Author Topic: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages  (Read 4719 times)

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #210 on: November 21, 2019, 08:39:56 PM »
The new mass is not the mass, it's an unlawful substitute, and cannot be the object of any obligation - except the obligation to avoid it.

Says you.  Well there, you've said it.  You have condemned my parents and millions of Catholics to hell because they fulfilled their Sunday obligation with the NO Mass.  Who to heck do you think you are anyway.  You are not God.

"When Archbishop Lefebvre was absent on a Sunday, the seminarians would go and assist at Mass together at the Bernadine convent of La Maigrauge where an old monk celebrated the New Mass in Latin."  "Make every effort to have the Mass of St. Pius V, but if it is impossible to find one within forty kilometers and if there is a pious priest who says the New Mass in as traditional a way as possible, it is good for you to assist at it to fulfill your Sunday obligation."  These two quotes from an SSPX web site plus the rumour that Archbishop Lefebvre said the new Mass for the first two years seem to contradict you Nazianzen, even though Lefebvre flip flopped at a later date.

Most NO Masses are valid and licit.  I can't say the same for SSPX masses.  The canonical situation of the SSPX is unresolved and at an impasse.  "The PCED also explained that the Masses celebrated by SSPX priests are valid but illicit."

illicit
adjective
forbidden by law, rules, or custom

At this point I wouldn't attend an SSPX mass even if I lived next door to an SSPX chapel.  And even if I didn't have access to the diocesan Latin Mass and had to attend a reverent NO Mass.

Xavier I'm thinking you should have listened to Heinrich's suggestion a few months ago about considering an FSSP seminary.  It's not too late.

That's pretty extreme, Mike.
In spite of all it's shortcoming the SSPX seems to be like the only organization churning out hardy priests in large numbers. Sure, the other TLM organizations, and even the New Rite, have good priests, but they are many times the exception. My experience with the FSSP is almost nothing, but everywhere else in the Church outside of the SSPX it's common to find the faithful subjected to self-centered softness coming from the pulpit.
It's not for us to decide whether a Mass is valid/licit unless something obvious happens that clearly invalidates it. Don't overthink the situation. To shun the SSPX over them not recommending the faithful to assist at the New Mass seems like a rash judgement. We should have the charity to always assume our fellow Catholics have the salvation of souls as their priority. While I don't agree with the SSPX on this particular issue, they do not appear to have bad motivations, and in fact, only warn people away from the New Mass because they believe it will do damage to one's faith.

The problem Dellery is not that the SSPX does not recommend the faithful to assist at the New Mass.  No traditional priest does; not FSSP, ICRSS or diocesan priests that offer the Latin Mass.  The problem is that the SSPX condemns Catholics for attending the NO Mass.

It's nice to see that the FSSP is growing.

Annual Census Shows Prolific Growth at FSSP Parishes
https://fssp.com/annual-census-shows-prolific-growth-at-fssp-parishes/

Besides this good news above some FSSP priests are becoming diocesan priests to spread the Latin Mass, like the two priests that offer the Latin Mass in our area.  This past Sunday one of our priests said that we'll have good news for our Latin Mass community coming from our bishop in January.  He said that he couldn't tell us what it was yet but it will mean the growth of our Latin Mass community in our diocese.

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Offline mikemac

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #211 on: November 21, 2019, 08:54:25 PM »

The problem Dellery is not that the SSPX does not recommend the faithful to assist at the New Mass.  No traditional priest does; not FSSP, ICRSS or diocesan priests that offer the Latin Mass.  The problem is that the SSPX condemns Catholics for attending the NO Mass.

It's nice to see that the FSSP is growing.

Annual Census Shows Prolific Growth at FSSP Parishes
https://fssp.com/annual-census-shows-prolific-growth-at-fssp-parishes/

Besides this good news above some FSSP priests are becoming diocesan priests to spread the Latin Mass, like the two priests that offer the Latin Mass in our area.  This past Sunday one of our priests said that we'll have good news for our Latin Mass community coming from our bishop in January.  He said that he couldn't tell us what it was yet but it will mean the growth of our Latin Mass community in our diocese.

I have never seen them issue any kind of condemnation against Catholics who assist at the New Mass. Strongly worded criticisms and warnings against it, yes, but never a rebuke or condemnation of somebody assisting it.

