Author Topic: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?  (Read 2616 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2019, 06:00:04 PM »
V.O.
I'm not going to attempt to demonstrate the contradictions between Vatican II and the previous magisterium; this is after all a Tradtionalist forum; its a given.

You don't need to demonstrate that, Michael. After all, traditional Catholics cannot even agree among themselves as to which previous teachings are contradicted in the documents of Vatican II.

What you would need to establish, though, is the moral permissibility, within the Cathlolic model, for laymen and individual clerics to reject an Ecumenical Council that has been accepted as valid and true by six Popes and the whole episcopate of the Church to this very day.

Or the moral permissibility for laymen and individual clerics to declare the see vacant against the consensus of the whole Catholic episcopate.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:07:48 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 06:51:03 PM »
V.O.
I don't have to demonstrate it, because you have been a trad and seen all the arguments and you don't accept them; there isn't anything that I will say that you haven't heard already.
As to there not being a consensus among trads: if we stick to the original definition of Traditionalist Catholic, to those who rejected Vatican II and the N.O.M. There very broad consensus; however, since the right to celebrate and attend the T.LM. Has been extended to Catholics who accept both, the definition of "traditionalist" has been broadened to reduce the meaning of the term to practically anyone who likes the T.L.M. Or even polyphonic music. 
As to the "moral right" of lay Catholics and even bishops to reject non-Catholic teaching; its a fundamental right and duty of every Catholic, whether lay or clerical whatever their rank. Just because you "can't see" the elephant in the room, doesn't mean that others who can, will be happy to allow themselves to be trampled by it.
Since we don't agree on the fundamental questions, our discussions do go anywhere.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2019, 08:47:18 PM »

I have to commend you on your consistency; unfortunately that leaves you without the Catholic Church as the true Church.

If I stick with the "canon of St. Vincent," and believe what has been believed "at all times, in all places, by all Catholics," then I am safe. I can reject all novelties from whichever direction they come.
 

Vatican II contradicted previously defined doctrine; Catholics cannot consistently accept Vatican II and the magisterium prior to this Council.

You raise an interesting point which I had not considered until you phrased it so succinctly.

Which of these is the correct position for a Catholic?
1. I reject all teachings which contradict prior teachings of the Church.
2. I reject all novelties which have not previously been taught before.

It seems to me that traditional Catholics are divided between these two schools, but I haven't ever seen the issue be addressed directly.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2019, 10:31:28 PM »
I'm having flash backs to Angel Queen days.  I accept Vat. II.  It clearly states it is not binding.  I fully accept that.
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2019, 04:25:46 AM »
V.O.
I'm not going to attempt to demonstrate the contradictions between Vatican II and the previous magisterium; this is after all a Tradtionalist forum; its a given.

You don't need to demonstrate that, Michael. After all, traditional Catholics cannot even agree among themselves as to which previous teachings are contradicted in the documents of Vatican II.

Mortalium Animos and Unitatis Redintigratio.

There. That should be sufficient.

The only reason why any Catholic would say that the former didn't contradict the latter is for some attempt of consistency in following the requirements set forth by Vatican I of obedience. That doesn't change the fact that the sentences and ideology are logically contradictory, even down to the question of what "Ut Unum Sint" meant.


This is the single most clear issue of Vatican II. Had Vatican II not produced this document, I think that the Trad movement would be much smaller.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 04:43:45 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2019, 04:32:59 AM »
I'm having flash backs to Angel Queen days.  I accept Vat. II.  It clearly states it is not binding.  I fully accept that.

It's absolutely binding. It's an exercise of the Papal Magisterium; nobody denies that.

While there is debate among Catholics about whether or not it's extraordinary or ordinary (For an Ecumenical Council is the former, yet Pope Paul VI said himself it's the latter), it's still part of one, single Magisterium, of which Catholics are bound to submit.

Why would Pope Paul VI call 2000 Bishops to Rome, and produce several doctrinal documents, and make those documents the clear discipline of the Roman Church (and Eastern Catholic Churches) such that every single mainstream Catholic Church follows it, only for it to be "non-binding."

Nowhere does Vatican II state it's non-binding.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 04:44:17 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2019, 07:39:17 AM »
Oh please. The Greek and Russian Churches once believed the Immaculate Conception, they even believed it more explicitly than the West. Now, they condemn it, though the Byzantine Liturgy still teaches it. It's they who've totally and blatantly innovated, as history and Tradition shows St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Damascene, St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, among several others, teaching the IC. They also totally departed from Apostolic Tradition on contraception and the sin of onan post 1950 or so, owing to secularist pressure.

Ecumenism is not a dogma by any means, it is a purely pastoral and prudential question. The true teaching is the "Ecumenism of Return" of both Pope Pius XII and Pope Benedict XVI, i.e. the return of dissident Christians to Catholic Faith and Catholic Unity with the Throne of St. Peter the Apostle, the only true means of restoring union among Christians.

"The Catholic Church, although she does not take part in congresses and other conventions called "ecumenical," yet has never ceased, as is clear from many Pontifical documents, nor will she in future ever cease, to follow with the most intense interest and to promote by earnest prayers to God, all efforts toward the attainment of what is so dear to the Heart of Christ Our Lord, namely, that all who believe in Him "may be made perfect in one."[1] For she embraces with truly maternal affection all who return to her as the true Church of Christ; and hence, worthy of all. praise and encouragement are all those plans and projects which, with the consent of Ecclesiastical Authority, have been undertaken and are being carried forward, either for the proper Catholic instruction of future converts or for the more thorough training of persons already converted to the faith.

Now in many parts of the world, as a result of various external events and changes of views on the part of people, but especially in consequence of the common prayers of-the faithful through the grace of the Holy Spirit, there has grown constantly in the minds of many persons separated from the Catholic Church the desire for a return to unity on the part of all who believe in the Lord Christ. To the children of the Church this is surely a cause of true and holy joy in the Lord, and at the same time an invitation to help all those who sincerely seek the truth, by earnest prayer to God imploring for them the grace of light and strength. However, some of the initiatives that have hitherto been taken by various individuals or groups, with the aim of reconciling dissident Christians to the Catholic Church, although inspired by the best of intentions, are not always based on right principles, or if they are, yet they are not free from special dangers, as experience too has already shown." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecumenical-movement-2070

Yes, there are some dangers, we know that, but we will go ahead, and are not afraid to do so; the fruit will be the full re-union of the Churches under the Roman Catholic Church in God's Good Time. God and Our Lady have already promised it, and it will surely happen.

Edit: Orthodox Priest Fr. Laurent Cleenewirck writes, "6. Liturgical Expressions: The Eastern Tradition has always considered the Conception of the Theotokos to be a miraculous event. Joachim and Anna, elderly and barren were given by the power of God's blessings on account of their prayers. The Orthodox Churches celebrate Her Nativity on the 8th of September, but the Feast of Mary's Conception was advanced to 9th December. If the principle of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi is to be applied to this issue, it seems that Orthodox Hymnography presents Mary as Truly Panagia (All-Holy) entirely free from sin and stain ("Immaculate") from the point of Her Conception. The Liturgical Texts for December 9th exclaim,

This Day, O Faithful, from saintly parents begins to take being the Spotless Lamb, the Most Pure Tabernacle, Mary.

Having conceived the Most-Pure Dove ...

The Unique All-Immaculate [Mary] is today made manifest to the Just by the Angel. He who announced the Conception of the All-Immaculate Virgin gave our human race news of great joy. The prelude of God's Grace falls today [on the day of the Theotokos' Conception by St. Anne] in the Conception of the All-Immaculate"


The fact that the Catholic Church, by the Grace of God, thanks to the Papacy, preserved the Catholic Faith in the Immaculate Conception, which those who now deny can never be saved, shows just how important and necessary ex cathedra Papal Infallibility is.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 07:45:43 AM by Xavier »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2019, 08:09:01 AM »
Oh please. The Greek and Russian Churches once believed the Immaculate Conception, they even believed it more explicitly than the West. Now, they condemn it, though the Byzantine Liturgy still teaches it. It's they who've totally and blatantly innovated, as history and Tradition shows St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, St. John Damascene, St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Fulgentius of Ruspe, among several others, teaching the IC. They also totally departed from Apostolic Tradition on contraception and the sin of onan post 1950 or so, owing to secularist pressure.

Xavier, I've answered this question millions of times, yet you don't listen on this one point.

The Orthodox Church rejects the Immaculate Conception, as a specific dogma, because it has Augustinian / Western Scholastic theology not only attached to it but said theology modifies the Traditional teaching of the Virgin Mary. The Orthodox Church, by and large, rejects the Western developments of Original Sin and rejects the "Treasury of Merits" theology, yet both of these things are implicit in the Immaculate Conception dogma. Moreover, in it's application of these two aspects of theology, it not only specifically kicks aside the traditional idea that the Holy Spirit sanctified the Theotokos from the first moment of her conception, and was personally sinless, and replaces it with the idea that it was through the Infinite Merits of Christ that she was able to be born without Original Sin. It also logically implies that the Virgin Mary had Pre-Fallen human nature, something alien to Tradition and even Thomas Aquinas.

The Orthodox Church commemorates the Conception of the Theotokos as an important feast day and has within its Tradition, and we have Saints whose theology says that the Virgin Mary was sanctified by the Holy Spirit from the first moment of her conception. This Tradition does not logically mean, in the slightest, that the Orthodox Church believes that the Virgin Mary had Pre-Fallen human nature through Christ's Infinite Merits.


Pope Pius IX
"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

Quote
They also totally departed from Apostolic Tradition on contraception and the sin of onan post 1950 or so, owing to secularist pressure.

"Oh please." That's a whole other bag of apologetics which has been debunked time and time again, because pragmatically, the Orthodox Church is actually far more strict than Rome is on contraception.

Orthodoxy believes in something called "Economia," or "economy." That is, in some certain cases, the Priest with permission of the Bishop, can allow things that are usually immoral or non-canonical, due to necessity or for the moral betterment of the soul.

Contraception in Orthodoxy is only permitted insofar as Economia is concerned.


Roman Catholicism, on the other hand, has fully endorsed NFP as normative in its contraceptive use. Roman Catholics are allowed to use NFP to prevent childbirth, something that many Traditionalist Catholics will readily point out to you as a flagrant contradiction from traditional teaching.

Orthodoxy sees no logical difference between artificial contraception and natural contraception because they are both just that - contraception.



Xavier, let me ask you a question - say you have a situation where you have a woman who is raped, or pressured to have sex, on a regular basis by her husband, and she's in a situation where she doesn't have the proper mental state or resources to be able to leave her husband. Her husband uses contraception. Would she be a hell-bound sinner because she participates in sexual intercourse using contraception? When she brings this up in Confession, should the Priest recommend that she doesn't use contraception because it's the "Sin of Oman?"


Quote
Ecumenism is not a dogma by any means, it is a purely pastoral and prudential question. The true teaching is the "Ecumenism of Return" of both Pope Pius XII and Pope Benedict XVI, i.e. the return of dissident Christians to Catholic Faith and Catholic Unity with the Throne of St. Peter the Apostle, the only true means of restoring union among Christians.

It's a "pastoral and prudential" practice that was seen as mortally sinful. Hence the title of Pope Pius XI's document "Mortalium Animos". Rome cannot permit Mortally Sinful disciplines, but Eppur si muove.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:21:13 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2019, 08:15:15 AM »
Take any actual Catholic Doctrine or Dogma of the Faith and study its history in the Fathers, Saints, Popes and Doctors, and what one will be left with is a stunning confirmation of the almost incredible consistency of the Successors of St. Peter in the Holy Roman Church.

1. Catholic Faith in the Holy Trinity, including the Filioque (denied by Arians, Macedonians, Monopatrites etc): Taught by the early Saintly Bishops like St. Augustine, St. Athanasius, St. Ambrose, St. Basil, St. Chrysostom, and taught by all Popes, including Pope St. Pius V, in the Catechism of the Council of Trent, Pope St. Pius X in his Catechism, and in the recently released Catechism of the Catholic Church.

2. Catholic Faith in the Incarnation, including the Hypostatic Union (denied by Nestorians, Eutychians strict Monophysites etc) : Again, taught by all the early Saints, but especially more explicitly from the time of His Holiness Pope St. Leo the Great, and taught all the way down to the current CCC. All these doctrines and dogmas are still taught in the Catechism, for anyone who actually goes and reads them.

3. Catholic Faith in the Prerogatives and Privileges of the All-Holy Immaculate Virgin Mother of God: Already taught in the earliest Saints, as mentioned before, it is still taught to the present day in every single authorized Catholic Catechism. And always will be.

4. Catholic Faith in Purgatory: Already taught by St. Cyprian, St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great and numerous other Saints, Fathers and Doctors, once more one has to marvel at the incredible consistency and amazing harmony of 2000 years of Catholic Tradition.

5. Catholic Faith in Papal Primacy: This was already attested by Fr. Philip at the Council of Ephesus as the Faith of the Universal Church in all times and all places. After the Council of Chalcedon and its virtually infallible pronouncements that St. Peter and Pope St. Leo the Great is the Rock of the Church in excommunicating Dioscorus, that should be well known to all, it is ridiculous to deny it any longer.

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice-blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the Rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him (Dioscorus, Bishop of Alexandria) of his episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness." -- Acts of Chalcedon, Session 3 http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/a35.htm

""It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue, not excepting those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople...." (Schaff, page 166)" http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline Xavier

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2019, 08:20:32 AM »
Quote from: Return of Live
The Orthodox Church rejects the Immaculate Conception

All who now reject the Immaculate Conception Dogma are anathema, do so to their own perdition and can never ever see the Face of God.

Quote
the Western developments of Original Sin

Yes, this is the popular apologia, but it is wrong. Original sin is taught in early Fathers and ancient canons, "Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration." (From the Council of Carthage, 418 A.D.) https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/carthage_canons_on_sin_and_grace.htm

Edit: St. Augustine does not exclude even infants here below, who have no personal sin. He excludes only the Holy Virgin Mary, saying She had no sin. Infants have no actual sin, but they are born deprived of original grace. The Blessed Virgin was conceived "Full of Grace".

Bishop St. Augustine of Hippo: "We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon Her Who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. (1 John 3:5) Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin while they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? … would they not have exclaimed with one voice: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us? (1 John 1:8 )"

Edit: Also, if "oikonomia" or economy were a valid concept, then the Church can very well, with Her authority to bind and loose, use a slightly stricter or slightly more benevolent method toward separated children, according as She deems more of them to be obstinate in heresy or schism, or in more relatively good faith, at different points in time. And thus, economy refutes your entire claim.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:27:08 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2019, 08:21:20 AM »
Max stated:
Quote
If I stick with the "canon of St. Vincent," and believe what has been believed "at all times, in all places, by all Catholics," then I am safe. I can reject all novelties from whichever direction they come.
Its not the Catholic position; first, because there is no agreement on the "everywhere, always, everyone"; second, because many established teachings of the Church were once disputed by many, for example, such as the  Divinity of Our Lord were even contested during the time of the Apostles, by the Gnostics and Ebionites.
Third, Our Lord did not leave a body of Tradition to be the sure norm of the faith for His Church, but the teaching authority based on the rock of St. Peter.
Max asked:
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Which of these is the correct position for a Catholic?
1. I reject all teachings which contradict prior teachings of the Church.
2. I reject all novelties which have not previously been taught before.

It seems to me that traditional Catholics are divided between these two schools, but I haven't ever seen the issue be addressed directly.
Reject all teachings that have been rejected by the Church.
The Church is traditional in its transmission of doctrine, but some doctrines are not taught explicitly but only are made explicit when a dispute or controversy arises and the magisterium must step in to clarify or settle the dispute.
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2019, 08:23:46 AM »
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The Orthodox Church rejects the Immaculate Conception

All who reject the Immaculate Conception Dogma do so to their own perdition and can never ever see the Face of God.


