Author Topic: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic  (Read 947 times)

Offline Padraig

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St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« on: December 13, 2019, 02:28:07 PM »
There was a write up on St. Mary's in The Atlantic. I actually thought it was quite fair, and the pictures were beautiful.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/retreat-christian-soldiers/603043/

Offline Maximilian

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2019, 12:22:44 AM »
Excellent article. Probably the best one could hope for.

Sometimes when our efforts appear futile, it is nice to know that we are actually having enough impact to be noticed by The Atlantic.
 

Offline Lynne

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2019, 06:35:55 AM »
Yes, overall it was a good article. It's a shame no one ever explained to Tiffany, though, the reason why birth control is bad. Or maybe they did and she chose not to understand.

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Tiffany Joy-Egly moved from Tulsa to St. Marys with her parents and two sisters in 1979, when she was 6 years old. Tiffany grew up immersed in the SSPX world: learning about the dangers of rock music, skipping adolescent experiments with makeup, avoiding any behavior that might tempt men into sin. But Tiffany was possessed of a skeptical mind. “I would question in religion class,” she told me at a Starbucks in Topeka, where she works as an emergency-room nurse and lives with her husband and two daughters. “If God gave us a brain, how come we can’t use birth control? Because that makes more sense than having 12 kids that you can’t afford to feed.” This attitude was not welcome at the academy. “I was in detention a lot,” she said.


In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2019, 08:49:38 AM »
Yes, overall it was a good article. It's a shame no one ever explained to Tiffany, though, the reason why birth control is bad. Or maybe they did and she chose not to understand.

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Tiffany Joy-Egly moved from Tulsa to St. Marys with her parents and two sisters in 1979, when she was 6 years old. Tiffany grew up immersed in the SSPX world: learning about the dangers of rock music, skipping adolescent experiments with makeup, avoiding any behavior that might tempt men into sin. But Tiffany was possessed of a skeptical mind. “I would question in religion class,” she told me at a Starbucks in Topeka, where she works as an emergency-room nurse and lives with her husband and two daughters. “If God gave us a brain, how come we can’t use birth control? Because that makes more sense than having 12 kids that you can’t afford to feed.” This attitude was not welcome at the academy. “I was in detention a lot,” she said.

 It has become infectious, these material, moral, i.e. fallacious arguments against "And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth." Genesis 1:28

Greg's dad has 54 grandchildren. 54! What a legacy. We all have friends with 5+ and 10+ children. They ain't starving. Poor, in cases. But starving and unclothed?  People are murdering their joy for a 600 a month car payment.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2019, 11:31:08 AM »
This is where I don't know what to believe. 

First, I could fully believe the author of the article is lying or simply moronically getting things wrong.   

I could also fully believe that Tiffany here is exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion because she has bought into liberal lies. 

I could also fully believe due to simply subpar education that some teachers and clergy and parents are simply idiots who can't explain a thing.  They simply regurgitate rules and haven't even absorbed the rules themselves. 

There are trads clergy and faithful that are simply trying to carbon copy the mechanical Catholicism that ended in bringing us Vatican II or trads that actually have the vitality and spirit of tradition giving spark to their faith.  They absorb what has been handed down what was good and is useful and are able to discard or avoid distortions that have crept in over the centuries in various pockets of Catholicism. 



 
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Offline Gerard

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2019, 11:32:25 AM »
Follow up post: 

If what "Tiffany" is stating is true, she's not even getting "true SSPX" positions. 

A priest saying that attendance at the local parish for a wedding "is a sin" is not in line with Catholicism or any SSPX rule.

And this part is absolutely ridiculous, it doesn't even make sense and is potentially dangerous : 

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Tiffany herself started using drugs and alcohol, but later resolved to return to the SSPX fold. She went to confession and delivered a litany of her sins, but the priest stopped her when she shared that a friend had recently had an abortion. This, the priest said, was unforgivable. While Tiffany herself had not terminated a pregnancy, she had failed to stop another woman from doing so. The priest declared that she would be excommunicated. (With proper penance, SSPX officials said, she could be reconciled with the Church.)

