Author Topic: Dogs Go To Heaven  (Read 1049 times)

Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2019, 03:43:17 PM »
Your fidoelity to Logic is asthounding,  G.

Okay, which part of my argument is not logical?

These are puns, Putz.

Obviously, wiener-schnitzel.

So how is the argument not logical?
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2019, 03:43:45 PM »
If it makes one feel better, I suppose they could believe God could, and therefore, since it conforms with their desires, He would, do that which He hasn't, but the thinker considers good.

Will Rogers once said, “If there are no dogs in heaven, I want to go where they went.”

Claremore it is, then, I suppose.

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Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.

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Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2019, 04:08:06 PM »
"Hasn't" goes too far.

"Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for those who love him."  St Paul
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 04:24:18 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2019, 04:24:33 PM »
"Eye hath not seen, nor ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for those who love him."  St Paul


Exactly.  Here on Earth, we can't even fathom the goodness that is life in Heaven.  It may or may not be what we would choose it to be, but one thing is for sure, it will be incredible.

But, I don't see how each person will even be able to have all their desires in Heaven.  It does not account for different desires that completely oppose one another.  It would force God to choose between one person's desire and another's.  There are far too many varying desires for God to cater to. 

As a parent, even if I wanted to give each of my children everyone of their desires, I couldn't, because in granting one child's desire, I would be violating another's.  How would this work in Heaven, unless we all just lived in our own selfish worlds, without interacting with anyone else unless we chose to (which might actually be some people's perfect Heaven... introverts unite; separately; in their own homes :cheeseheadbeer:)

The best thing is to simply not worry about getting our own desires in Heaven, and just trust that whatever God deems to give is in Heaven will far surpass anything we could possibly wish for ourselves.  To me, that is really what detachment is about; not so much that material/created things are evil and not to be desired or enjoyed.
 
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Offline Graham

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2019, 05:28:25 PM »
"Hasn't" goes too far.

"Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for those who love him."  St Paul

eyes have seen dogs though
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2019, 05:34:48 PM »
Yes, it is a great mystery, but "theology" after all explores that mystery.

This kind of question is just good food for thought.  Think about it.  How close are dogs (the domesticated variety) in their natures to that of man?  Why have they formed such a close bond to us?  Why have dogs died to protect their owners, or children, in heroic acts that you'll rarely see from humans?   The answer is there is something very unique about a dog that you just don't experience among any other animal (including most cats), especially when said dog is your "man's best friend."  Take my dog for example, more loyal and compassionate than most humans I encounter in the every day world.  If you've ever had a good dog for a pet, you know what I mean.  There is something in them that goes beyond their physical needs for food and survival, like you see in the wild.  I'm not sure what that is, but I suspect we have literally bred aspects of humanity into them unlike any other animal we have kept in captivity.  Which is why so many dog owners have always had the natural desire to see their canine friend with them on the other side.  This goes back to ancient times, even pre-historic.   So no, not foolish worldly thinking or worse heresy.  Take a sip and think about it. 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 05:38:24 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2019, 06:21:47 PM »
Your fidoelity to Logic is asthounding,  G.

Okay, which part of my argument is not logical?

These are puns, Putz.

Obviously, wiener-schnitzel.

So how is the argument not logical?

It was a spamiel post. Nothing to retriever from it.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2019, 06:25:33 PM »
Take my dog for example, more loyal and compassionate than most humans I encounter in the every day world.

That is the result of our own anthropomorphic projections into the behavior of dogs. We do that with all animals. We categorize their behavior in human terms, ascribing to them moral qualities and defects. The extent to which the animal itself is a moral agent is debatable, although I'm open to the idea.

Quote
I'm not sure what that is, but I suspect we have literally bred aspects of humanity into them unlike any other animal we have kept in captivity.

Since their physical and social evolution has been shaped by direct contact with humans, dogs have acquired the ability to understand and communicate with us better than other species. I wouldn't say that we have bred aspects of humanity into them. That's a stretch. Their communication skills and behavioral adaptability towards humans is the result of gene selection through breeding and domestication.
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2019, 06:42:59 PM »
Quote
.How close are dogs (the domesticated variety) in their natures to that of man? ...There is something in them that goes beyond their physical needs for food and survival, like you see in the wild.  I'm not sure what that is, but I suspect we have literally bred aspects of humanity into them   

Man is created in the image and likeness of God Almighty Himself; not dogs.  To elevate them to the level of humanity or personhood goes against Truth, and seems to me a heretical line of thinking (I'm not a theologian, so I can't quote Aquinas or Thomas to back me up, but something about that idea goes against my sensus catholicus). 

