Author Topic: Dogs Go To Heaven  (Read 1626 times)

Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2019, 11:00:48 PM »
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2019, 07:07:56 AM »
Puppers > unbaptized infants
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2019, 06:18:10 AM »
If we are saved, Scripture says God will grant all our desires.

God has the power to re-create your dead dog in heaven.

Therefore, if that’s your desire (why wouldn’t it be, it’s a natural desire), and you make it through the Pearly Gates, then your pet dog Fluffy will be there waiting wagging his tail.

Definitely a consolation to help motivate you to save your soul, especially when your dear dog dies (a horrible loss, like losing a child).

Sensible conclusion?  Heresy?  Foolish fantasy?  Your thoughts?   (btw a professor of Thomism thought my argument was very convincing  ;))

I hold this opinion as well.

The objection "you won't need dog when you've got God" doesn't hold, because God doesn't need us for His own happiness at all, yet He still creates us: for our own happiness and His greater glory. Therefore, we can desire the resurrection of animals, for their happiness and God's glory.

The objection "animal souls are not immortal so a resurrected one is only a clone" doesn't hold either. It proves too much. By this logic, your dog today is not the same dog as he was last week, because of accidental changes in his form. The truth is that God can recreate the exact essence of any animal or being that has ever existed, and He can even given the animal all its previous sense memories and conditioning if He wishes. Like all created things humans and animals both undergo change, and neither exactly identical one moment to the next; but their being or essence has a continuous existence. Human immortality means that our human essence will continue to exist for all eternity without interruption, but the fact an animal's will dissolve at death does not mean that it is a different essence once recreated/resurrected by God; it only means there's been a temporal interruption in its existence.
Dearly beloved, let us love one another: for charity is of God. And every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. (1 John 4:7)
 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2019, 06:24:18 AM »
Agreed, dogs don’t possess reason as we do, and by breeding human-like characteristics “into” them, we are as you said bringing out what was already there.  Except breeding a species over thousands of years to be an actual social companion to us, does more than that, it is rather artificially causing wild canines to micro-evolve into a sub-species now having characteristics more similar to humans than wild dogs. Except for dogs, I can’t think of any other animal domesticated and bred to be so capable of emotional intimacy and social connection with humans than dogs, except maybe for certain lower primates, in certain parts of the world.  Maybe. Chimps in the wild are already very vicious compared to say wolves.   Most don’t know that they commonly rape and kill their own for the sport of it (itself not unlike some humans).   A far cry (pun intended) from Lassie.

Why do you think dogs are domesticated wolves? Why not the other way round, wolves are dogs turned savage? God created all things good, so my intuition is that wolves are a decay from a more noble type, closer to the dog.
Dearly beloved, let us love one another: for charity is of God. And every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. (1 John 4:7)
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2019, 06:38:16 AM »
St Francis Paola


Francis had a favorite trout that he called ‘Antonella.’ One day one of the priests, who provided religious services, saw the trout swimming about in his pool. To him it was just a delicious dish, so he caught it and took it home, tossing it into the frying pan. Francis missed ‘Antonella’ and realized what had happened. He asked one of his followers to go to the priest to get it back. The priest, annoyed by this great concern for a mere fish, threw the cooked trout on the ground, shattering it into several pieces. The hermit sent by Francis gathered up the broken pieces in his hands and brought them back to Francis. Francis placed the pieces back in the pool and, looking up to Heaven, praying, said: ‘Antonella, in the name of Charity, return to life.’ The trout immediately became whole and swam joyously around his pool as if nothing had happened. The friars and the workers who witnessed this miracle were deeply impressed at the saint’s amazing powers.


Being in need of food, the workmen caught and slaughtered Francis’ pet lamb, Martinello, roasting it in their lime kiln. They were eating when the Saint approached them, looking for his lamb. They told him they had eaten it, having no other food. He asked what they had done with the fleece and the bones. They told him they had thrown them into the furnace. Francis walked over to the furnace, looked into the fire and called ‘Martinello, come out!’ The lamb jumped out, completely untouched, bleating happily on seeing his master.