They do by saying to avoid the NO Mass at all cost and by saying to stay home if there is no TLM within driving distance.  As Catholics we risk hell if we do not fulfill our Sunday obligation.  When an SSPXer says "The new mass is not the mass" he is condemning my parents plus millions of Catholics to hell that fulfilled their Sunday obligation by attending the NO Mass, even though they had no other choice at the time.  The effeminate SSPX priest in the video in post # 186 is saying the same.

Do you realize that Rome will never ever regularize the SSPX while they hold this heretical belief?  And I don't blame them.  Rome realizes that the SSPX is saying that millions of Catholics that fulfilled their Sunday obligation by participating in the NO Mass are either in hell or on their way there.  Role reversal, possibly?
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Nazianzen

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #212 on: November 21, 2019, 08:57:35 PM »
Your smugness is not helpful.

It wasn't smugness, it was an assumptive comment aimed at making things more real.  He's saying that he is only upset because he thinks the SSPX is condemning others; I'm pretending that I believe him, and thereby holding him to his claim.

So you're right to detect (what is manifest) that I am not speaking sincerely, but wrong to call it smugness.  It's hypocrisy-busting, and it does no harm as long as the other party is being honest.  It annoys the hell out of fakes, however.

In the Immaculate,
Naz.
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #213 on: November 21, 2019, 09:07:28 PM »
 

Offline Nazianzen

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2019, 09:17:06 PM »
The problem is that the SSPX condemns Catholics for attending the NO Mass.

Ah, so this is your understanding?  Well, it's entirely false, completely baseless, and you need not worry any more.

The SSPX condemns nobody, especially not Catholics who attend the New Mass.

Isn't it excellent that was all a misunderstanding and you can now apologise for saying those things that you obviously didn't mean, because they were, we now know, based upon a misunderstanding?

In the Immaculate,
Nazianzen.

You are contradicting yourself again.

The new mass is not the mass, it's an unlawful substitute, and cannot be the object of any obligation - except the obligation to avoid it.

Say what you think, champ, instead of merely characterising my own position.

You sound like you cannot distinguish between the expression of an objective obligation and a condemnation of a person.

Is that right?  Do you claim that you cannot tell the difference between the statement of a principle and an accusation of sin?

Come on, out with it.  Let's hear you say it, instead of this cat and mouse game where it's only implied within an accusation of "contradicting myself."

Let your speech be yes, yes, no, no.

In the Immaculate,
Nazianzen.
 

Offline Nazianzen

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #215 on: November 21, 2019, 09:24:05 PM »
The effeminate SSPX priest in the video in post # 186 is saying the same.

He isn't effeminate, he's a tenor.

I've met him, actually, in LA, and he's definitely not effeminate.

In the Immaculate,
Naz.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #216 on: November 22, 2019, 05:59:32 AM »
Who promulgated the NOM? The Pope with his full apostolic authority as supreme pastor of all Christians. For more than 50 years now the NOM has been the normative rite of the Latin Church and the rite that the vicar of Christ uses everyday to celebrate mass. Let that sink in.

This is the point you keep making, on this thread and elsewhere, over and over again.

That the NOM was promulgated by a true Pope, that Vatican II comes from the Church, and therefore the Catholic Church has defected.

Your arguments come to this one conclusion in the end - that the Catholic Church has failed. 

This is the stick you use to beat Trads with.
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Offline dellery

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #217 on: November 22, 2019, 06:29:35 AM »
Who promulgated the NOM? The Pope with his full apostolic authority as supreme pastor of all Christians. For more than 50 years now the NOM has been the normative rite of the Latin Church and the rite that the vicar of Christ uses everyday to celebrate mass. Let that sink in.

This is the point you keep making, on this thread and elsewhere, over and over again.

That the NOM was promulgated by a true Pope, that Vatican II comes from the Church, and therefore the Catholic Church has defected.

Your arguments come to this one conclusion in the end - that the Catholic Church has failed. 

This is the stick you use to beat Trads with.