Abortion isn't "unforgiveable",   "failing to stop someone…" does not make someone automatically an accessory to a sin and certainly doesn't qualify as helping to procure an abortion, and any excommunication would already have occurred for a sin like procuring an abortion.  Why would the priest talk of a future excommunication?  And what is "proper penance"?  The penance itself doesn't reconcile one to the Church, the absolution does. 

Either the author is way off… Tiffany is lying or there is a totally manipulative and dangerous priest that she was confessing too.  Somebody in the St. Mary's community should be looking into this to get to the bottom of it.  If what she says is true, that sounds like a priest grooming a victim for sexual abuse. 
 

Offline Therese

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 12:33:11 PM »
Either the author is way off… Tiffany is lying or there is a totally manipulative and dangerous priest that she was confessing too.  Somebody in the St. Mary's community should be looking into this to get to the bottom of it.  If what she says is true, that sounds like a priest grooming a victim for sexual abuse.

Goodness gracious, aren't you taking it a bit to far? Whoever the priest was, he can't defend himself as he is bound by the seal of the confessional - to suggest that he was "grooming" someone, is much to much.

The logical conclusion was there was more to the story than what was in the article, or Tiffany wasn't quite being forthright to the author in how exactly she was involved in the situation. It seems as those she doesn't understand some Catholic teachings, or chooses to ignore/rebel against them anyway, so that would be a much more reasonable explanation to the situation then jumping on the priest and accusing him of horrible things.
 
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Offline christulsa

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2019, 01:49:51 PM »
We were actually in St. Mary's twice this Fall, for the Shakespearean festival in September, and Christ the King Festival in October.  My experiences there have been overall positive, but there's definitely the irregular behavior here and there.   I can sympathize with "Tiffany's" story, but not the part about what she was told in confession.  What was told her was private, not something for a public article.  I would give the priest the benefit of the doubt that he was simply saying that she could bare some responsibility for not doing anything to dissuade her friend from having an abortion.   Supporting abortion in that case can cause excommunication, if so there is a penance typically attached with the absolution.  And I am sure the SSPX religion classes covered why the Church condemns artificial birth control.  It's a mixed bag iwe're all living in, whether Trad or NO.  St. Mary's has its merits, but is no exception to scandal.  Nonetheless, good article.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 01:53:56 PM by christulsa »
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2019, 02:37:35 PM »
Either the author is way off… Tiffany is lying or there is a totally manipulative and dangerous priest that she was confessing too.  Somebody in the St. Mary's community should be looking into this to get to the bottom of it.  If what she says is true, that sounds like a priest grooming a victim for sexual abuse.

Goodness gracious, aren't you taking it a bit to far? Whoever the priest was, he can't defend himself as he is bound by the seal of the confessional - to suggest that he was "grooming" someone, is much to much.

Assuming the author is accurate. The priest wasn't named, so he doesn't need to defend himself.  We've only got one side of the conversation to deal with so, Tiffany has to be asked about the confession and corrected on what she was told.  If she is insistent on what was told to her, she or her father needs to bring it up to the priest's superior.  She also needs to be taught to look for the signs of "Solicitation." And taught that "Solicitation" invalidates a confession until the solicited person reports the crime to the Superior. 

http://catholicencyclopedia.newadvent.com/cathen/14134b.htm
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The logical conclusion was there was more to the story than what was in the article, or Tiffany wasn't quite being forthright to the author in how exactly she was involved in the situation. It seems as those she doesn't understand some Catholic teachings, or chooses to ignore/rebel against them anyway, so that would be a much more reasonable explanation to the situation then jumping on the priest and accusing him of horrible things.

A corrupted priest grooming a troubled youth for abuse is completely logical.  I've been absolved by at least one priest that turned out to be a predator.  I've been flirted with by priests in the confessional when I was in my 30s and 40s.  "Oh! You have such a beautiful and soothing voice.  I wish you had more sins to confess so I could just lay back and listen to your voice. …just kidding." ….Yeesh!  It's every bit as logical as the other two possibilities I pointed out.  Tiffany may not be telling the truth, or the author may be in error or flat out lying. 

But, if the author wrote what was told him and Tiffany accurately relayed what was told to her, then the problem is with the confessor.  And that is as serious as anything.  Who knows if he is even giving the proper absolution formula? 


