Author Topic: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?  (Read 4816 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2019, 02:19:49 PM »
Fact.  Worldwide the percentage of cosmologists who are women is something like 15%, maybe 17%.  In the old Protestant countries it is lower.  In the Catholic countries it is much higher, including in Spain, and it is approaching 40% in Argentina.

It should also bear mentioning that the Catholic countries have been hotbeds of Marxism and anticlericalism.
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Offline Arvinger

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2019, 03:07:52 PM »
Arvinger I think Bishop Sanborn is deeply mistaken and by a country mile. Unless you are going to dedicate your life as a single person to God you will struggle being a human with a fallen nature. That goes for men and especially for women who get a career because time is more compounded to start a family life with a definite stopping point.

Every path of life is difficult and we always struggle with fallen human nature. Marriage and family do not solve that problem and are a difficult vocation in themselves - they bring sets of problems and difficulties which unmarried people do not face. Also, it is a vocation which not everyone has.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
Let's use the example of a female nuclear scientist as that's his example. Will she crave companionship? Will she desire kids someday? Is she going to date men while trying to focus on her career?

If "yes" the odds of her staying chaste in a dating environment are slim. But let's go further.

What if she wants kids at around 30-35 after she sees the emptiness that a career brings. How many good guys will want to marry a career girl? Few if any.

Unless you're under 30 and have false romantic beliefs about life you realize how easy it is to lose your way, that you aren't as strong as you think and the lack of foresight is a day late and a dollar short for most people. And for a woman that's even worse as she has a timer  to have her own family and the ticking sound gets mighty loud.

Will this nuclear scientist who may discover she wants a family be mentally stable to raise one without feeling she's wasting her life? As much as she feels the emptiness of her job she also feels the weight of being important now that she's gone down that road. It takes a special person to walk away from that without constant regret.

Even if you don't feel called to get married today human nature gets it's way. Loneliness is a real problem and intimacy is a requirement in life. Either we are intimate with the Divine through the spirit or intimate in the flesh with people. Nature abhors a vacuum and no career will solve that.

What you wrote carries a lot of implicit assumptions which might or might not be true for specific people.

First, you seem to automatically assume that every woman has a vocation for marriage and motherhood, but that is not the case - most do, but some don't. If fact, there are some woman who are utterly unsuitable for motherhood for psychological reasons, have low sex drive (on average female sex drive is much lower than male) and do not desire sexual relationship (essential element of marriage) all that much, etc.

Second, you assume that a career will necessarily be something that she will realize "is empty" and will leave her disappointed. There are many people who use their God-given artistic/scientific/sport talents for various sorts of occupation and significantly contribute to society without being married or having a religious vocation, their occupations being far from "empty".

Third, having a scientific/sports/artistic career and being in close relationship with God are not mutually exclusive - a woman does not have to have a religious vocation or be a mother in order to have a rich spiritual life and give witness to Christ, including in her professional environment. Is it easy? No. Possible? Yes.

Fourth, imagine we are living in a Catholic country where people follow their vocations. I'm not sure what percentage of men have religious vocation, but lets say 5-10% do. Thus, 5-10% of women will necessarily remain without a husband. Sure, some of them might go to monasteries, but failure to find a husband does not in itself mean that a woman has a religious vocation - monastery should not be a place to dump those who failed to find a partner without regard to whether they have a religious vocation or not. Thus, if these women who are left out have God-given talents allowing them to make a living and has enough discipline to follow that path, all the better for them.

Sure, cases of women remaining unmarried and leading a life with professional career which pleases God will be rare and it is surely a difficult path, but then women with enough talent and dedication to have a sport/scientific/artistic career are rare as well. This is a path for tiny minority of women (majority will always have vocation for marriage and motherhood), and there is no reason it should not exist in proper Catholic social order. Thus, I think Biship Sanborn is right about that.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 03:09:44 PM by Arvinger »
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2019, 03:38:09 PM »
Arvinger you misunderstood me. No one has a calling to a job/career.

I don't care if a woman remain single, but if she is single and has not devoted her life to God she will desire intimacy. If she isn't dedicated to a life to God and she craves intimacy and if it's not put in the proper context of life she will cause harm to herself, her morality, and her modesty.

