism is necessary even for infants, since they also are subject to original sin, and without Baptism are not able to obtain its remission." http://www.crivoice.org/creeddositheus.html It was also taught in ancient Councils like the Council of Carthage. It was 20th century revisionists among the Orthodox who first denied it in recent times. Sadly.

Anyway, if you wish to discuss that, there's a thread in the theology sub-section on the holy Church Fathers of East and West teaching the Immaculate Conception. God Bless.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 02:06:19 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline abc123

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2020, 07:06:26 AM »

Thank you for this post. My wife is Orthodox and it helped me understand some important doctrinal differences of which I was not aware.

Hello Ascaio-

I would strongly caution against looking to Xavier as a reliable source regarding Orthodox theology and history. He routinely misrepresents, knowingly I believe, any doctrine that is not post-Trent Roman Catholic. His many objections are constantly answered and ignored.

I would suggest speaking to an Orthodox priest if you want to receive an understanding of Orthodox theology.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2020, 07:34:15 AM »
Riiight. Those who don't want to accept Catholic Doctrine (like those who first defected from the Catholic Faith into the Orthodox Schism; and then into the Protestant Heresy) will of course have to come up with some excuse like that. But I was speaking as a Catholic to Catholics. I caution any Catholic from trying to learn about non-Catholic errors and heresies from non-Catholics. Go to unimpeachably Catholic sources to learn how to refute their errors, and how, with God's help, to draw the poor souls trapped in those grievous errors out of them; those knowingly separated from the Catholic Church cannot be saved. Therefore, it is urgent for Catholics to help non-Catholics see the Truth and be saved. Immaculate Conception is Dogma. Period.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 07:57:30 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
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Offline abc123

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2020, 10:23:32 AM »
Riiight. Those who don't want to accept Catholic Doctrine (like those who first defected from the Catholic Faith into the Orthodox Schism; and then into the Protestant Heresy) will of course have to come up with some excuse like that.

When one is faced with an impossible set of circumstances you can either deal with the facts and follow them where they lead, no matter how painful. Or one can deceive themselves and seek to deceive others. Whether right or wrong I followed where I believe they lead.

But I was speaking as a Catholic to Catholics.

You speak as one who has deluded himself into thinking he is some kind of authority on these matters.


I caution any Catholic from trying to learn about non-Catholic errors and heresies from non-Catholics.

Right. They should come to you instead.

Immaculate Conception is Dogma. Period.

Correct. Since 1854.

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2020, 09:35:20 PM »
Quote from: ABC123
Whether right or wrong ...

is exactly the issue. Because this is not a small matter, my friend. One's eternal salvation depends on it. God did not tell us Catholics, "if you decide it is best to leave the Church, then you had better do so; as quick as possible". God said simply, "You are Peter, and on this Rock, I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not conquer Her". It is like a Father setting his innocent children on a voyage, and telling them simply, as in one single and easy commandment to follow, "Whatever happens, do not leave the Ark. Hell will not conquer. I will give you victory over all the storms that buffet the Ark". We have God's Promise. He has kept it for 2000 years, and He can never fail to keep it. Faith assures us of it.

We who are born or baptized Catholics must die as good Catholics in order to be saved. There is no other way of salvation open to us.

Quote
You speak as one ...

Nope, not at all; I'm simply a student of these matters "sharing notes"; as one of my fellow students likes to say. But the ancient anti-Pelagian Council of Carthage under St. Augustine that defined original sin, the Eastern Orthodox Council of Jerusalem under Patriarch Dositheus, all of these are authorities. The persons cited by the Orthodox Bishops and Priests also are; it's very clear the Eastern Orthodox Churches once believed the Immaculate Conception. They fell into error on it after falling into error on original sin near the 20th century. Eastern Catholic Churches have not.

Quote
Since 1854.

Since always. The very Angelic Salutation testifies Mother Mary is Full of Grace and without any sin. Defined explicitly, by the Grace of God, on Dec. 8th, 1854 A.D. Just like the Holy Trinity was always dogma, but Christ being Consubstantial with the Father was defined explicitly in 325 A.D.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 09:58:21 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
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Offline Ascanio1

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Re: Greg and Jayne
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2020, 09:41:45 AM »
@ Xavier and @abc123

While I appreciate the fervour of the discussion, for my benefit, I realise that I, inadvertently, caused the thread to veer terribly OT.

The matter of Orthodox vs True Faith doctrine/dogma differences is of paramount importance to me, as my wife is on her path home to Catholicism from Orthodox so, perhaps, you may want to start a new thread and I will, very gladly join but I am new here and I do not want to be accused of hijacking this thread.
 :)

Happy new year.


« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 10:07:47 AM by ascaio1 »
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