Finally, the author of the article has to be informed about what is correct doctrine regarding confession, excommunication and abortion and be implored to amend the article. 

 

Offline Therese

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2019, 05:52:52 PM »
Good grief. No, that isn't logical at all. You are jumping to extreme conclusions.

So let's insinuate something about all the priests who may have been their, at whatever date that was, since we don't have any idea who it was or when. Let's throw mud and suspicion at all of them.... This is why you are not supposed to talk about a confession, even as the penitent. The priest has no recourse and things can easily get twisted.

Abortion was a reserved sin to the Holy See up to a few years ago, until Pope Francis gave faculties to all priests to absolve it and lift the penalties. So if she was involved in some way with the abortion, she could not receive absolution immediately. 

And it doesn't sound like she was probably a kid at that point. It definitely sounds like it was when she an adult. She is 46 now.
 
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Offline Jacob

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2019, 06:23:09 PM »
Just to note, the author is a woman if I remember right.
“Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be—or to be indistinguishable from—self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time.”
--Neal Stephenson
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2019, 08:50:26 PM »
Good grief. No, that isn't logical at all. You are jumping to extreme conclusions.

I'm not making any conclusions.  I'm positing both actual and  potential issues of concern based on the doctrinal errors in the text of the article. 

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So let's insinuate something about all the priests who may have been their, at whatever date that was, since we don't have any idea who it was or when.

I didn't insinuate anything about all the priests there.  That's ridiculous.  If that were what I was doing, why would I say to investigate and if it turns out to be a problem notify the superior? 

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Let's throw mud and suspicion at all of them....

If it's hyperbole you want, you'd rather have kids get raped than look into suspicious activity? 

Talk about turning a blind eye to grievous errors being reported about a Holy Sacrament in a place that is supposed to be a sanctuary of traditional and correct Catholic teaching.

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This is why you are not supposed to talk about a confession, even as the penitent.

There is nothing binding a penitent from talking about confession.  How do you think good confessors get good reputations as good confessors? 

A priest told me it's an act of charity to warn people about bad priests and bad confessors.  And, as I pointed out Solicitation requires the penitent to turn in the confessor for any absolution to be given validity.

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The priest has no recourse and things can easily get twisted.

There's always the crimes of both false accusations by penitents and real abuses by confessors. 

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Abortion was a reserved sin to the Holy See up to a few years ago, until Pope Francis gave faculties to all priests to absolve it and lift the penalties. So if she was involved in some way with the abortion, she could not receive absolution immediately. 

In the U.S. priests have had the faculties to absolve for abortion for decades. 

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And it doesn't sound like she was probably a kid at that point. It definitely sounds like it was when she an adult. She is 46 now.

If she's 46 and has been living in St. Mary's for the vast majority of her formative years and life and she's describing confessions like that, there are big problems going on and biggers ones if no one is seeing a big red flag waving. 

Having been in the confessional with many SSPX priests who were some of the best confessors I've ever been to as well as some of the looniest nut jobs  I've ever encountered, the safest course of action would be for the people in St. Mary's to investigate the UN-Catholic spiritual counsel this girl/woman claims to have received.  If she is accurately portraying what the text of the article says, there is a lot of damage done by this priest or priests who share these heterodox ideas.  Fr. Wegner should send a letter addressing the article and make the various corrections needed known far and wide in SSPX mass centers and communities. 

 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2019, 09:00:01 PM »
I thought that the article was fair, except for having the "Holocaust denier" reference thrown in; must be "de-rigueur".  I didn't like most of the pictures; practically nobody was smiling; the one with the three priest, looked really weird; and the angle of the one with Fr. Frank at the Piano, also was really weird, really distorted Fr.'s face.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 06:12:21 AM »
I think most Americans who read it will be repelled by the imagery.  I suspect the Nazi reference is the core point of the article.  If some Nazi or "antisemitic" tie-in could not be found it wouldn't have been written.

The lasting impression for most readers will be "Traditional Catholics are Nazis."
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: St. Mary's as seen by The Atlantic
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2019, 12:58:33 PM »
Wow, one guy says a balanced article from a Mammon publication, with elegant pictures to accent, while a few others find the whole thing a crypto hit piece.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.