There were always circumstances where women were single, especially after war, where they had to get jobs and try to provide for her family. The same is true at any time in history where a woman couldn't find a husband for whatever reason. The difference was a woman knew she didn't have a vocation to a career. No one has a calling to a job.

Women in the work force has been decidedly negative for single-family income. Men have to work harder to make the same income if both sexes work.

To your other point that the increase in the arts/sports/scientific does not affect their relationship with God I would only ask for you to look at the world today, even with trads. Girls more involved with those things seem to get married later and have higher dissatisfaction in married life, and think of marriage early as "settling". In the Novus Ordo girls who go down that direction play in public schools, dress immodestly, hardly ever keep the faith, and grow in masculine traits.

The desire to be "successful" from a worldly perspective has done enormous damage to our minds, that includes me. To not see the rot infesting the minds of young women is something I cannot understand from your perspective so I don't know how to continue.

Strangely I've had conversations with humble women who were corporate execs, doctors, etc. and they all admitted what I knew imperfectly. They admitted how they postponed getting married, stopping have more kids, and it was only when they embraced their state in life as a mother they realized how vain they were. Many of my beliefs are shaped by such conversations.

I met a girl from my confirmation class 10 years later. I met her mother and she said she would love to talk to me. She was a marine biologist and she told me her life was just gone downhill and she doesn't know how she could have a stable relationship. I remember her crying well. She left the faith and sadly I can't think of 1 girl in my confirmation class who kept their faith.
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Offline Arvinger

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2019, 04:54:30 PM »
Arvinger you misunderstood me. No one has a calling to a job/career.
Of course, it is not a vocation, but that does not mean it is not a legitimate option for living.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
I don't care if a woman remain single, but if she is single and has not devoted her life to God she will desire intimacy. If she isn't dedicated to a life to God and she craves intimacy and if it's not put in the proper context of life she will cause harm to herself, her morality, and her modesty.
Depends what you mean by "dedicating life to God" - if you mean a religious vocation, not every woman who remains single has it. But you can live a Godly life while having a career, these are not mutually exclusive. Futhermore, one could use exactly the same argument about men who remain single and do not have a religious vocation, yet I hardly see anyone in the Trad world doing that. We are not animals, we can control our instintcs and discipline ourselves.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
There were always circumstances where women were single, especially after war, where they had to get jobs and try to provide for her family. The same is true at any time in history where a woman couldn't find a husband for whatever reason. The difference was a woman knew she didn't have a vocation to a career. No one has a calling to a job.
Agreed, I never claimed it is any sort of vocation.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
Women in the work force has been decidedly negative for single-family income. Men have to work harder to make the same income if both sexes work.
You are comparing apples and oranges now. I'm talking about tiny minority of women who have talents and gifts in areas of art, science and sports, and who can legitimately follow that if they give up on marriage. You talk about women entering the workforce en masse, often doing meaningless paper-pushing jobs - that is entirely different issue and was indeed catastrophic for the job market and wages, I fully agree. But that is not what I'm talking about. Few female artists, athletes and scientists (a tiny percentage of women who are in the workforce) who do that for living are not negative for single-family income and are a different thing than women entering workforce en masse.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
To your other point that the increase in the arts/sports/scientific does not affect their relationship with God I would only ask for you to look at the world today, even with trads. Girls more involved with those things seem to get married later and have higher dissatisfaction in married life, and think of marriage early as "settling". In the Novus Ordo girls who go down that direction play in public schools, dress immodestly, hardly ever keep the faith, and grow in masculine traits.
You misrepresent what I wrote. I said that it does not have to affect their relationship with God, if they do it in a right way, in a Catholic framework. Most of them don't, and don't even have the faith to begin with (as with majority of the Novus Ordo youth who go through the motions of being Catholic but never take Catholicism seriously and flee the Church after Confirmation - not because of involvment in sports or art, but because of lack of faith). That does not mean that it is impossible to have a career and maintain a relationship with God. I don't see a reason why a female (or male, for that matter) nuclear scientist cannot be a devout Catholic and lead a disciplined single life, as bishop Sanborn suggested.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
The desire to be "successful" from a worldly perspective has done enormous damage to our minds, that includes me. To not see the rot infesting the minds of young women is something I cannot understand from your perspective so I don't know how to continue.
Being a Catholic does not mean that one should not strive to achieve excellence in a specific field, be that art, science or sports. Great wealth of art, culture (indlucing Catholic art and culture) and scientific advances which have been made throughout history would have been impossible without that strive. Again, few have enough talent and discipline for that, which is why I emphasize I'm talking about this as a path for tiny minority of women, while majority should still be wives and mothers.

