Author Topic: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"  (Read 1409 times)

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2019, 03:14:53 PM »
Such is the power of grace that, in the end, it cannot fail to operate in the life of the believer what God intends it do to. As you well know, Christianity is a religion of grace, it is not a humanistic philosophy of free will with God in the background. We choose good only because God chose us first. Faith does not make us impervious to sin but if we are truly His sheep, then it makes us impervious to die in sin.

The conundrum here is that it is not really our choice to do good if "God chose us first."  The anamatronic teddy bear cannot choose to dance and sing, but when the child touches its belly, it dances and sings because the toy-maker programmed it to beforehand.  The only free will we would seem to have here is a negative freedom: the freedom to will evil.  That is hardly a freedom, if you can do no other on your own.  You have all the freedom of the inert teddy bear.  There was an Anglican catechism for children that had a rhyme that went something like:

"All the evil I do, O Lord,
it comes from me.
And all the good that I do,
it comes from Thee."


On one hand this would have to be true, if God is the author of all goodness including our own, but it seems to ruin free will.

The life of the believer is full of trials. The sheep can sin and have doubts but they can never die in sin, so the evangelical admonitions apply.

So they can apostatize and then revert.  But would the pre-apostasy faith have been a false faith, or a delusion?
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2019, 05:03:20 PM »
Opposed to the bible, obviously.  I already quoted the servant who was forgiven everything, but went to hell.

The parable you partially quoted intends to enforce mutual forgiveness among men. If they don't pardon each other's faults, there's little reason to expect any pardoning from God. Remember the petition in Our Father. Furthermore, if we are to extract definite doctrine from parables, it bears mentioning that the sinful servant was delivered to "the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due to him" which has been typically interpreted as an indirect reference to Purgatory, although that's not definitive. It is evidently possible that the sheep may experience purgation, either in this life or the next. What it doesn't seem to show is that the sheep turned into goats or the goats into sheep.

In other words, if said servant were a goat, Christ would have never known him. Never. It's not like Christ knew him and then disowned him on account of his sins. No, the Lord never knew the goat.

[13] Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away.

Precisely. Their faith is temporary, like that of Simon Magus. If they die in sin, all this demonstrates is that it's not true faith to begin with, as per the clear and plain meaning of 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:23. The faith of the elect is abiding unto the end because its author, Christ, is also its finisher or perfecter (Hebrews 12:2). The good work of faith in the hearts of the faithful, a work which is God's not men's, will be be performed and sustained by His grace until the end: Being confident of this very thing, that he which has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. (1 Philippians 1:6)
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2019, 05:13:40 PM »
The conundrum here is that it is not really our choice to do good if "God chose us first." (...) On one hand this would have to be true, if God is the author of all goodness including our own, but it seems to ruin free will.

The Catholic should have no qualms about this reality. All men are dead in their sins, a massa damnata that pollutes the world with perversion and injustice. The diagnosis of this infirmity is self-evident to anyone willing to consider the sorry state of the human race. Unless God changes the hearts of stone into hearts of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26), none can believe or choose anything spiritually good. "Free will," as it has been understood since the onslaught of Humanism in the Renaissance, is not a biblical concept.

So they can apostatize and then revert. But would the pre-apostasy faith have been a false faith, or a delusion?

Interesting question. I think both could be true in the sense that the sheep experiences trials, afflictions and dark nights of the soul. The false faith, however, will never endure even if it was able to perform exorcisms and works of magnitude, as per Matthew 7:23.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Online Michael Wilson

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2019, 07:00:39 PM »
Yes, they had faith, for example a baby that is validly Baptized, has faith (& hope and charity); that is the same for any adult that is validly Baptized or has gone to Confession. The meaning of those words then has to be, that a person that apostatizes, was the same condition as of one who never had any faith; not that they never had it.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Online Michael Wilson

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2019, 08:04:16 PM »
As for the concept of a "free will" being a Renaisance concept; here is Genesis, God speaking to Cain:
Quote
[7] If thou do well, shalt thou not receive? but if ill, shall not sin forthwith be present at the door? but the lust thereof shall be under thee, and thou shalt have dominion over it.
God tells Cain that good and evil are before him, to do either.
Deuteronomy 30. 15,19:
Quote
[15] Consider that I have set before thee this day life and good, and on the other hand death and evil: [19] I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
And many more. If man did not truly have free will to either accept or reject God's grace, then the promises of God to reward good and punish evil would be meaningless; Heaven would not be merited and neither would Hell, it would be the universe of a cruel and capricious tyrant.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2019, 10:53:46 PM »
Quote
The conundrum here is that it is not really our choice to do good if "God chose us first."

Dude you need to study congruentism.  You have Free Will and God pre destines the elect.  You have a say in the matter because God's decree is free will.  Live a good life and have Hope.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline james03

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2019, 11:11:19 PM »
Quote
The parable you partially quoted intends to enforce mutual forgiveness among men.

And what is the outcome if you don't?  Even though God forgives you everything, the Father will do the same to you, cast you out, if you don't also forgive.  This refutes OSAS.

Quote
Precisely. Their faith is temporary, like that of Simon Magus. If they die in sin, all this demonstrates is that it's not true faith to begin with,
Temporary Faith is not Faith?  LOL.


Quote
as per the clear and plain meaning of 1 John 2:19 and Matthew 7:23.
1 John 2:  The context is "the anti-Christs", which some believe refers to the gnostic heresy raging at the time.  It is not a discussion on soteriology.

