Author Topic: Fr. Luke Rivington: The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, 1894 Book.  (Read 877 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: Fr. Luke Rivington: The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, 1894 Book.
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2020, 07:54:28 PM »

Since Vatican II is not ex cathedra, only a blind man would think it falls under Vatican I's definition of Papal Infallibility. Both Pope Paul VI and Pope Benedict XVI have said it does not - as if it needed to be said.



Amazing. Simply amazing.

God bless you, Kreuzritter. You have infinitely more patience than I do. Statements such as the above are why I gave up trying to answer Xavier long ago. I don't know if it is stupidity or plain bad faith and obstinacy. I should hope it is the former.

Its perfectly legitimate to state that Vatican 2 isnt dogmatic. If its that hard to accept the opinion of most people on this forum then you are free to go. And please take Kreuzritter with you, then both of you can thump your breasts and say ”Thank you God for not making us like those pitiful papists”

Yes, it's ridiculous. And these people don't care what Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, or Pope Benedict XVI had to say about it either; nor what Dietrich Von Hildebrand had to say about it, who was highly praised as a loyal Catholic thinker by Pope Pius XII, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Vatican II has nothing to do with a 1894 Book written to examine Sacred Scripture, Tradition and early Councils.

Quote from: Kreuzritter
In any case, it’s irrelevant to the point.

No, your "point" is irrelevant to the thread, first; and second, has already been addressed by numerous Papal Authorities you just ignored. Go start another thread on sede-vacantism or on Vatican II or whatever you want. This thread is to study what the early Church Fathers say about the authority of the Roman Church - with the first 500 years being in particular focus.

You also obviously didn't read the CE's clear explanation of Pope St. Clement's Epistle: "The first witness is St. Clement, a disciple of the Apostles, who, after Linus and Anacletus, succeeded St. Peter as the fourth in the list of popes....The tone of authority [in his Epistle to the Corinthians] which inspires the latter appears so clearly that [Protestant scholar J.B.] Lightfoot did not hesitate to speak of it as 'the first step towards papal domination' ...Thus, at the very commencement of church history, before the last survivor of the Apostles had passed away, we find a Bishop of Rome, himself a disciple of St. Peter, intervening in the affairs of another Church and claiming to settle the matter by a decision spoken under the influence of the Holy Spirit."

Read the whole epistle here, and you'll see what Pope St. Clement of Rome is talking about: "For, as God lives, and as the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost live — both the faith and hope of the elect, he who in lowliness of mind, with instant gentleness, and without repentance has observed the ordinances and appointments given by God— the same shall obtain a place and name in the number of those who are being saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is glory to Him for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 59. Warning Against Disobedience. Prayer.
If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger ..." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm It is obvious Him refers to God in this passage.

St. Irenaeus comments on the letter: "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Fr. Luke Rivington: The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, 1894 Book.
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2020, 05:30:47 AM »
Look how you were caught out in a bald-faced lie and ignore it!

Quote
You haven't in any way dealt with all the proofs Fr. Rivington cites from Pope St. Clement of Rome's Epistle to the Corinthians. Pope St. Clement of Rome affirms the Holy Ghost is speaking through him in his judgments on the situation afflicting the Church in Corinth.

This is a lie. It's a lie either if you are intellectually dishonest and do not check sources or because you deliberately quote statements you know are false and misleading.

Quote
Further on, in a passage only discovered of late, he claims their 'obedience unto the things written by us through the Holy Spirit' (sect 63), as he had said a little previously:

This is a lie. A flat-out lie. The text reads, according to NewAdvent

Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter.

Quote
'If any disobey the things spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and no small peril' (sect 59).

This is another lie, this time in misrepresenting context to make it appear as though Clement is saying the Holy Spirit is speaking through him. But the previous paragraph makes it clear that "Him" is referring to Jesus Christ.

... the same shall obtain a place and name in the number of those who are being saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is glory to Him for ever and ever. Amen. If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us ...


 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Fr. Luke Rivington: The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, 1894 Book.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2020, 05:44:51 AM »
No, your "point" is irrelevant to the thread, first; and second, has already been addressed by numerous Papal Authorities you just ignored. Go start another thread on sede-vacantism or on Vatican II or whatever you want. This thread is to study what the early Church Fathers say about the authority of the Roman Church - with the first 500 years being in particular focus.

Yes, the notion of authority you preach with your lips but deny in your actions.

Quote
You also obviously didn't read the CE's clear explanation of Pope St. Clement's Epistle: "The first witness is St. Clement, a disciple of the Apostles, who, after Linus and Anacletus, succeeded St. Peter as the fourth in the list of popes....The tone of authority [in his Epistle to the Corinthians] which inspires the latter appears so clearly that [Protestant scholar J.B.] Lightfoot did not hesitate to speak of it as 'the first step towards papal domination' ...Thus, at the very commencement of church history, before the last survivor of the Apostles had passed away, we find a Bishop of Rome, himself a disciple of St. Peter, intervening in the affairs of another Church and claiming to settle the matter by a decision spoken under the influence of the Holy Spirit."

I did read it. It's a mere assertion, and it's a patently tendentious and dishonest one. And Luke Rivington is false and a goddamned liar.

Quote
Chapter 59. Warning Against Disobedience. Prayer.
If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger ..." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm It is obvious Him refers to God in this passage.

Yes, through the teaching of God in the deposit of revelation that ended with John on Patmos, the Apostolic tradition which, in teaching, any bishop could lay claim to God speaking through him. If this were an inspired writing it would be holy writ, but then again, looking at how you treat the private revelations of every kook, quack and cretin, preaching the hysterical ramblings of prelest or outright frauds of attention-seeking hags  your oddball view doesn't come as a surprise. But no orthodox Catholic teaches your quackery that dogmatic definitions are "inspired" by the Holy Spirit; the theological formulation of infallibility is as a negative power, one that prevents error from being taught, not one that provides the teaching by inspiration.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 05:49:55 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Fr. Luke Rivington: The Primitive Church and the See of Peter, 1894 Book.
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2020, 07:47:06 AM »
Quote from: sect. 63
if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath

What research have you done on the Greek or Latin of this text? I'll admit, on re-reading it, that it can be taken in two ways. (1) be obedient to what is written by us through the Holy Spirit; this seems to be the plain sense, and is supported by the authority of Fr. Rivington and the CE authors, who would surely have reviewed the text before publication in Greek and Latin; or (2) it could mean what you claim "be obedient to us". Period. "Through the Holy Spirit root out jealousy". Possible. But less likely. But I'm suspending judgment till I see the original text.

Your ridiculous attacks on Fr. Rivington, without producing any linguistic proof, are absurd and unwarranted. In English it can be read both ways.

Quote from: sect 59
the previous paragraph makes it clear that "Him" is referring to Jesus Christ.

... the same shall obtain a place and name in the number of those who are being saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is glory to Him for ever and ever. Amen. If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us ...

This one is absurd. Since Him refers to God, it is obvious Pope St. Clement is saying God is speaking through Him in this decision. One could as well say Him refers to the Father, since it is said in the above, through Whom (Jesus) is Glory to Him (the Father) forever and ever. It's irrelevant because the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are all One Consubstantial Being, the Holy Trinity. Granted that Him refers to God, the point of Divine guidance stands.

Divine Guidance is implied in the very promise of the keys to bind and loose.

Divine Guidance is not the same as Divine Inspiration. You obviously have confused the two.

Vatican I: "For just as God wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth [5], just as Christ came to save what was lost [6] and to gather into one the children of God who were scattered abroad [7], so the Church, appointed by God to be mother and mistress of nations, recognizes her obligations to all and is always ready and anxious to raise the fallen, to steady those who stumble, to embrace those who return, and to strengthen the good and urge them on to what is better. Thus she can never cease from witnessing to the truth of God which heals all [8 ] and from declaring it, for she knows

that these words were directed to her: My spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth from this time forth and for evermore.[9] ...

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles ... Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals."

St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus also explain the Successor of St. Peter is divinely guided by the infallible influence of the Holy Ghost in a special way while making ex cathedra decisions.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 07:51:43 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/