St Martin de Porres

The procurator of the convent had a dog that served him faithfully for eighteen years. But now, as the animal was old and loathsome, he ordered him to be cast out. However, the faithful beast always came back, looking for his master. Then orders were given that the dog be taken off some distance and killed. This was done, and Blessed Martin on discovering such ingratitude, as it seemed in his eyes, was moved to compassion and asked that the dead dog be carried to his cell. He then sought out the procurator and said to him: ‘My Father, why did you order them to kill that animal? Is that the reward you give him after he has served you for so many years?’ Then shutting himself up in the cell where the dead animal had been placed, Martin knelt for some time in prayer, begging God to restore life to the unfortunate animal if He so willed, and God did not turn a deaf ear to this humble petition. On the following day Martin’s brethren saw him leave his cell, accompanied by the faithful dog, alive and perfectly well. While feeding him in the kitchen, Martin was heard to utter these words of sober advice to the dog: ‘Now, be sure not to return to your ungrateful master’s service, for you have experienced only too clearly how little your long years of faithful service have been appreciated.’ It is said that the dog survived for many years, but that he always followed Martin’s warning, fleeing from his old master whenever he saw him approach.


When Martin saw the little prisoner, his heart was touched and he would not permit its destruction. Instead, he gave him [the rat] his liberty, saying: ‘Go along, little brother, and tell your companions not to do any more harm. Tell your whole tribe to vacate this holy monastery and to go back into the garden, where I will bring you food each day.’ To the astonishment of all, the mice and rats came flocking out of the convent, finding a refuge in an old shed; and there Martin saw to it that they were provided with daily sustenance.



St Francis of Assisi

The wolf, seeing all this multitude, ran towards Saint Francis with his jaws wide open. As he approached, the saint, making the sign of the cross, cried out: “Come hither, brother wolf; I command thee, in the name of Christ, neither to harm me nor anybody else.” Marvelous to tell, no sooner had Saint Francis made the sign of the cross, than the terrible wolf, closing his jaws, stopped running, and coming up to Saint Francis, lay down at his feet as meekly as a lamb.

And the saint thus addressed him: “Brother wolf, thou hast done much evil in this land, destroying and killing the creatures of God without his permission; yea, not animals only hast thou destroyed, but thou hast even dared to devour men, made after the image of God; for which thing thou art worthy of being hanged like a robber and a murderer. All men cry out against thee, the dogs pursue thee, and all the inhabitants of this city are thy enemies; but I will make peace between them and thee, O brother wolf, if so be thou no more offend them, and they shall forgive thee all thy past offences, and neither men nor dogs shall pursue thee anymore.”

Having listened to these words, the wolf bowed his head, and, by the movements of his body, his tail, and his eyes, made signs that he agreed to what Saint Francis said.

On this Saint Francis added: “As thou art willing to make this peace, I promise thee that thou shalt be fed every day by the inhabitants of this land so long as thou shalt live among them; thou shalt no longer suffer hunger, as it is hunger which has made thee do so much evil; but if I obtain all this for thee, thou must promise, on thy side, never again to attack any animal or any human being; dost thou make this promise?” Then the wolf, bowing his head, made a sign that he consented.

Said Saint Francis again: “Brother wolf, wilt thou pledge thy faith that I may trust to this thy promise?” and putting out his hand he received the pledge of the wolf; for the latter lifted up his paw and placed it familiarly in the hand of Saint Francis, giving him thereby the only pledge which was in his power.

Then said Saint Francis, addressing him again: “Brother wolf, I command thee, in the name of Christ, to follow me immediately, without hesitation or doubting, that we may go together to ratify this peace which we have concluded in the name of God”; and the wolf, obeying him, walked by his side as meekly as a lamb, to the great astonishment of all the people.