Matt 7:  The goats have enough Faith to cast out demons, prophesy, and work miracles.  But Christ rejects them because they were workers of iniquity.

Quote
The faith of the elect is abiding unto the end because its author, Christ, is also its finisher or perfecter
  We weren't talking about the elect.  Yes, the elect will be saved in the end due to the Sovereign Will of God.  That is not in dispute.  The problem is your failure to distinguish those who have Faith and the elect.  They overlap, (all the elect have Faith in Jesus Christ), but there are those who have Faith that fall away due to sin.  St. Paul gives us a list of mortal sins that will cause you to lose your justification.

Hebrews:  Confidence is not assurance.  This is the Virtue of Hope. 
Quote
[11] If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. [12] Not as though I had already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended.

"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2019, 07:22:31 AM »
The Catholic should have no qualms about this reality. All men are dead in their sins, a massa damnata that pollutes the world with perversion and injustice. The diagnosis of this infirmity is self-evident to anyone willing to consider the sorry state of the human race. Unless God changes the hearts of stone into hearts of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26), none can believe or choose anything spiritually good. "Free will," as it has been understood since the onslaught of Humanism in the Renaissance, is not a biblical concept.

Well, I would never disagree, at least not conceptually, with the notion of a massa damnata.  Humankind is a wretched, wicked, and accursed species.  "Man is the cruelest animal.  At tragedies, bullfights, and crucifixions he has so far felt best on earth; and when he invented hell for himself, behold, that was his very heaven."

I am no Renaissance humanist.  But I believe in some degree of free will, though I admit it's difficult to pinpoint.  If, of our own, we can only work evil, then on what basis can we be convicted?  We would simply be evil-bots, in which case the guilt should be imputed to the programmer.  We ourselves would have no choice in the matter.  A person might as well be convicted for baldness, or having epicanthal eye folds.
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2019, 07:31:40 AM »
Dude you need to study congruentism.  You have Free Will and God pre destines the elect.  You have a say in the matter because God's decree is free will.

Free will and predestination would seem to be mutually incompatible.  But we have already discussed this on a previous thread, Free will and foreknowledge.  I still agree with the OP:

To have free will, X and ~X both have to be possible. Now if God knows I will do X, then doing ~X is only a perceived possibility, not an actual one. If it were actual, then it would be possible to change God's foreknowledge, which is absurd. But then I don't have free will, since doing ~X is not possible.

Some may try to escape this by saying "if you chose ~X, God's foreknowledge would have been different." This is a slimy non-answer. The world where you do ~X is a different world, in which case doing X would be impossible, for in that world too, you can't change what God foreknows. The foreknowledge is in place before, during, and after the decision. So any appeal to "would have" is irrelevant: it's not going to be different from what it in fact is.
 

Online Michael Wilson

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2019, 09:00:38 AM »
In God's view only "x" will happen and not ~x; because with God there is no past or future only the eternal present. But with men, at every moment they face the free choice of "x" or "~x'', God does not pre-determine their choice; how are both things true? That appears to be beyond human comprehension.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2019, 10:05:32 AM »
Quote
In God's view only "x" will happen and not ~x; because with God there is no past or future only the eternal present. But with men, at every moment they face the free choice of "x" or "~x'', God does not pre-determine their choice; how are both things true? That appears to be beyond human comprehension.

You answer it yourself:  In GOD'S VIEW, in MAN'S VIEW.

The comprehension is easy.  God is not man.  God is outside of time.  Man is inside of time.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline james03

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2019, 10:06:51 AM »
Pon,
I suspect what troubles you more is not predestination, but Free Will.  God is a loving God, so without Free Will, all would be saved.  Free Will is what you fear.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2019, 12:01:36 PM »
The comprehension is easy.  God is not man.  God is outside of time.  Man is inside of time.

I agree with you on these points except for the first, and I am agnostic as to the third.  But I do not think these facts make it comprehensible.  To say that God is outside of time is to render a word such as "predestined" meaningless.  There is no "pre-" or "beforehand" with a God who is outside of time.

If God is outside of time, then every moment is an eternal moment, and time as we perceive it is an illusion; hare krishna hare krishna shanti shanti shanti.  But if God has a will, then will requires action, and action requires time (which God is outside of).  Unless everything that happens in time happens according to God's eternal will—which does make sense, but it negates the free will of creatures.

At any rate, we are getting afield from the original topic.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2019, 03:38:58 PM »
I am no Renaissance humanist.  But I believe in some degree of free will, though I admit it's difficult to pinpoint.  If, of our own, we can only work evil, then on what basis can we be convicted?  We would simply be evil-bots, in which case the guilt should be imputed to the programmer.  We ourselves would have no choice in the matter.  A person might as well be convicted for baldness, or having epicanthal eye folds.

We can be convicted because we have a conscience that dictates what is good and what is evil. When we do evil, we know it to be so. The Christian paradigm admits of a self-conscious will but a will that is enslaved to sin. Only grace liberates man and changes his heart in order to do good and believe.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Online Michael Wilson

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Re: Eschatology: "the Passion of the Church"
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2019, 07:07:11 PM »
Man can do good without grace, for example keep the commandments for a short time; and not all the actions of sinners are sinful; however, man can't do anything to obtain their salvation i.e. "Supernaturally" good, without the aid of God's grace.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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