Author Topic: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.  (Read 307 times)

Offline Kreuzritter

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Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« on: December 04, 2019, 06:54:46 PM »
Our prophets did know of greater things than any in the Scriptures, which they did not
commit to writing. Ezekiel, for example, received a roll written within and without...
but at the command of the Logos he swallowed the book in order that its contents
might not be written and so made known to unworthy persons. John also is recorded to
have seen and done a similar thing (Rev. 10.9). Nay Paul even heard 'unspeakable
words which it is not lawful for a man to utter'. And it is related of Jesus who was
greater than all these, that he conversed with his disciples in private, and especially in
their secret retreats, concerning the gospel of God; but the words which he uttered have
not been preserved because it appeared to the evangelists that they could not be
adequately conveyed to the multitude in writing or speech.
(Celsus 6.6)


 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 08:13:48 PM »
Uncontroversial point, I'm afraid.

Protestants recognize that not everything Christ did or taught during His ministry was preserved in the Scriptures. The Scriptures themselves testify to it. Rather, their point of contention is that what was eventually preserved therein is sufficient unto salvation: Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name (John 10:30-31).

As Irenaeus states in "Adversus Haereses", we have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. The position that all doctrine must conform and ultimately be extracted, directly or indirectly, from the Scriptures is a sound position within Catholicism. Gregory of Nyssa, in his letter to Eustathius, makes exactly the same point against the tradition of the Arians: What then is our reply? We do not think that it is right to make their prevailing custom the law and rule of sound doctrine. For if custom is to avail for proof of soundness, we too, surely, may advance our prevailing custom; and if they reject this, we are surely not bound to follow theirs. Let the inspired Scripture, then, be our umpire, and the vote of truth will surely be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words. Hippolytus uses the same method: There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things then the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach these let us learn. Cyril of Jerusalem defends the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, taking the Scriptures as the ultimate authority: We ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the Holy Scriptures: nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the Holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures. The main weakness of the Protestant position, especially amidst the non-magisterial churches, is to divorce scriptural exegesis and doctrinal praxis from the larger historical tradition of the Church.

Furthermore, you might be falling into the trap of overstating the case for oral tradition. Could you please indicate any words, miracles or teachings of Christ that the Church knows of and that have not been preserved in the Scriptures? Of course not.
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Offline abc123

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 08:35:08 PM »
As Vetus clearly pointed out, the OP does not in anyway address the Reformational teaching of Sola Scriptura.

I used to hold the same mistaken idea until I decided to actually read what the Reformers meant by this concept. Simply stated: all that's necessary for salvation is contained in the Scripture and Scripture is to be the highest authority for the Christian in matters pertaining to the same.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 08:39:26 PM by abc123 »
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 09:44:23 PM »
Which part of Scripture is superfluous?

Can any part of Scripture be sufficient?

If not, how would it be handled prior to the codification of Scripture?

When was that done?

Which body did it?

How does one know if they are reading Scripture correctly in order to arrive at Salvific conclusions and understanding?

How does one know if a book with the title “Bible” is in fact free from doctrinal, dogmatic, and well, Scriptural error? Hint: shall I commit murder or shall I not?

Why do ministers have bible commentaries?

Why do they learn Greek and exegetical practices?

How does one know what books the Bible contains, since Scripture doesn’t self-contain a canon?

How does one know if they have extra books or are missing them?:


Which part of Scripture is superfluous?

Can any part of Scripture be sufficient?

If not, how would it be handled prior to the codification of Scripture?

When was that done?

Which body did it?
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2019, 06:20:46 AM »
Uncontroversial point, I'm afraid.

Oh, but if you actually read it, it is.

Quote
Protestants recognize that not everything Christ did or taught during His ministry was preserved in the Scriptures. The Scriptures themselves testify to it.

That's a half truth. Protestants also deny the truth of everything they cannot find in their scriptures. In this they are like the disingenuous atheists who claim mer "non-belief" in God but in reality deny his existence.

