Author Topic: Are there various levels of martyrdom?  (Read 1348 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 03:47:53 PM »
Also, before I forget, if you think that the Jobian theory of Satan as an instrument of God is universal, then I would like to mention, that this contradicts the fact, that God punishes only up to the 4th generation. This limit is regularly broken.

I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make.

So how can typically some pain placed into your soul by statan be so big that it breaks you? This can't be God's work as God is written never to push people beyond their breaking points.

Breaking points? You must mean 1 Corinthians 10:13 where the Apostle teaches that Christians have nothing to fear from temptations, knowing that God is able to bring them through any afflictions: There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As for possession, it is certain that the Holy Spirit does not cohabit with demons in the bodies and souls of believers (2 Cor. 6:15-16). The baptized are truly the walking temples of the living God. When a soul is possessed, it is either an unbeliever or a believer who was open to the occult by a void of grace, justly brought about by sin. The possessed can only be delivered from such affliction by the power of Christ and those who exorcise in His name.

So whilst it is true that the devil doesn't have equal power to God, but there are enough technicalities at its disposal to regenerate itself indefinitely and spread, like a deadly infection, thereby rivaling God.

You are deceived.

Nothing can rival God. Evil and Satan are merely permitted to exist so that all things work together to fulfill the eschaton. God predetermined all existence and is ever in control of it.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 05:55:44 PM »
..
The real question is, how can Catholic doctrine help the person with those demons and devices already inside him, and how can Catholic doctrine help against the regeneration and re-planting of those demons and devices into the people that may later come under the authority of such a person.


Only reading Catholic doctrine does not in itself help against the devil.  But Catholic doctrine teaches us what to believe to and how to live as a Catholic. Catholic doctrine teaches that fighting the devil requires especially grace, prayer,  help from priests and their exorcisms, other prayers, and blessings.  It also requires the use of our own free will, which Catholic doctrine teaches the devil can not control - mortal sin is freely willed by man. Catholic doctrine teaches that the devil cannot rival God, no matter what external evil God permits him to do.  "The devil made me do it" is a popular saying among some people, but it is always a lie.   Any "generational harm" that demons may inflict is not upon the souls and wills of those afflicted.  God may permit external harm and temptations (terrible things) perhaps even upon generations, but Satan has absolutely no authority over our wills. That is what Catholic doctrine teaches and you deny.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:03:26 PM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

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Offline Geremia

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 07:27:30 PM »
It seems so, according to St. Dominic, from his biography by Bl. Jordon of Saxony:
Quote
On one occasion, when they threatened to kill him, he calmly answered, "I am not worthy of the martyr's glory; as yet I haven't merited such a death." Some time later, as he neared a place in which he suspected traps had been laid for him, he started to sing and walked by fearlessly. When the heretics learned of this, they marvelled at his courage and asked him, "Aren't you afraid of death? What would you have done if we had captured you?" His only answer was, "I would have asked you not to kill me all at once, but to cut me up member by member, so as to give me a lingering martyrdom. Then, before you plucked out my eyes, I would ask you to hold before me each part you had cut from my body. After all that, you could let the rest of my body roll about in its own blood or you could kill me altogether."
 
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Offline gsas

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2019, 10:17:40 AM »
Also, before I forget, if you think that the Jobian theory of Satan as an instrument of God is universal, then I would like to mention, that this contradicts the fact, that God punishes only up to the 4th generation. This limit is regularly broken.

I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make.

So how can typically some pain placed into your soul by statan be so big that it breaks you? This can't be God's work as God is written never to push people beyond their breaking points.

Breaking points? You must mean 1 Corinthians 10:13 where the Apostle teaches that Christians have nothing to fear from temptations, knowing that God is able to bring them through any afflictions: There has no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that you may be able to bear it.

As for possession, it is certain that the Holy Spirit does not cohabit with demons in the bodies and souls of believers (2 Cor. 6:15-16). The baptized are truly the walking temples of the living God. When a soul is possessed, it is either an unbeliever or a believer who was open to the occult by a void of grace, justly brought about by sin. The possessed can only be delivered from such affliction by the power of Christ and those who exorcise in His name.

So whilst it is true that the devil doesn't have equal power to God, but there are enough technicalities at its disposal to regenerate itself indefinitely and spread, like a deadly infection, thereby rivaling God.

You are deceived.

Nothing can rival God. Evil and Satan are merely permitted to exist so that all things work together to fulfill the eschaton. God predetermined all existence and is ever in control of it.

I agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children.
 

Offline gsas

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 10:30:07 AM »
..
The real question is, how can Catholic doctrine help the person with those demons and devices already inside him, and how can Catholic doctrine help against the regeneration and re-planting of those demons and devices into the people that may later come under the authority of such a person.


Only reading Catholic doctrine does not in itself help against the devil.  But Catholic doctrine teaches us what to believe to and how to live as a Catholic. Catholic doctrine teaches that fighting the devil requires especially grace, prayer,  help from priests and their exorcisms, other prayers, and blessings.  It also requires the use of our own free will, which Catholic doctrine teaches the devil can not control - mortal sin is freely willed by man. Catholic doctrine teaches that the devil cannot rival God, no matter what external evil God permits him to do.  "The devil made me do it" is a popular saying among some people, but it is always a lie.   Any "generational harm" that demons may inflict is not upon the souls and wills of those afflicted.  God may permit external harm and temptations (terrible things) perhaps even upon generations, but Satan has absolutely no authority over our wills. That is what Catholic doctrine teaches and you deny.
Catholic doctrine is always correct, so this brings up the question of what happens to free will to end up in such affliction.  I would like to postulate, that you sign over your God given free will to the devil when you are conceived.  That is when your slavery to the devil begins, and it includes every function of your soul, including your will.  I speculate, that the Catholic doctrine considers the state of your free will after baptism or before your conception.  But when you give away your free will to the devil by getting conceived, then God is stuck in wait, because God always respects free will.  Isn't this the catch then?  You get your free will back by the Church when the Church baptizes you.  If your parents or society prohibit that, then what can God do for you?  Is my thesis wrong, that this way it is people themselves who give more power to the devil than God, especially on children?
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2019, 03:05:31 PM »
I agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline gsas

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 06:02:50 PM »
I agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.

Well I was trying to think about them.  What I wrote is the result of my logic.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2019, 01:59:09 PM »
I agree, so, what comes out is that the time period between conception and baptism is what governs everything. Especially about the question of possession of believers.  Your moment of conception is when you reject God.  Thereafter, by accepting the original sin, you effectively sign a contract of indentured slavery to the devil.  You will then be stuck like that, and all the delusions that God sends you to believe all the lies will pile in you.  You are hopeless, and stay like that, until the Church baptizes you.  Typically, this is blocked by your parents, so you remain hopeless.  Therefore, I think it is still possible that people themselves increment the power of the devil to rival God, at least in children

It is hard to believe that someone who has so little comprehension of even the basics of the catholic faith is working with "experts" on the demonic and evangelizing on behalf of the Church as you claim to do.

Well I was trying to think about them.  What I wrote is the result of my logic.

What you wrote is either the result of conscious trolling or of ignorance.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline dymphnaw

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Re: Are there various levels of martyrdom?
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2019, 12:14:46 PM »
This doesn't make a lick of sense.