Use him like a Leftist to create contrast.
Vetus' nonsense, from attacking the Church, to his fascination with Islamic "scholars", to claiming that Satan and God are on the same team, discredits him.
The best is when he disagrees with somebody, oblivious to the fact that his trolling pollutes all his other arguments by association, and unintentionally gives weight to their argument just by disagreeing with them.
Use the other trolls the same way, and remember they're never convincing and they only piss people off.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #218 on: November 22, 2019, 04:01:36 PM »
It would be the end of the matter if the fact were clear, but the fact is not clear.  Both the status of the man promulgating, and the mode of promulgation, have been questioned by serious and diligent people.

The questioning by serious and diligent people is absolutely trumped by the fact that the mass was promulgated officially by the Church with the full apostolic authority of Paul VI and that the rite has been accepted by the Latin Church as a whole as her expression of faith for more than five decades now. It is impossible for a heretical or defective rite to be officially promulgated by the Church and accepted by her as her lex orandi.

Our allegation isn't essentially what the GIRM says TODAY, it's that in its original form it said that the New Mass is not propitiatory.

Awkward's point did not specify any time frame. In fact, the context of the conversation was about the NOM as it is today. It was a blanket statement about the GIRM that we often hear in trad circles. I'll quote it again: "The General Instruction on the Roman Missal gives only three ends of the Mass, omitting, of course, the propitiatory end." This is, and remains, objectively false information that needs to be corrected.

Furthermore, even if the GIRM omitted the propitiatory end of the mass, the validity and catholicity of the rite do not depend on it. The GIRM is just an instruction manual. It depends on the Church's promulgation and ratification of said rite and her use of it as her normative lex orandi. And that is what has happened.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 04:07:14 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #219 on: November 22, 2019, 04:05:41 PM »
That the NOM was promulgated by a true Pope

Yes.

Quote
that Vatican II comes from the Church

Obviously so. It is an indisputable historical fact.

Quote
and therefore the Catholic Church has defected.

No.

What has probably defected is traditional Catholicism. Or the traditional (medieval-tridentine) understanding of Catholicism. The Church just moved on.

DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #220 on: November 22, 2019, 05:01:20 PM »
What has probably defected is traditional Catholicism. Or the traditional (medieval-tridentine) understanding of Catholicism. The Church just moved on.

Nope. The Church cannot contradict itself on Faith and Morality. It can't just "move on" from Chalcedonian Christology because Arianism is more "scientifically plausible."
"I go to seek a Great Perhaps."
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #221 on: November 22, 2019, 05:25:38 PM »
Our friend Vetus Ordo believes in the Temporary Deposit of Faith.
 ;)
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #222 on: November 22, 2019, 05:53:30 PM »
That the NOM was promulgated by a true Pope

Yes.

No.  The NOM isn't Catholic and neither were the men who concocted it.

Quote
Quote
that Vatican II comes from the Church

Obviously so. It is an indisputable historical fact.

Obviously not.  A non-Catholic rite concocted by non-Catholics cannot come from the Church.

Quote
Quote
and therefore the Catholic Church has defected.

No.

What has probably defected is traditional Catholicism. Or the traditional (medieval-tridentine) understanding of Catholicism. The Church just moved on.

Traditional Catholicism IS Catholicism.  The Church has not moved on.  The Church has been occupied.

The GIRM is the manual for the celebration of the Eucharist by the People of God with the priest presiding.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #223 on: November 22, 2019, 09:33:12 PM »

Traditional Catholicism IS Catholicism.  The Church has not moved on.  The Church has been occupied.


I wish people would begin to understand this.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Day of Reparation for Amazon Synod outrages
« Reply #224 on: November 23, 2019, 02:33:47 PM »
No. The NOM isn't Catholic and neither were the men who concocted it.

A mere assertion that flies in the face of reality. The NOM was officially promulgated by Paul VI with his full apostolic authority. It has been accepted by the Church as her normative lex orandi for the past 50 years.

Traditional Catholicism IS Catholicism.  The Church has not moved on.  The Church has been occupied.

Rome disagrees. And without Rome, there's no traditional Catholicism to speak of, unless you adopt an Eastern Orthodox or Protestant model of ecclesiology.

The GIRM is the manual for the celebration of the Eucharist by the People of God with the priest presiding.

The fact that you're unwilling to correct the false information that you spread about the GIRM speaks volumes.
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