Quote
Rather, their point of contention is that what was eventually preserved therein is sufficient unto salvation:

What is "sufficient unto salvation" could be written in a paragraph. In the case of Protestants, in a single sentence. What is their nominal contention and their real intention revealed by praxis are two different things.

Quote
Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name (John 10:30-31).

That would make the Gospel of John sufficient unto salvation.

Quote
As Irenaeus states in "Adversus Haereses"

Ironic then that when one reads his Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching, one finds so much stated dogmatically that cannot be found directly in scripture.

Wherefore also the Spirit of God is manifold in (His) indwelling,89 and in seven forms of service90 is He reckoned by the prophet Isaiah, as resting on the Son of God, that is the Word, in His coming as man. The Spirit of God, he says, shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, (the Spirit of knowledge) 91 and of godliness; the Spirit of the fear of God shall fill him. Now the heaven which is first from above,92 and encompasses the rest, is (that 79 of) wisdom; and the second from it, of understanding; and the third, of counsel; and the fourth, reckoned from above, (is that) of might; and the fifth, of knowledge; and the sixth, of godliness; and the seventh, this firmament of ours, is full of the fear of that Spirit which gives light to the heavens. For, as the pattern (of this), Moses received the seven-branched candlestick,93 that shined continually in the holy place; for as a pattern of the heavens he received this service, according to that which the Word spake unto him: Thou shalt make (it) according to all the pattern of the things which thou hast seen in the mount.
94
10. Now this God is glorified by His Word95 who is His Son continually,96 and by the Holy Spirit who is the Wisdom of the Father of all: and the power(s) of these, (namely) of the Word and 80 Wisdom, which are called Cherubim and Seraphim,97 with unceasing voices glorify God; and every created thing that is in the heavens offers glory to God the Father of all. He by His Word has created the whole world, and in the world are the angels; and to all the world He has given laws wherein each several thing should abide, and according to that which is determined by God should not pass their bounds, each fulfilling his appointed task.

The first paragraph even contains a train of thought almost indistinguishable from the Kabbah  that supposedly emerged 1,000 years later.

The Jews used to tell of many things in accordance with secret traditions reserved to a few, for they had other knowledge than that which was common and made public. - Origen

This is the kind o f divine enlightenment into which we have been initiated by the hidden tradition of our inspired teachers, a tradition at one with Scripture. We now grasp these things in the best way We can, and as they come to us, wrapped in the sacred veils of that love toward humanity with which Scripture and hierarchical traditions cover the truths of the mind with things derived from the realm of the senses.
- Dionysius

But see to it that you do not betray the Holy of Holies. Let your respect for the things of the hidden God be shown in knowledge that comes from the intellect and is unseen. Keep these things of God unshared and undefiled by the uninitiated. - Dionysius

If then we assert that Christ himself is Wisdom, and that it was His working that showed itself in the prophets, by which the Gnostic tradition may be learned, as heHimself taught the apostles during his presence; then it follows that the gnosis which is the knowledge and apprehension of things present, future and past which is sure and reliable, as being imparted and revealed by the Son of God, is Wisdom. - Clement of Alexandria

Those, then, that adhere to impious words, and dictate them to others, inasmuch as they do not make a right but a perverse use of the divine words, neither themselves enter into the kingdom of heaven, nor permit those whom they have deluded to attain the truth. But not having the key of entrance, but a false, and as the common phrase expresses it, a counterfeit key, by which they do not enter in as we enter in, through the tradition of the Lord, by drawing aside the curtain; but bursting through the side-door, and digging clandestinely through the wall of the Church, and stepping over the truth, they constitute themselves the Mystagogues of the soul of the impious. - Clement of Alexandria

