Author Topic: No more forgiveness left from heaven  (Read 624 times)

Offline Chestertonian

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2019, 11:47:28 PM »
you can really drive yourself insane with this stuff.  like gardener said this type of thinking can lead you down some dark paths.  I know for awhile I was having these obsessive thoughts about how much i resented God for creating me to be damned, or creating me with such a small shot at salvation that I was sure to mess up.. I've always struggled with anger and resentment at my parents for bringing me into the world I didn't ask to be born.

none of these thought patterns had the potential to lead anywhere.  I can't undo my existence... suicide doesn't even promise that.  your soul continues to exist... and things will only get worse for the soul after that.  no amount of wishing my life out of existence could make it so.  sometimes i would wonder what it would be like if my mom could have had prenatal testing done to rule out the genetic disorder I have.   again, that's not a road you want to go down

existence here on earth can seem miserable sometimes it seems like God wants it to be that way.. he doesn't promise earthly happiness so... Perhaps this life is just a long death march and the only sweetness is in the next life.  I confess that this is not very consoling to me

my priest has told me to embrace simplicity as much as i can and to cultivate a very simple childlike faith in jesus christ and a childlike relationship with our Lady.  he said that when other people show me kindness like my sons or my wife to treasure it as if it came from God and to try to let God show me His goodness through my family, my nurses etc.  This helps because my family is generally supportive and my caregivers are pretty great overall.  Also I try to keep my thoughts focused on the present moment which I'm still trying to work on but overall it does help.  I can't really "work" the way most people do but I think about when monks do their chores and how they offer up their simple tasks to God... only doing what God asks of them in the moment... Finding productive ways to pass the time is a challenge but much better than sitting around wondering if God thinks I'm better off dead

 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2019, 03:47:53 PM »
Loved Ches' post.

Earlier I confirmed TRM's recollection of having heard in audio sermons the concept of "limited number of mortal sins." 

Here is something very important for all of us to remember.  (Even though I do not believe I suffer from scrupulosity, I do -- like Ches -- suffer from a tendency to discouragement, which in turn is the Devil's playground for despair.  Can be a short step from one to the other.)  Therefore, I was very troubled to hear this concept repeated in traditionalist sermons.

Know how the Church thinks with regard to doctrine and dogma:  The Doctors of the Church (which include Liguori AND deSales) are not united in this particular matter. And what does the Church say with regard to the opinions of the Doctors?  That their writings are considered dogma when in agreement, but not necessarily when they do not agree. The formation of dogma depends on more than one factor (not just what the Doctors say), but in the positive sense, when the Doctors all agree on a principle, that principle is accepted as foundational.  Practically speaking, then, the Church would never issue a dogma that agrees only with Liguori's and Augustine's views about a particular matter, such as "the numbering of sins."

As I have said before (repeating the Church's view of this, not my view), the Church says little about End Times because she hesitates to dogmatize what she cannot know for certain.  Dogma about End Times tends to be broad, and in any case the particulars would matter much less than the general for all of us.

One example is The General Judgment.  Surprisingly, Liguori is softer on this than some other theologians are.  Repeatedly, I have heard that the sins of the entire human population, down to the tiniest sin, will be revealed "because that's a matter of justice" (and truth).  However, apparently Liguori believes that the sins of those determined to be among the Blessed at that moment ("the Elect") will be shielded from view, and only the sins of the Damned will come into view.  This is just one of many areas of contradiction among theologians, doctors, saints, mystics.  Such contradictions are not worth dwelling on, since we have no prior knowledge, and even if we did, it's not the knowledge that will get us to Heaven.

I really think that what Alphonse Liguori is talking about is presumption.  Remember that presumption tempts us to commit "just one more sin"  "because"  God in his infinite mercy will "have to" forgive us.  No he won't have to.  He never has had to, nor will he ever in the future "have to."  I think that's really the best interpretation of Liguori.  We need to make sure that we never presume upon God's mercy, ever.  We simply never merit mercy and never merit grace of any kind.  The Passion was a free gift, and the mercy that flows from that is always a free gift.

I love the words about simplicity that Ches shares as the advice of his priest.  Simplicity is the cousin to Humility.  "God, have mercy on me, a sinner" is sufficient to be forgiven.  That is the opposite of presumption or "numberless" sinfulness.

If we stay faithful to the sacraments, which will help us avoid mortal sin in the first place, God will see our sincere efforts.  It doesn't fit with Catholic theology that an arbitrary "last" sin will keep the sincere penitent from God's mercy, as long as we do not presume.  Such a "surprise!" moment is not in keeping with infinite mercy for the humble of heart.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2019, 05:41:56 PM »
Even if there is a limit, you don't know it.  I don't think there is.  Just review Dutch Schultz.  Murdered a bunch of people.  Committed fornication.  Stole.  Serial adulterer.  On his death bed he calls for the priest and is baptized.  If he doesn't convince you of God's mercy, I don't know what to tell you.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2019, 11:10:47 PM »
This thread reminds me of this quote from the page on purgatory from the Catholic encyclopedia.

Quote
How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2019, 12:19:40 AM »
And as for suicide, such as for example what St John witnessed, there are a few sins that the Bible comments on as better not to be born for.  This may be interpreted as the Biblical imperative to commit suicide under these conditions.  Speculatively, this may be a necessity to save your soul in these cases, I would guess.

This does not jive with any sensus Catholicus. 

Suicide is never an option, nor is it permitted.  To say otherwise is very dangerous.
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

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Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 
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Offline gsas

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 04:01:48 PM »
And as for suicide, such as for example what St John witnessed, there are a few sins that the Bible comments on as better not to be born for.  This may be interpreted as the Biblical imperative to commit suicide under these conditions.  Speculatively, this may be a necessity to save your soul in these cases, I would guess.

This does not jive with any sensus Catholicus. 

Suicide is never an option, nor is it permitted.  To say otherwise is very dangerous.

I admit I don't have too much knowledge in that area, but I would imagine that it is used in order to avoid giving time to the devil so that the devil can't enter the victim's soul. I think that is why most Nazis committed suicide too.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: No more forgiveness left from heaven
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 05:52:28 PM »
And as for suicide, such as for example what St John witnessed, there are a few sins that the Bible comments on as better not to be born for.  This may be interpreted as the Biblical imperative to commit suicide under these conditions.  Speculatively, this may be a necessity to save your soul in these cases, I would guess.

This does not jive with any sensus Catholicus. 

Suicide is never an option, nor is it permitted.  To say otherwise is very dangerous.

I admit I don't have too much knowledge in that area, but I would imagine that it is used in order to avoid giving time to the devil so that the devil can't enter the victim's soul. I think that is why most Nazis committed suicide too.

Suicide is a mortal sin, although there can be extenuating circumstances.

The tradition of suicide among Nazi officials had nothing to do with Catholicism. It was more akin to the old pagan weltanschauung of having an honorable death.
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