Quote from: bigbadtrad
Strangely I've had conversations with humble women who were corporate execs, doctors, etc. and they all admitted what I knew imperfectly. They admitted how they postponed getting married, stopping have more kids, and it was only when they embraced their state in life as a mother they realized how vain they were. Many of my beliefs are shaped by such conversations.
It means that these specific women made a wrong decision and chose a path which was wrong for them. Does not mean it will be wrong for others who have different circumstances, personalities, talents, etc.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 04:57:31 PM by Arvinger »
 
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Offline Arvinger

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2019, 05:17:56 PM »
I have two concerns with this argument.  First of all, in choosing a career, sportswomen (and men) only have a short career life to factor into their overall life-plan.  By early or mid-30s most are past their prime and younger, stronger, fitter and faster versions have replaced them. Consequently, they have another lifetime or more (35 years +) to plan for, so it is not the same as a woman who has chosen a profession/career, which can sustain her throughout her working life.  Of course some may not need to work, if they have been successful enough to fund the rest of their lives.  But they do have to do something with the rest of their lives...  Marriage may be one option - if they can find a suitable choice who has not been married before.  But they have certainly reduced their options in this area.
Sure, but that is a problem everyone, man or woman, faces when deciding for a career in professional sports. This type of career is short and one has to actively prepare for a new life after it ends - one has to be aware of that and make proper preparations and save enough money during the career.       

Quote from: Aeternus
Secondly, I believe Bp Sanborn and any of the traditional clergy would oppose a sports career for women on the issue of modesty alone, let alone any other potentially valid reason.  Iíve seen photos of women footballers in action shots that I would not permit a child or young man under my control to view.   And to equate Bp Sanbornís example of a woman who chooses nuclear science as a career with one who chooses a sports career, in my view, is an Olympian leap in itself.  I know he says: ďthen do whatever you want as a careerĒ, but it goes without saying that would not include anything that involves mortal sin.
But that assumes that immodesty and other mortal sins are inherent to professional sports, which they are not. In a proper Catholic order the same sports could be practiced with consideration of proper standards of modesty in dressing. Current immodesty in many sports says more about modern society and its mores than sport itself.
 

Offline queen.saints

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2019, 06:23:23 PM »

Does anyone ever wonder whether the shy, modest, retiring ideal woman being praised on this thread would last five minutes in a family kitchen?

Where have all those strong Catholic women gone, the one's you wouldn't dare mess with.  Criticise their husbands and you take your life into your hands.  But don't imagine for one minute that they bore any resemblance to the delicate flowers being idealised here.

Itís just the opposite in reality. These strong, masculine women are actually quite easy to manipulate, while a submissive, feminine woman is not.

A dominant woman thinks she is so smart and capable and can handle everything on her own, but so often she turns out to be mistaken.

A submissive woman, on the other hand, can handle any difficult situation with a simple, ďMy husband says so.Ē

And speaking of family kitchens, I know a lovely, shy, modest, retiring old lady who spends all day cooking, cleaning, and serving others while being surrounded by dominant personalities, yet all she needs to do is water her eyes and there are ten men ready to jump to her defense.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2019, 08:15:09 PM »

Does anyone ever wonder whether the shy, modest, retiring ideal woman being praised on this thread would last five minutes in a family kitchen?

Where have all those strong Catholic women gone, the one's you wouldn't dare mess with.  Criticise their husbands and you take your life into your hands.  But don't imagine for one minute that they bore any resemblance to the delicate flowers being idealised here.

Itís just the opposite in reality. These strong, masculine women are actually quite easy to manipulate, while a submissive, feminine woman is not.

A dominant woman thinks she is so smart and capable and can handle everything on her own, but so often she turns out to be mistaken.

A submissive woman, on the other hand, can handle any difficult situation with a simple, ďMy husband says so.Ē

And speaking of family kitchens, I know a lovely, shy, modest, retiring old lady who spends all day cooking, cleaning, and serving others while being surrounded by dominant personalities, yet all she needs to do is water her eyes and there are ten men ready to jump to her defense.

The strong Catholic women I remember were not masculine or dominant.  They were strong in their traditional roles.   

One way of looking at the behaviour of your lovely, shy, modest old lady friend is that she appears submissive but is in fact quite manipulative, having learned to "water her eyes" to get what she wants.  Is that the kind of feminine behaviour you advocate?
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Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2019, 08:36:19 PM »
One way of looking at the behaviour of your lovely, shy, modest old lady friend is that she appears submissive but is in fact quite manipulative, having learned to "water her eyes" to get what she wants.  Is that the kind of feminine behaviour you advocate?

Is there any other?

It's a millennia-old art of survival and social negotiation. Being the fair sex, women can't afford to assert their wills the same way men do.
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2019, 11:47:47 PM »
You are comparing apples and oranges now. I'm talking about tiny minority of women who have talents and gifts in areas of art, science and sports, and who can legitimately follow that if they give up on marriage.

And my point is they rarely, if ever, give up on marriage. They romantically believe they will feel fulfilled by a career and after repeated bad decisions they severely damage their future. My point has been the same: if they dedicated their lives to God in chastity that's one thing, but outside of that it's severely immature to think such a person will turn out fine. The experiment has been tried, it's been an abject failure. To even mention sports is not sane as reality dictates women in sports are literally a hotbed of immorality and has profound psychological implications. To be clear I'm not talking about playing tennis with friends or family, or even in a local league.

Quote
You misrepresent what I wrote. I said that it does not have to affect their relationship with God, if they do it in a right way, in a Catholic framework.

Sure and that would also be true of a plane with the engines failing: it doesn't have to crash and kill everyone, but reality is stacked against you. Correlation is not causation, but to deny correlation is an act of denying reality. Catholic chaperones aren't necessary because couples don't have to commit acts of lust, but to forsake that is a denial of history and teachings of the saints with perilous consequences.

Your argument boils done to if someone has the proclivity and means to live a career as a woman in the world and forsake marriage what's the big deal if if there is no mandatory down-side. Its' the same argument against chaperones: times have changed, they don't have to be unchaste, and they are intelligent and pious. Yet it's worse than no chaperones, it's literally having your daughter in the midst of the polished wolves who would love to destroy your purity, estranged from family life, and somehow it can work because there is no moral imperative either way.

My counter-point is I wouldn't tell anyone to ride an airliner in which you knew the engines would die mid-flight and hope he could glide to a runway safely.

Life is really a matter of odds. If I knew 70% of doctors wanted to leave the profession, have massive depression, and job dissatisfaction than you'd be crazy to do so. Wouldn't make a difference if they were male or female. The same is true recommending women to live in a world of men without the proper boundries of modesty and propriety. I don't see this is arguable. We don't have the female scientist studying at a Catholic university with nuns and priests and other young women to bolster them. Instead they are lambs to the slaughter. 

To paraphrase St. John Chrysostum a father wouldn't spend those precious years of his daughter's life to sacrifice her modesty to the world. A father walks his daughter down the isle as a symbol of passing the baton and as a representative of the purity and dignity of the family name. The idea a woman can live in the jungle and do ahistorical things and turn out alright is naive at best.

We're talking about walking into the jungle and hoping the deeper she goes it will all be fine as long as they pray their Rosary.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 09:15:20 AM by bigbadtrad »
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Offline queen.saints

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2019, 01:07:16 AM »

Does anyone ever wonder whether the shy, modest, retiring ideal woman being praised on this thread would last five minutes in a family kitchen?

Where have all those strong Catholic women gone, the one's you wouldn't dare mess with.  Criticise their husbands and you take your life into your hands.  But don't imagine for one minute that they bore any resemblance to the delicate flowers being idealised here.

Itís just the opposite in reality. These strong, masculine women are actually quite easy to manipulate, while a submissive, feminine woman is not.

A dominant woman thinks she is so smart and capable and can handle everything on her own, but so often she turns out to be mistaken.

A submissive woman, on the other hand, can handle any difficult situation with a simple, ďMy husband says so.Ē

And speaking of family kitchens, I know a lovely, shy, modest, retiring old lady who spends all day cooking, cleaning, and serving others while being surrounded by dominant personalities, yet all she needs to do is water her eyes and there are ten men ready to jump to her defense.

The strong Catholic women I remember were not masculine or dominant.  They were strong in their traditional roles.   

One way of looking at the behaviour of your lovely, shy, modest old lady friend is that she appears submissive but is in fact quite manipulative, having learned to "water her eyes" to get what she wants.  Is that the kind of feminine behaviour you advocate?

I absolutely advocate for the kind of feminine woman she is.

One way of looking at people- men and women alike- who are greatly our superior is to attribute negative motives to their good qualities so we never have to show admiration for anyone else or examine our own failings.

It works for a multitude of situations, whether we donít want to admire men for being athletic or women for being lovely.
 
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Offline queen.saints

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2019, 01:16:21 AM »
One way of looking at the behaviour of your lovely, shy, modest old lady friend is that she appears submissive but is in fact quite manipulative, having learned to "water her eyes" to get what she wants.  Is that the kind of feminine behaviour you advocate?

Is there any other?


Yes. There is a completely different way.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2019, 05:32:20 AM »

Does anyone ever wonder whether the shy, modest, retiring ideal woman being praised on this thread would last five minutes in a family kitchen?

Where have all those strong Catholic women gone, the one's you wouldn't dare mess with.  Criticise their husbands and you take your life into your hands.  But don't imagine for one minute that they bore any resemblance to the delicate flowers being idealised here.

Itís just the opposite in reality. These strong, masculine women are actually quite easy to manipulate, while a submissive, feminine woman is not.

A dominant woman thinks she is so smart and capable and can handle everything on her own, but so often she turns out to be mistaken.

A submissive woman, on the other hand, can handle any difficult situation with a simple, ďMy husband says so.Ē

And speaking of family kitchens, I know a lovely, shy, modest, retiring old lady who spends all day cooking, cleaning, and serving others while being surrounded by dominant personalities, yet all she needs to do is water her eyes and there are ten men ready to jump to her defense.

The strong Catholic women I remember were not masculine or dominant.  They were strong in their traditional roles.   

One way of looking at the behaviour of your lovely, shy, modest old lady friend is that she appears submissive but is in fact quite manipulative, having learned to "water her eyes" to get what she wants.  Is that the kind of feminine behaviour you advocate?

I absolutely advocate for the kind of feminine woman she is.

One way of looking at people- men and women alike- who are greatly our superior is to attribute negative motives to their good qualities so we never have to show admiration for anyone else or examine our own failings.

It works for a multitude of situations, whether we donít want to admire men for being athletic or women for being lovely.

Quote
I absolutely advocate for the kind of feminine woman she is.

Obviously.  And I'm sure your friend is as lovely as you say she is.

But what you see is not always what you get.  Have you never met a woman who appeared kind, gentle and sweet in all her outward behaviours but who actually turned out to be malicious and manipulative underneath it all?  Do you admit that the more submissive, shy, modest and retiring such a woman seems, the more likely it is that she will keep her true nature concealed?

Quote
One way of looking at people- men and women alike- who are greatly our superior is to attribute negative motives to their good qualities so we never have to show admiration for anyone else or examine our own failings.

Yes, just like you implied that the strong Catholic women I was referring to were "masculine" and "dominant".

Quote
It works for a multitude of situations, whether we donít want to admire men for being athletic or women for being lovely.

I'll admit that the strong Catholic women I used to admire would most likely not have attended junior's football match, or expected their daughters to.  And neither would their husbands.  That doesn't mean they wouldn't have encouraged boys to play games.  They did.  It's just that they saw no need to turn the occasion into an admiration fest for junior.
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Offline Graham

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2019, 08:50:01 AM »
I'm not sure what is the point of this digression about "pleasant and submissive" vs "tough, no nonsense" styles of traditional catholic women, since it seems to me that neither of them play competitive sports.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2019, 11:24:56 AM »
I'm not sure what is the point of this digression about "pleasant and submissive" vs "tough, no nonsense" styles of traditional catholic women, since it seems to me that neither of them play competitive sports.

The "tough, no nonsense" description is yours.  Why have you put it in quotation marks? 

One point of this digression is to suggest that what you think you see is not always what you get. 
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: What's Worse? Women Or Transgenders In Sport?
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2019, 11:58:21 AM »

I'm not sure what is the point of this digression about "pleasant and submissive" vs "tough, no nonsense" styles of traditional catholic women, since it seems to me that neither of them play competitive sports.

An attempt to derail the discussion. I think, however, it fed very nicely into the discussion instead.