I see no problems with enjoying the company of dogs or pets, in general.  Nor do I think it is wrong or sinful to hope or want animals to be part of Heaven.  But, at the same time, there is a hierarchy to God's creation that must be respected and not violated.  Dogs can't love the way God and man can.  They are instinctual. 
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2019, 07:01:25 PM »
Take my dog for example, more loyal and compassionate than most humans I encounter in the every day world.

That is the result of our own anthropomorphic projections into the behavior of dogs. We do that with all animals. We categorize their behavior in human terms, ascribing to them moral qualities and defects. The extent to which the animal itself is a moral agent is debatable, although I'm open to the idea.

Quote
I'm not sure what that is, but I suspect we have literally bred aspects of humanity into them unlike any other animal we have kept in captivity.

Since their physical and social evolution has been shaped by direct contact with humans, dogs have acquired the ability to understand and communicate with us better than other species. I wouldn't say that we have bred aspects of humanity into them. That's a stretch. Their communication skills and behavioral adaptability towards humans is the result of gene selection through breeding and domestication.

The argument is dogs are so similar to humans to warrant wanting them to be in heaven. That’s it.   They are not human.  But we have bred certain human-like characteristics into dogs unseen in the wild.  No wild animal would lay down their life for a human, or risk doing so, like some domesticated dogs have been known to do.  Let alone provide intimate comfort to the sick and dying, when bred and trained to do so by us.  So those characteristics aren’t mere anthropomorphic mental projections onto them.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 07:04:59 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2019, 07:20:16 PM »
The argument is dogs are so similar to humans to warrant wanting them to be in heaven. That’s it.

I suppose dogs, and other animals, can be part of the new heavens and the new earth after the Parousia and the Day of Judgment. I don't see why not.

Nevertheless, the animals that are most similar to humans are chimpanzees and other primates, not dogs.

Quote
But we have bred certain human-like characteristics into dogs unseen in the wild.  No wild animal would lay down their life for a human, or risk doing so, like some domesticated dogs have been known to do. Let alone provide intimate comfort to the sick and dying, when bred and trained to do so by us. So those characteristics aren’t mere anthropomorphic mental projections onto them.

Dogs, as well as wolves, already had the necessary traits that facilitated their domestication by humans. We haven't bred human-like characteristics into them, we have selectively bred what was already there. These traits became enhanced over thousands of years of shared interaction. Anthropomorphism kicks in when you ascribe moral agency to what is behavioral instinct. There's no right and wrong in the actions of dogs. While I'm open to entertaining the idea of some limited aspect of moral agency for the more evolved species in the planet, I still go back to the fundamental idea that man alone possesses the godlike natura rationalis.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 07:25:51 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline christulsa

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2019, 08:56:49 PM »
Agreed, dogs don’t possess reason as we do, and by breeding human-like characteristics “into” them, we are as you said bringing out what was already there.  Except breeding a species over thousands of years to be an actual social companion to us, does more than that, it is rather artificially causing wild canines to micro-evolve into a sub-species now having characteristics more similar to humans than wild dogs. Except for dogs, I can’t think of any other animal domesticated and bred to be so capable of emotional intimacy and social connection with humans than dogs, except maybe for certain lower primates, in certain parts of the world.  Maybe. Chimps in the wild are already very vicious compared to say wolves.   Most don’t know that they commonly rape and kill their own for the sport of it (itself not unlike some humans).   A far cry (pun intended) from Lassie.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:32:08 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline abc123

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 05:11:19 AM »
Having had to endure countless rude dog owners over the years who let their "fur baby" bark ceaselessly as well as being attacked by my neighbors German Shepherd as a child; I was hoping to avoid having to deal with mutts in the hereafter.

And this modern mental sickness of elevating slobbering, loud, ugly mutts to child status is one of the few things that really gets under my skin.
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2019, 05:40:13 AM »
Having had to endure countless rude dog owners over the years who let their "fur baby" bark ceaselessly as well as being attacked by my neighbors German Shepherd as a child; I was hoping to avoid having to deal with mutts in the hereafter.

And this modern mental sickness of elevating slobbering, loud, ugly mutts to child status is one of the few things that really gets under my skin.

But dogs in heaven will be perfect in their glorious bodies. So up there they will get you your beer and everything else you want, no barking and humping the pillow.
 

Offline red solo cup

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Re: Dogs Go To Heaven
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2019, 06:20:47 AM »
When I was in RCIA a woman asked the instructor if her dogs would be in heaven with her. His answer was that heaven has everything we need to make us happy.
"It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry"