Author Topic: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?  (Read 1107 times)

Offline Maximilian

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2019, 11:29:13 PM »
Quote
But he can and does. Whatever he declares, now it is tradition.
That's never happened.

Vatican I
Vatican II
The New Mass
The new sacraments
The new sexual morality of the family
The new rite of exorcism (that doesn't cast out devils)
The death penalty
etc, etc, etc.
 

Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2019, 11:30:51 PM »
Back to the topic, I think as far as temporal matters go the current set up is ideal.  Give the Pope a small independent kingdom so he stays independent.  Keep him out of politics which a large kingdom would entail.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

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Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2019, 11:32:22 PM »
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Vatican II
The New Mass
The new sacraments
The new sexual morality of the family
The new rite of exorcism (that doesn't cast out devils)
The death penalty

These are now "Tradition"?  No, they are novelties.  You yourself describe the "new" rite of exorcism.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2019, 11:32:47 PM »
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Why even bother to argue about the teachings of Vatican II?
The council itself states it is not binding.  I accept that.

A pope declared it is fallible.  I accept that.

No, this is false. At no point do any of the documents of Vatican II state that they are not infallible.

The documents of Vatican II are ratified by over 2,000 bishops and then "Solemnly Promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI." They are by definition the very essence of infallibility, whether you are using the Vatican I formulation or simply going by the traditional understanding.

 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2019, 11:34:25 PM »
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Vatican II
The New Mass
The new sacraments
The new sexual morality of the family
The new rite of exorcism (that doesn't cast out devils)
The death penalty

These are now "Tradition"?  No, they are novelties.  You yourself describe the "new" rite of exorcism.

They are novelties in your mind. They are the tradition of the current existing Catholic hierarchy as defined and confirmed by each of the popes since John XXIII.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2019, 11:40:08 PM »
Quote
No, this is false. At no point do any of the documents of Vatican II state that they are not infallible.

What is false?  Where have I made this claim?  Go back and read what I wrote.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2019, 11:43:55 PM »
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They are novelties in your mind. They are the tradition of the current existing Catholic hierarchy as defined and confirmed by each of the popes since John XXIII.
  You are putting words in their mouth.  Quote where any of the heretics have claimed the NEW sexual morality is Tradition, or the NEW rite of exorcism is Tradition.  I think on the Mass you have more ammo as I believe they claimed that there was a goal to go back to primitive forms.  Of course that was a lie, the goal was to kiss up to the Prots, but I'll give you that one.

But the idea of a NEW Tradition is an oxymoron. 
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline james03

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 11:46:01 PM »
And thus we get back to Non Nobis, who was correct:
Quote
It's tradition even before he formally says it is: e.g. the Immaculate Conception.

It's not tradition because he says it is - it has truth, and was passed down, in itself, he is just protected by the Holy Ghost from speaking against it (whether this is whenever he speaks or only under defined conditions, I won't argue about that).

And he can't define new tradition.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2019, 08:17:00 AM »
Look I've said this before, if Vatican I, a dogmatic Council can teach error, then the Catholic Church is not the true Church, but just another false religion alongside the other false religions.

Same reasoning can, and should, be applied to Vatican II.

Vatican II is the creation of the same Church that gave us Vatican I.
Yes, it could be, except that Vatican II explicitly contradicted previously defined doctrines; also, Paul VI publicly taught errors against these same doctrines and approved the N.O.M. And discipline that was harmful for souls. The Second Vatican Council was the single most disastrous event in the whole history of the Church.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2019, 08:22:10 AM »
Max stated:
Quote
Look, I've said this before, if Vatican II -- a dogmatic Council -- can teach error, then the Catholic Church is not the  true Church, but just another false religion.

Why even bother to argue about the teachings of Vatican II?

The proper Catholic attitude is not to question the teachings of Vatican II but to accept them.

Vatican II's declaration on Religious Liberty is infallible and must be held and believed in order to retain the right to be considered a Catholic.
Max,
 you don't accept the teachings of Vatican II.  Vatican II should have been protected by at least the negative infallibility of the Church; but it wasn't; it contradicted previous Church teachings. The answer that most fits the facts is that Paul VI was not the Pope.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 08:26:01 AM »
Max stated:
Quote

Vatican I
Vatican II
The New Mass
The new sacraments
The new sexual morality of the family
The new rite of exorcism (that doesn't cast out devils)
The death penalty
etc, etc, etc.[./size]
Right Max, and if the Catholic Church can teach error and introduce discipline that is harmful for souls, then it is not the sole ark of salvation established by Christ for the salvation of men; it is just another human institution and a false religion among others. So go and find the true religion or accept Vatican I and reject Vatican II and its consequences as not coming from the Church.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2019, 01:00:20 PM »
Look I've said this before, if Vatican I, a dogmatic Council can teach error, then the Catholic Church is not the true Church, but just another false religion alongside the other false religions.

Same reasoning can, and should, be applied to Vatican II.

Vatican II is the creation of the same Church that gave us Vatican I.
Yes, it could be, except that Vatican II explicitly contradicted previously defined doctrines; also, Paul VI publicly taught errors against these same doctrines and approved the N.O.M. And discipline that was harmful for souls. The Second Vatican Council was the single most disastrous event in the whole history of the Church.

The same Church that produced Vatican I, produced Vatican II. You can't escape this fact.

That Vatican II "explicitly contradicted previously defined doctrines" is your personal take, not Rome's.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2019, 01:48:07 PM »
Look I've said this before, if Vatican I, a dogmatic Council can teach error, then the Catholic Church is not the true Church, but just another false religion alongside the other false religions.

Same reasoning can, and should, be applied to Vatican II.

Vatican II is the creation of the same Church that gave us Vatican I.
Yes, it could be, except that Vatican II explicitly contradicted previously defined doctrines; also, Paul VI publicly taught errors against these same doctrines and approved the N.O.M. And discipline that was harmful for souls. The Second Vatican Council was the single most disastrous event in the whole history of the Church.

The same Church that produced Vatican I, produced Vatican II. You can't escape this fact.

That Vatican II "explicitly contradicted previously defined doctrines" is your personal take, not Rome's.

Unfortunately, there's a bigger problem, and that is the observable fact that the supposed continuity with previously defined doctrine is not a message yet received by the individual parishes.  It hadn't been received (or actually even delivered credibly) in 1962, '3, and '4, nor has it yet been received today. So there is a tremendous amount of practical heresy occurring, despite the intellectual protests of the establishment Church.  Discontinuity is the theme and reality on the ground, whatever it is in The See.

The objective heresy of how Catholicism is understood, prayed, and practiced is observable.  It is not just Michael's "personal take."
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2019, 03:53:04 PM »

So accept Vatican I and reject Vatican II and its consequences as not coming from the Church.

Accept Vatican I but reject Vatican II? How can you not see the logical inconsistency? As a Catholic, you either accept both or reject both. You can't pick and choose.

In your immediate prior post you yourself stated that the only possible explanation was that Paul VI was not a true pope. But anyone can make the same claim and make nonsense out of the Catholic Faith.

I accept everything believed and taught by the Catholic Church, (with the exception of):

1. I am a monophysite because Pope Leo I was not a true pope at the Council of Chalcedon.
2. I am an Arian because Pope Sylvester was not a true pope at the Council of Nicea.
3. I am a Jew because Pope Peter was not a true pope at the Council of Jerusalem.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: How far should Papal Ultramontanism go?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2019, 05:24:51 PM »

So accept Vatican I and reject Vatican II and its consequences as not coming from the Church.

Accept Vatican I but reject Vatican II? How can you not see the logical inconsistency? As a Catholic, you either accept both or reject both. You can't pick and choose.

In your immediate prior post you yourself stated that the only possible explanation was that Paul VI was not a true pope. But anyone can make the same claim and make nonsense out of the Catholic Faith.

I accept everything believed and taught by the Catholic Church, (with the exception of):

1. I am a monophysite because Pope Leo I was not a true pope at the Council of Chalcedon.
2. I am an Arian because Pope Sylvester was not a true pope at the Council of Nicea.
3. I am a Jew because Pope Peter was not a true pope at the Council of Jerusalem.
You reject Vatican II, so logically also Vatican I, and Trent and Florence etc. etc. I have to commend you on your consistency; unfortunately that leaves you without the Catholic Church as the true Church. 
Vatican II contradicted previously defined doctrine; Catholics cannot consistently accept Vatican II and the magisterium prior to this Council.
V.O.
I'm not going to attempt to demonstrate the contradictions between Vatican II and the previous magisterium; this is after all a Tradtionalist forum; its a given.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers