Author Topic: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?  (Read 1366 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2019, 09:18:45 AM »
Three more patristic testimonies. Mary Immaculate is called Panagia (All-Holy), Prokathartheisa (sole Prepurified One), Panamomos or Stainless and other such expressions in authentic Eastern Tradition indicating Her All-Holy and Immaculate Perfection. This was also declared in Councils. Only later people who were sinners themselves dared to declare that the Mother of God was supposedly a sinner or supposedly was born in sin.

What an insult to God to say His Mother was a sinner, was born in sin, was created less than Eve, or was subject to Satan and sin even for a moment.

[III] St. John of Damascus: "O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! Oh glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.”

[IV] Patriarch St. Sophronius of Jerusalem: "Many Saints appeared before You. But none was filled with grace as You. No one has been purified in advance as You have been." Another clear testimony that Mary the Sole Immaculate One was "Prepurified in Advance" (Prokathartheisa), as the Greek Fathers like to say.

[V] St. Fulgentius of Ruspe : "By these words [Hail, full of grace], the angel shows that She [Mary] was altogether excluded from the wrath of the first sentence, and restored to the full grace of blessing.

Canon 3 of the 649 Lateran Council under Pope St. Martin I calls Mary Immaculate in passing, "Canon 3. If anyone does not properly and truly confess in accord with the holy Fathers, that the holy Mother of God and ever Virgin and immaculate Mary in the earliest of the ages conceived of the Holy Spirit without seed, namely, God the Word Himself specifically and truly, who was born of God the Father before all ages, and that she incorruptibly bore Him, her virginity remaining indestructible even after His birth, let him be condemned."

Nicaea II, 787 A.D., also confirms the decrees of Ephesus and Chalcedon and calls Mary Immaculate matter-of-factly, "With the Fathers of this synod we confess that he who was incarnate of the immaculate Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary has two natures, recognizing him as perfect God and perfect man, as also the Council of Chalcedon has promulgated,"

Also, St. Symeon the New Theologian, leading exponent of Byzantine Theology, has explained, "[Jesus Christ]being Himself at once God and man, His flesh and soul were and are holy - and beyond holy. God is holy, just as He was and is and shall be, and the Virgin is immaculate, without spot or stain, and so, too, was that rib which was taken from Adam. However the rest of humanity, even though they are His brothers and kin according to the flesh, yet remained even as they were, of dust, and did not immediately become holy and sons of God."
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 09:28:02 AM by Xavier »
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St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this year; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen."

"O blessed Virgin, Mother of God, look down in mercy from Heaven, where thou art enthroned as Queen, upon me, a miserable sinner, thine unworthy servant. Although I know full well my own unworthiness, yet in order to atone for the offenses that are done to thee by impious and blasphemous tongues, from the depths of my heart I praise and extol thee as the purest, the fairest, the holiest creature of all God's handiwork. I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race. [20]" [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] Come, let us empty Purgatory: Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us:

Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2019, 10:01:21 AM »
Nowhere does Vatican II state it's non-binding.

Do some research.  Yes it does.
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2019, 11:52:30 AM »
Nowhere does Vatican II state it's non-binding.

Do some research.  Yes it does.

I’ve looked at Vatican II more times than an ordinary person, and nowhere does it say it’s non-binding.

Pope Paul VI said that it’s Ordinary Magisterial Authority, which at a minimum, means that Catholics are bound by it, even if a person privately disagrees with it.

Extraordinary means it’s binding and nobody is allowed to question it.

But there’s one Magisterium.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 11:55:17 AM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2019, 05:21:52 PM »
"Binding" is operative (for a lay person) when a document or announcement commands laymen to activate something internally (by way of positive belief) or externally (by way of physical action).

Internal belief:  The immaculate Conception/The Assumption of Our Blessed Mother/the Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ.  A layperson must both privately assent to these De Fide dogmas and profess them orally, such as in liturgical prayers, mysteries of the rosary, etc.  A layperson need not rationally understand all those dogmas (and all others), but he or she needs to sincerely assent to their truth.

External action: All members of the Catholic Church, except those exempt by age or medical reason, shall conform to the fasting and abstinence rules on appointed days.

Because the layperson, prior to V2, could trust the Church never to contradict itself (he could trust by experience and logic that proclaimed truths were all harmonious with each other), whatever the Church pronounced was never problematic to the sincere believer, even if a confused one needed more individual catechesis from his priest.  He was sure to receive that reliable catechesis from (previously) uniformly well-trained priests and resolve most if not all of his intellectual doubts, especially with the help of grace.

Catholics, as Michael and several others of us have pointed out over the years on SD, must refuse to assent to doctrine that the permanent deposit of faith has always declared to be heretical.  We are not allowed to believe in 2 or 4 Persons in one Godhead, nor are we allowed to believe in many different religions, all of which "might have something to say" to the layperson, and regard them as salvific.  EENS means that men are saved only through the Catholic Church and not through other means.  Even modernists understand and profess that.

Further, the vast majority of the Council documents, despite the inflated titles of some of them, did not declare new dogma as much as they offered theological possibilities and speculation about how the Church relates to the world and to other religions.  They did not order bishops and priests to allow or order controversial forms of worship and catechesis, even though it suggested many "possibilities" in a rather vague, idealized,and romanticized way.  In fact, the biggest problem with the entire Council, according to priests of the time especially, was its very non-specific language.  "What do I do with this?" was the oft-heard refrain from parish priests.  And overwhelmingly, the documents were written for clergy, not laity.  That's what a pastoral document or set of them is all about:  instructions or guidelines to the leadership, not to the followers.