And if, too, the end of the wise man is contemplation, that of those who are still philosophers aims at it, but never attains it, unless by the process of learning it receives the prophetic utterance which has been made known, by which it grasps both the present, the future and the past, .. . how they are, were, and shall be. And the gnosis itself is that which has descended by transmission to a few, having been imparted unwritten by the apostles. Hence, then, knowledge or wisdom ought to be exercised up to the eternal and unchangeable habit of contemplation. - Clement of Alexandria

Gnosis leads us to the endless and perfect end, teaching us beforehand the future life that w e shall lead, according to God and with gods .. . Then, having become pure in heart and near to the LORD, there awaits them restoration to everlasting contemplation; and they are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on other thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Saviour. - Clement of Alexandria

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Furthermore, you might be falling into the trap of overstating the case for oral tradition. Could you please indicate any words, miracles or teachings of Christ that the Church knows of and that have not been preserved in the Scriptures?

Yes, cosmography, the orders of the angels, the fall of Lucifer and identity of Satan, the nature and identification of the sacraments,etc. I won't say anything more that is certain to ruffle the feathers of the exotericists.

Whether or not you, as a Calvinist, accept these is not my business.

Quote
Of course not.

Presumptuous.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 06:24:08 AM »
As Vetus clearly pointed out, the OP does not in anyway address the Reformational teaching of Sola Scriptura.

I used to hold the same mistaken idea until I decided to actually read what the Reformers meant by this concept. Simply stated: all that's necessary for salvation is contained in the Scripture and Scripture is to be the highest authority for the Christian in matters pertaining to the same.

Oh, so you believe the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ and that Baptism is the being born again that brings justification and is necessary for salvation? Good to know.
 
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 07:05:06 AM »
Quote
Could you please indicate any words, miracles or teachings of Christ that the Church knows of and that have not been preserved in the Scriptures? Of course not.

The Assumption of Mary (she didn't pull herself into there nor is this explicitly stated in Scripture).

Quote
I used to hold the same mistaken idea until I decided to actually read what the Reformers meant by this concept. Simply stated: all that's necessary for salvation is contained in the Scripture and Scripture is to be the highest authority for the Christian in matters pertaining to the same.

Gardener, as has every Catholic apologist since the Revolt, utterly destroyed the case for Sola Scriptura.  The simple canon argument alone defeats it.

I also am not sure how you were not properly aware of what Sola Scriptura meant.  When I was returning to Christianity that was pretty much the first thing that needed to be examined.  Shrug.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 08:50:21 AM »
Let's admit it, to be deep in the Fathers is to cease to be a Protestant. Patristic Teaching could not conceivably be more different from Protestant thought, especially on Sola Scriptura. On the other hand, it perfectly aligns with what the Magisterium of the Church still teaches on the right relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. "The Word of the Lord through the Nicene Council" said St. Athanasius nobly, "endures forever" applying a Scriptural Text to Church Tradition.

From http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3203.htm De Spiritu Sancto (On the Holy Spirit) by St. Basil the Great:

"66. Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or publicly enjoined which are preserved in the Church some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have received delivered to us in a mystery by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force. And these no one will gainsay — no one, at all events, who is even moderately versed in the institutions of the Church. For were we to attempt to reject such customs as have no written authority, on the ground that the importance they possess is small, we should unintentionally injure the Gospel in its very vitals; or, rather, should make our public definition a mere phrase and nothing more.