Now, the news of this most wonderful miracle spreading quickly through the town, all the inhabitants, both men and women, small and great, young and old, flocked to the market-place to see Saint Francis and the wolf… Then all the people promised with one voice to feed the wolf to the end of his days… Then Saint Francis continued: “Brother wolf, as thou gavest me a pledge of this thy promise when we were outside the town, so now I will that thou renew it in the sight of all this people, and assure me that I have done well to promise in thy name”; and the wolf lifting up his paw placed it in the hand of Saint Francis.



St Anthony Padua

But they, not only consenting not to his holy words, but even, like hardened and obstinate sinners, refusing to hearken unto him, the Saint one day, by divine inspiration, went forth to the banks of the river close beside the sea; and, standing thus upon the shore betwixt sea and stream, he began to speak in the guise of a sermon in the name of God unto the fishes. ‘Hear the word of God, ye fishes of the sea and of the stream, since heretics and infidels are loathe to listen to it.’ And having uttered these words, suddenly there came toward him so great a multitude of fishes – great, small, and middle-sized – as had never been seen in that sea or in that stream… all turned their heads out of the water, and all turned attentively toward the face of Anthony.

Dearly beloved, let us love one another: for charity is of God. And every one that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. (1 John 4:7)
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2019, 08:38:00 PM »
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline gsas

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2020, 10:48:24 PM »
God takes His hierarchies seriously, and plants and animals and all other things are parts of that hierarchy, so they will all go to heaven.  In addition, there are texts talking about birds in heaven e.g. fouls to begin with.

But if we question the eternal nature of souls, why would a man's soul be eternal but others not?
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2020, 11:19:57 PM »
God takes His hierarchies seriously, and plants and animals and all other things are parts of that hierarchy, so they will all go to heaven.  In addition, there are texts talking about birds in heaven e.g. fouls to begin with.

But if we question the eternal nature of souls, why would a man's soul be eternal but others not?

To be honest, I don’t care if some weirdo’s favorite mold or fungus is in heaven. I hope that Pom de Replay makes it and has an infinitely huge mushroom garden.

But if one wishes to stick to “philosophy” being raised beyond the dung hill of human mind-shit that it is, then they need to deal with the assertion of a pagan regarding their materiality (Aristotle), and the approbation of a saint (Thomas Aquinas), that animals don’t go to heaven.

I’d hope that animals do.

But if one wishes to abide by the “need it to be happy” line (warning: emotional argumentation), then what about those who “need” their friends there? Their grandma and grandpa? Why not just admit consequent of universalism?

What about those who will be condemned? Shall their friends be there to make their condemnation sure?

Pay attention to the 2nd verse:




"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.

Woe is me, because I have held my peace. Isaiah 6
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 06:56:32 AM »
In addition, there are texts talking about birds in heaven e.g. fouls to begin with.

If you're referring to Genesis 1:26 etc., it's not talking about the same heaven. The word 'heaven' is used in several ways throughout Scripture, and in that particular verse it just means the sky.
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2020, 12:13:20 PM »
God takes His hierarchies seriously, and plants and animals and all other things are parts of that hierarchy, so they will all go to heaven.  In addition, there are texts talking about birds in heaven e.g. fouls to begin with.

But if we question the eternal nature of souls, why would a man's soul be eternal but others not?

The Church teaches only man has an immaterial soul that will in its very nature continue beyond death once separated by the body, but it is an open question among Catholic theologians and philosophers, traditionally, if heaven will include lower creatures.
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2020, 12:26:34 PM »
But if one wishes to stick to “philosophy” being raised beyond the dung hill of human mind-shit that it is

On the contrary,

Therefore, venerable brethren, as often as We contemplate the good, the force, and the singular advantages to be derived from his philosophic discipline which Our Fathers so dearly loved. We think it hazardous that its special honor should not always and everywhere remain, especially when it is established that daily experience, and the judgment of the greatest men, and, to crown all, the voice of the Church, have favored the Scholastic philosophy.   Pope Leo XIII

http://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_04081879_aeterni-patris.html
 
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