Well then "God" can send me to Hell for disobeying an institution that tells me something is Mortally Sinful one day, and the next day tells me it's guided by the Holy Spirit, because at this point, we aren't dealing with a God who is Goodness and is Unchanging, but we are dealing with a monster who burns people with fire forever based exclusively (not as a factor, but exclusively) on the time period they were born in. Ultimately, what this logically means is there is no objective goodness, there is no objective morality, and thus, "God" is not objectively good nor moral.

If you lived in 1962 and before, you are a hell-bound heretic for partaking in non-Catholic worship. Now, if you lived in 1963 and after, you can be made a Saint for dedicating your whole life to it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:44:56 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2019, 08:39:15 AM »
Edit: Also, if "oikonomia" or economy were a valid concept, then the Church can very well, with Her authority to bind and loose, use a slightly stricter or slightly more benevolent method toward separated children, according as She deems more of them to be obstinate in heresy or schism, or in more relatively good faith, at different points in time. And thus, economy refutes your entire claim.

(1) Rome doesn't have a concept of Economy, so you cannot apply the East's Paradigm to Rome's own paradigm.

(2) Even so, Economy does not permit immorality to become the discipline of the whole Church. Something that cannot happen, otherwise the Church either falls into heresy, apostasizes, or both.

Giving Economia to someone having trouble or being forced from leaving Pagan worship (less harsh punishments) is much different than the Church officially endorsing Pagan worship.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 09:11:15 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2019, 08:52:41 AM »
Third, Our Lord did not leave a body of Tradition to be the sure norm of the faith for His Church, but the teaching authority based on the rock of St. Peter.

Jude 1:3

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

2 Thessalonians 2:15
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

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Its not the Catholic position; first, because there is no agreement on the "everywhere, always, everyone"; second, because many established teachings of the Church were once disputed by many, for example, such as the  Divinity of Our Lord were even contested during the time of the Apostles, by the Gnostics and Ebionites.

Just because the true doctrine was disputed, doesn't necessarily entail that the true doctrine wasn't there, to begin with.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 08:54:39 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2019, 09:14:28 AM »
Quote from: Live
(1) Rome doesn't have a concept of Economy, so you cannot apply the East's Paradigm to Rome's own paradigm.

No, this is not correct at all. Rome has every right, and has often applied, accordingly as She has deemed more prudent, more strict or more benevolent measures toward those separated in heresy or in schism, based on whether they are formally culpable, or only in error. This I can easily prove even from Councils, but I will just show that St. Augustine applied such a method here, "though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics. Were it not that I believe you to be such, perhaps I would not write to you." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm

Also, we appreciate your concern, but you don't need to worry about Catholic Ecumenism - 100s of thousands of former Anglicans have happily come back to the Church. That is authentic Catholic Ecumenism. Traditional Catholics who love Holy Mother Church will work to correct abuses in due time.

Now, let's come to the Immaculata, whom you accuse of being in a poor, fallen sinful state:

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the traditional idea that the Holy Spirit sanctified the Theotokos from the first moment of her conception, and was personally sinless

This is exactly the traditional idea, and the defined doctrine, as it was through the Grace of God and the Blood of Christ that She is such.

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and replaces it with the idea that it was through the Infinite Merits of Christ that she was able to be born without Original Sin.

It was, otherwise, He is not Her Redeemer. But He is, and therefore it is indeed through His Infinite Merits that She is All-Immaculate.

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It also logically implies that the Virgin Mary had Pre-Fallen human nature

Yes, St. Andrew of Crete answers you: “Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God…. The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” Notice how St. Andrew says human natures reclaims its ancient privileges and is restored to its pristine dignity in Mary. https://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed-virgin-mary/#II_Marys_Immaculate_Conception

St. Ephraim of Syria had said, “Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” As Jesus is Immaculate by His own Nature as God, so too the Blessed Mother of God, the Theotokos, is Immaculate by His Gift of Grace.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 09:19:46 AM by Xavier »
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