For instance, to take the first and most general example, who is thence who has taught us in writing to sign with the sign of the cross those who have trusted in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ? What writing has taught us to turn to the East at the prayer? Which of the saints has left us in writing the words of the invocation at the displaying of the bread of the Eucharist and the cup of blessing? For we are not, as is well known, content with what the apostle or the Gospel has recorded, but both in preface and conclusion we add other words as being of great importance to the validity of the ministry, and these we derive from unwritten teaching. Moreover we bless the water of baptism and the oil of the chrism, and besides this the catechumen who is being baptized. On what written authority do we do this? Is not our authority silent and mystical tradition? Nay, by what written word is the anointing of oil itself taught? And whence comes the custom of baptizing thrice? And as to the other customs of baptism from what Scripture do we derive the renunciation of Satan and his angels? Does not this come from that unpublished and secret teaching which our fathers guarded in a silence out of the reach of curious meddling and inquisitive investigation? Well had they learned the lesson that the awful dignity of the mysteries is best preserved by silence. What the uninitiated are not even allowed to look at was hardly likely to be publicly paraded about in written documents. What was the meaning of the mighty Moses in not making all the parts of the tabernacle open to every one? The profane he stationed without the sacred barriers; the first courts he conceded to the purer; the Levites alone he judged worthy of being servants of the Deity; sacrifices and burnt offerings and the rest of the priestly functions he allotted to the priests; one chosen out of all he admitted to the shrine, and even this one not always but on only one day in the year, and of this one day a time was fixed for his entry so that he might gaze on the Holy of Holies amazed at the strangeness and novelty of the sight. Moses was wise enough to know that contempt stretches to the trite and to the obvious, while a keen interest is naturally associated with the unusual and the unfamiliar.

 In the same manner the Apostles and Fathers who laid down laws for the Church from the beginning thus guarded the awful dignity of the mysteries in secrecy and silence, for what is bruited abroad random among the common folk is no mystery at all. This is the reason for our tradition of unwritten precepts and practices, that the knowledge of our dogmas may not become neglected and contemned by the multitude through familiarity. Dogma and Kerugma are two distinct things; the former is observed in silence; the latter is proclaimed to all the world. One form of this silence is the obscurity employed in Scripture, which makes the meaning of dogmas difficult to be understood for the very advantage of the reader: Thus we all look to the East at our prayers, but few of us know that we are seeking our own old country, Paradise, which God planted in Eden in the East. Genesis 2:8 We pray standing, on the first day of the week, but we do not all know the reason. On the day of the resurrection (or standing again Grk. ἀ νάστασις) we remind ourselves of the grace given to us by standing at prayer, not only because we rose with Christ, and are bound to seek those things which are above, Colossians 3:1 but because the day seems to us to be in some sense an image of the age which we expect, wherefore, though it is the beginning of days, it is not called by Moses first, but one. For he says There was evening, and there was morning, one day, as though the same day often recurred. Now one and eighth are the same, in itself distinctly indicating that really one and eighth of which the Psalmist makes mention in certain titles of the Psalms, the state which follows after this present time, the day which knows no waning or eventide, and no successor, that age which ends not or grows old. Of necessity, then, the church teaches her own foster children to offer their prayers on that day standing, to the end that through continual reminder of the endless life we may not neglect to make provision for our removal there. Moreover all Pentecost is a reminder of the resurrection expected in the age to come. For that one and first day, if seven times multiplied by seven, completes the seven weeks of the holy Pentecost; for, beginning at the first, Pentecost ends with the same, making fifty revolutions through the like intervening days. And so it is a likeness of eternity, beginning as it does and ending, as in a circling course, at the same point. On this day the rules of the church have educated us to prefer the upright attitude of prayer, for by their plain reminder they, as it were, make our mind to dwell no longer in the present but in the future. Moreover every time we fall upon our knees and rise from off them we show by the very deed that by our sin we fell down to earth, and by the loving kindness of our Creator were called back to heaven.

67. Time will fail me if I attempt to recount the unwritten mysteries of the Church. Of the rest I say nothing; but of the very confession of our faith in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, what is the written source? If it be granted that, as we are baptized, so also under the obligation to believe, we make our confession in like terms as our baptism, in accordance with the tradition of our baptism and in conformity with the principles of true religion, let our opponents grant us too the right to be as consistent in our ascription of glory as in our confession of faith. If they deprecate our doxology on the ground that it lacks written authority, let them give us the written evidence for the confession of our faith and the other matters which we have enumerated. While the unwritten traditions are so many, and their bearing on the mystery of godliness 1 Timothy 3:16 is so important, can they refuse to allow us a single word which has come down to us from the Fathers;— which we found, derived from untutored custom, abiding in unperverted churches;— a word for which the arguments are strong, and which contributes in no small degree to the completeness of the force of the mystery?"
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 11:25:41 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

Daily Morning Offering: O my God, in union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary,  I offer Thee the Precious Blood of Jesus from all the Altars  throughout the world, joining with It the offering of my every thought, word, and action of this day. I desire to gain every Indulgence and Merit I can, offering them, together with myself, to Mary Immaculate, Whom Thou hast appointed the dispenser of the merits of Thy Precious Blood, especially by means of this Scapular  [Here kiss your Brown Scapular] that She may best apply them to the interests of Thy Most Sacred Heart. Amen.

Consecration to Our Blessed Mother: My Queen, my Mother! I give myself entirely to Thee, and to show my devotion to Thee I consecrate to Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve, Wherefore, good Mother, as I am Thine own, keep me, guard me, as Thy property and possession." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/morning-offering.htm

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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 05:40:33 PM »
That's a half truth. Protestants also deny the truth of everything they cannot find in their scriptures.

The Protestant position denies that dogmas of the faith can be found outside the scriptural record or be unrelated to it. In this limited sense, Catholics can agree. The problem is that Protestantism takes it a step further and abides to the principle of the formal sufficiency of Scripture, namely that all doctrines necessary for our salvation are formally presented therein. This is contrasted to the more nuanced position of the Catholic exegete who abides to the material sufficiency of Scripture, defended by a majority of the Church Fathers, which states that all salutary doctrines of the faith can be found, directly or indirectly, in the sacred texts. Apostolic tradition and the praxis of the Church only expound upon it.

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That would make the Gospel of John sufficient unto salvation.

That we may believe in the divinity of the Son, and by believing in Him be reconciled to the Father, was the purpose for St. John writing his gospel. Hence, we can admit that is materially sufficient unto salvation in the sense that it contends for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

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Ironic then that when one reads his Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching, one finds so much stated dogmatically that cannot be found directly in scripture.

Not directly but indirectly.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2019, 05:48:03 PM »
Quote
Could you please indicate any words, miracles or teachings of Christ that the Church knows of and that have not been preserved in the Scriptures? Of course not.

The Assumption of Mary (she didn't pull herself into there nor is this explicitly stated in Scripture).

Apocalypse 12 is materially sufficient to support the dogma of the Assumption.

Quote
The simple canon argument alone defeats it.

The canon argument certainly defeats the idea of divorcing scriptural interpretation from the life and tradition of the Church.

However, one should be more cautious about the argument since it does not prove any sort of institutional infallibility per se or elevate the institution as the judge of God's oracles. The Church is as much proven from Scripture, as Scripture is proven from the living Church. They're interdependent realities. The Christian Church recognizes the voice of Her Shepherd, just as the Jewish Church did regarding the OT, and we all know how much trouble the Jewish Church got into.
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2019, 06:18:48 PM »
Quote
Apocalypse 12 is materially sufficient to support the dogma of the Assumption.

Of course.  And I've yet to see a sola scriptura heretic believe in the Assumption after being shown the evidence in Scripture.

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However, one should be more cautious about the argument since it does not prove any sort of institutional infallibility

One argument need not explain every Catholic dogma.  Apologetics has many tools in its belt.

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The Christian Church recognizes the voice of Her Shepherd, just as the Jewish Church did regarding the OT

I've heard James White say that a thousand times.

Obviously the Protestants don't hear the voice of the Shepherd in Maccabees, again destroying that argument.  They simply listened to the heretic Luther whom listened to rabbinic Jews, which is pretty much the absolute dead last place anyone should turn to learn about Christianity.  What did Jesus say about those whom rejected Him?  Which voice is it the Protestants hear in rejecting Scripture?
 

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2019, 09:08:52 PM »
Of course. And I've yet to see a sola scriptura heretic believe in the Assumption after being shown the evidence in Scripture.

That's because they ascribe to formal sufficiency of Scripture, not just mere material sufficiency. Therefore, they lack the ecclesiastical context that makes sense out of the dogma, correlating it with the scriptural texts and the tradition and praxis of the Church. The point is that the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin does not prove that there are contents of the faith not found in Scripture. They're all found in there, either explicitly or implicitly. As Cyril of Jerusalem pointed out: for this salvation, which is of our faith, is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the Holy Scriptures.

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They simply listened to the heretic Luther whom listened to rabbinic Jews, which is pretty much the absolute dead last place anyone should turn to learn about Christianity.

The method of learning about the OT from the Jews was employed by St. Jerome as well.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 09:22:09 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2019, 09:26:47 PM »
Quote
The method of learning about the OT from the Jews was employed by St. Jerome as well.

I was unaware and so Googled for a second - it appears he studied Hebrew with a Christian whom was a former Jew.  Is this what you mean or did he elsewhere go and consult with rabbis as to what the OT means?
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2019, 10:11:13 PM »
Quote
The method of learning about the OT from the Jews was employed by St. Jerome as well.

I was unaware and so Googled for a second - it appears he studied Hebrew with a Christian whom was a former Jew.  Is this what you mean or did he elsewhere go and consult with rabbis as to what the OT means?

It is common knowledge that Jerome spent a decade in Palestine studying under rabbis in order to produce a faithful translation of the OT into Latin. For instance, in John Y. B. Hood's book Aquinas and the Jews, available for free in Google Books, we read the following:

Jerome settled in Palestine in 381, primarily in order to study Hebrew. His goal was to master the language so he could produce an accurate Latin translation of the Old Testament. During the ten-year period he was at work on this project, Jerome was in constant contact with Jews, studying under several rabbinic tutors and also meeting with learned Jews in more informal settings. Jerome was an avid pupil, and he respected the rabbis' knowledge of the language, though he sometimes complained that they charged him too much. His masters taught Jerome more than just Hebrew grammar and syntax, however; he was also influenced by their methods of biblical interpretation. According to Marcel Simon, Jerome was "nourished on [the] Jewish traditions he...gleaned from the rabbis, who were his masters in exegesis as well as in the Hebrew tongue." These discussions - which, Jerome claimed, the rabbis usually initiated - sometimes degenerated into acrimonious disputes over the meaning of the Hebrew text, with Jerome defending Christological interpretations while the rabbis attacked his position. Such contests honed his polemical skills and, more importantly, introduced him to the methods of rabbinic exegesis. (Chap. 1, pp. 15-16)

In the Jewish Virtual Library, on the entry about Jerome, there are more details about his stay in Palestine:

In 386 he settled in Bethlehem, where he directed a monastery and devoted his time to study. He obtained money to found the monastery from one of his female followers in Rome, Paula, who traveled with several friends to Bethlehem, where she founded three nunneries. In Bethlehem Jerome continued his study of the Hebrew language, which he had previously studied in Syria. He had several Jewish teachers: one came from Lydda, and the second, named Bar-Ḥanina, came from Tiberias. Out of fear of the Jews, the latter was sometimes compelled, according to Jerome, to visit him at night, and at times he even sent another Jew, named Nicodemus, to take his place. At that time the Jews derided gentiles who could not pronounce the pharyngeals properly. Jerome, however, attained such a degree of proficiency in his pronunciation of Hebrew that the transcriptions of Hebrew words in his writings are important for knowledge of Hebrew pronunciation at that time.

The study of Hebrew prepared Jerome for his important work – a Latin translation of the Bible from the original. This translation, together with his translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, was accepted as the official version of the Scriptures in the Catholic Church, and is known as the Vulgate from its Latin name, Vulgata. He translated the Book of Psalms three times. The first time, he translated it from the Greek, and this translation was taken into the Catholic liturgy. His second translation was included in the conventional version of the Vulgate, based on the work of Origen (c. 182–251), who had collated the Septuagint with the Hebrew version. Finally, when he translated the Bible from Hebrew, he once more translated the Book of Psalms, a translation which did not gain admission either into the official Christian text of the Scriptures or into Christian worship. Jerome also made various translations of the Books of Judith and Tobit from an Aramaic version that has since disappeared and of the additions in the Greek translation of Daniel. He did not regard as canonical works the Books of Ben Sira and Baruch, the Epistle of Jeremy, the first two Books of the Maccabees, the third and fourth Books of Ezra, and the additions to the Book of Esther in the Septuagint. The Latin translations of these works in present-day editions of the Vulgate are not from his pen.


In the Jewish Encyclopedia:

It was in Bethlehem that he devoted himself most seriously to Hebrew studies. Here he had as teachers several Jews, one of whom taught him reading ("Hebræus autem qui nos in veteris instrumenti lectione erudivit"; comm. on Isa. xxii. 17); the peculiar pronunciation of Hebrew often found in Jerome's works was probably therefore derived from this Jew. Jerome was not satisfied to study with any one Jew, but applied to several, choosing always the most learned (preface to Hosea: "diceremque . . . quid ab Hebræorum magistris vix uno et altero acceperim"; "Epistolæ," lxxiii. 9 [i. 443]: "hæc ab eruditissimis gentis illius didicimus"). With similar words Jerome is always attempting to inspire confidence in his exegesis; but they must not be taken too literally, as he was wont to boast of his scholarship. However, he was doubtless in a position to obtain the opinions of several Jews; for he often refers to "quidam Hebræorum." He even traveled in the province of Palestine with his Jewish friends, in order to become better acquainted with the scenes of Biblical history (preface to "Paralipomena," i.); one of them was his guide (preface to Nahum).

(...)

Jerome's exegesis is Jewish in spirit, reflecting the methods of the Palestinian haggadists. He expressly states, in certain cases, that he adopts the Jewish opinion, especially when he controverts Christian opponents and errors (comm. on Joel iv. 11: "nobis autem Hebræorum opinionem sequentibus"); he reproduces the Jewish exegesis both in letter (comm. on Amos v. 18-19) and in substance (παραφραστικῶς; comm. on Dan. ix. 24). Hence he presents Jewish exegesis from the purely Jewish point of view. Even the language of the Haggadah appears in his commentaries, e.g., where the explanation is given in the form of question and answer (comm. on Dan. ii. 12: quærunt Hebræi"); or when he says, in explaining, "This it is that is said" ("Hoc est quod dicitur"; comp. ); or when several opinions are cited on the same subject ("alii Judæorum"); or when a disputation is added thereto ("Epistola xix. ad Hedibiam," i. 55). He even uses technical phrases, such as "The wise men teach" ("Epistolæ," cxxi.) or "One may read" (comm. on Nahum. iii. 8 ). This kind of haggadic exegesis, which is merely intended to introduce a homiletic remark, leads Jerome to accuse the Jews unjustly of being arbitrary in their interpretation of the Bible text. But he did not believe that the Jews corrupted the text, as Christians frequently accused them of doing. While at Rome he obtained from a Jew a synagogue-roll ("Epistolæ," xxxvi. 1) because he considered the Hebrew text as the only correct one, as the "Hebraica veritas," which from this time on he regarded as authoritative in all exegetical disputes. Jerome hereby laid down the law for Bible exegesis.
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 05:53:35 AM »
Thank you.  Do you have any Catholic sources that teach that St. Jerome learned the meaning of the OT from rabbis?  The sources you provided are Jewish (Marcel Simon, JVL, JE).  The potentially non-Jewish source provided (Mr. Hood) merely states that he learned Hebrew from them, which is irrelevant.

I am interested to know if there are great Catholic saints whom turned to rabbis to learn the meaning of Scripture.  Or is it just the heretics whom did this.  I suspect its the latter but it'd be interesting to know if that is not the case.