Author Topic: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..  (Read 403 times)

Offline percival

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Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« on: October 31, 2019, 07:23:47 PM »
Sorry for the long post in advance - Dear people of SD, I'm a 19 year old male, new here and this is my first real post, bar some political nonsense I posted elsewhere while browsing through threads and being too lazy to put in decent responses to the good ones I saw. But I'm afraid I've left this up in the air until quite late - I have this question, and have let it run far in my life.

I'll get right to it... I am going to have overbite correction surgery tomorrow, for 90% visual reasons, even though the orthodontist had the procedure funded as something to be written off for medical reasons, I mostly lied to get this, too, so what I will be having is severely invasive plastic surgery. Now.. the severity and danger of this operation purely from a medical standpoint is not as bad as what some users here have been through surely, and fairly routine. But the stunted "investment" of time and suffering, the testing of my boundaries and the general implications are far broader I find, and I have to have shared with me a Christian standpoint...

This is an extremely troublesome thing in retrospect, and even to look forward to... I am endangering myself physically, and thus asking for God's interference without good reason, and not even for no real reason, but for ones of vainglory, whereas the latter would be bad enough. Here is the body which I've been granted as a to be soldier of the Divine, and yet I've tortured it with vanity time and time again. I've earnestly pondered with myself several times, and always come to the conclusion, no. I mustn't. And still I push on with this. How could I ever defend that..

I have felt this way from pretty much the start of the several years back when this trajectory started, and always pushed off the concern. I am the worst of all sinners, and I am not kidding or trying to be overly humble about that, it is true, but at least I can say I never planned on sin, for I have come by knowledge of the severity of my sins before I had come by the knowledge of how even to confess; meaning I've not joined the Church. I would always echo the monicker "Better to die than to sin..." in my head, for if I did sin, I would only fall, and that is bad enough... ugly enough... you'll all know. Now I can no longer say this. Now I am guilty of conspiracy against my own soul.

I am set to go - tomorrow. If even I need to ask, how severe is my situation? I cannot go back on the surgery which is to be unless I must, of course - and yet I truly cannot unlearn what I have learned. The last thing I want, after all this I've shared with you, is to delude myself I am dealing with something less than it is... nor to risk all so gravely.
I could muster the absolute guts to ask you to pray for me, so I will... but still - I appeal to you, what would you do? What are your thoughts even on the topic, really?
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2019, 07:44:13 PM »
I would not go through with the surgery; but then again, I would never have planned a surgery that wasn't necessary. If you feel like you have to go through with it, say an act of perfect Contrition, and pray to Our Lady that she get you through the operation safely; then go and start taking instructions to join the Church.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2019, 01:50:23 AM »
There is not remotely enough information to provide anything but specific advice.  If you think you are in a state of sin then pray to Jesus for forgiveness and make Acts of Love all the way up until you are knocked out.  After your surgery recovery go to confession if you believe anything you've done related to this is sinful.

Going forward, avoid doctors unless you really are in a bad state.  Western medicine is great for fixing acute problems like gunshot wounds, broken limbs and stabbings.  It is beyond awful at doing anything positive for chronic problems.  And much of the Western medicine, like antibiotics, or just regular modern Western diet, will cause you disastrous chronic problems (such as I suffer from due to antibiotics [which I now only would take if in grave risk]).  As for elective surgery, I would only consider it if there was something excessively wrong.

We all make mistakes and get ourselves into baffling situations that were never intended.  It's a part of how complex life is.  This will give you wisdom to help avoid the trails which lead into hidden troubles.

 :pray2:
 

Offline Sempronius

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2019, 01:52:26 AM »
Men doing plastic surgury? Slowly we are slipping into the effeminate lifestyle. Its so perverse
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2019, 06:06:35 AM »

Fr Riperger does a YT video on this. He says once a procedure does not alter the appearance so much that you become almost unrecognisable it would seem to be fine.
An overbite especially a lower one is quite prominent visually so I can understand you wanting to get something done now especially as you are so young.
I'm no expert but there are a lot of factors to consider before saying its a mortal sin and only a good sound priest will tell you.

Are you going into debt to pay for this, you say you are getting it covered by lying about it being a medical issue, hmmm90% exaggerated 10% true but it could be more 90% true as we get older.  Say for instance it could interfere with good dental health or fitting dentures etc.

How severe is the operation.  What is the recovery time?  Are you going to extraordinary lengths to do this?

How severe is the overbite? Would you notice it from across a room (Freddie mercury)? If yes then I see no harm in fixing it at 19 when you have a future employment to consider ( this is a very superficial world) and you maybe looking for a future wife.

My daughter has braces and it has altered her mouth shape considerably , is that a sin......I would say no.



 
 

Offline percival

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2019, 07:20:21 AM »
Quite severe, but not to a point where functionality is affected.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2019, 04:33:17 PM »

Fr Riperger does a YT video on this. He says once a procedure does not alter the appearance so much that you become almost unrecognisable it would seem to be fine.
An overbite especially a lower one is quite prominent visually so I can understand you wanting to get something done now especially as you are so young.
I'm no expert but there are a lot of factors to consider before saying its a mortal sin and only a good sound priest will tell you.

Are you going into debt to pay for this, you say you are getting it covered by lying about it being a medical issue, hmmm90% exaggerated 10% true but it could be more 90% true as we get older.  Say for instance it could interfere with good dental health or fitting dentures etc.

How severe is the operation.  What is the recovery time?  Are you going to extraordinary lengths to do this?

How severe is the overbite? Would you notice it from across a room (Freddie mercury)? If yes then I see no harm in fixing it at 19 when you have a future employment to consider ( this is a very superficial world) and you maybe looking for a future wife.

My daughter has braces and it has altered her mouth shape considerably , is that a sin......I would say no.



 

What if you’re born without a face and the procedure makes one unrecognisable? Mortal sin? In what? Where’s the lack of love for God and neighbour? Where’s the hatred? Where’s the delighting in evil? What commandment is being transgressed in spirit? This thread is in its motivation rigoristic, legalistic and dumb, another gift of the Scholastics and their pagan philosophy to the West.

 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2019, 07:02:50 AM »
What if you’re born without a face and the procedure makes one unrecognisable? Mortal sin? In what? Where’s the lack of love for God and neighbour? Where’s the hatred? Where’s the delighting in evil? What commandment is being transgressed in spirit? This thread is in its motivation rigoristic, legalistic and dumb, another gift of the Scholastics and their pagan philosophy to the West.
I don't affirm the natural law theory either, but I think the 'recognizability' would be with respect to the face's Platonic form, not to the face in question.
Natural law theory posits that there is a Platonic form out there which dictate the features that the face is supposed to have and in which proportions the features should be had. If your face lacks these features and these ratios then it's called 'ugly' and 'evil', and there's nothing wrong with you getting surgery to correct the ugliness. What's wrong is to start with a good face and then get surgery which takes away from its natural beauty, as is the case with tattoos and body piercings and stuff (especially the really extreme ones, like if you have horns sewn into your skull and stuff).
In the case you mentioned, where you start off faceless and you receive a face through surgery, there is no sin. Because God is not the cause of your facelessness (facelessness has no ontological status). Your face has evil in it, and you are getting surgery only to rid it of the evil by making it look good.
But in the latter case, there is a lack of love for God. Because, on the Augustinian picture, God is Beauty, and God is the Platonic form, and God is the Platonic demiurge who gives faces their form. To deliberately bring your face out of conformity with its form is a sin against Beauty/a sin against God. At the very least it's a sin of pride, because you're seeking to impose your own pseudo-order on something rather than accept the order that God already imposed upon it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 07:27:23 AM by Daniel »
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2019, 07:11:09 AM »
Quite severe, but not to a point where functionality is affected.
Then there doesn't seem to be a problem with having the surgery done, since it serves a useful purpose.
You still need to convert and get yourself straightened out spiritually.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2019, 08:09:45 AM »
With an overbite or underbite, functionality is most certainly going to suffer effect, along with other things in a cascading manner. Whether one realizes that effect due to familiarity with it over time is another thing entirely.

Personally, it sounds like a surgery which is needed and you’re focused on the ancillary cosmetic benefits without grasping the necessity of the “10%” which helps function.

You’re young, so this might not be apparent. But as you age these things will have worse and worse effects if not dealt with now.

https://www.orthodonticslimited.com/teeth/ignoring-overbite-can-lead-slippery-slope/
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Offline gsas

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2019, 02:44:25 AM »
Plastic surgery is never a sin mortal or other.  Plastic surgery frequently corrects what the devil has destroyed.  Dangerous though because it itself can be attacked and it better doesn't go wrong.
 

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2019, 05:37:07 AM »
How did everything go?

If the surgery involved antibiotics be sure to take probiotics (natural yogurt with live cultures, or just probiotic pills).
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2019, 06:48:05 AM »
 I struggle with being overly harsh with myself often, and just by the tone of your post I can tell you make the same mistake. Even if God didn't want you to have this surgery, He certainly wouldn't manifest it to your conscience in such a severe, tortured, and excruciating manner. That's more likely the devil driving you to self-loathing and making you lose your trust in God's mercy, and depriving you of any filial love for Him. We call God our Father and He understands our weakness. Does/would your natural father speak to you about this in such a harsh way? God is more understanding of our weakness that any natural father. If you have gone through with this surgery He certainly doesn't want you to feel guilty or torn up about it. It's a shame, because He wants us to be happy and to give thanks for His gifts. Why not see this surgery as a gift and give thanks for it? In the past I've not been able to buy clothes without beating myself up for being vain, but then I realised I was just depriving myself of the joy and gratitude God wants me to have whenever I receive anything good from Him. Some saints were born handsome and deliberately mutilated themselves to avoid vanity and unwanted attention. Do we have to follow their example? Not necessarily. God calls us in different ways, and gives us different graces, and manifests His virtues through us differently. Some people God might ask to make themselves less attractive, but there's others that God wants to put effort in in making themselves attractive so they can more easily influence others through Him. Look up Gabrielle Bosis on the "Mystics of the Church" blog; Jesus asked her to practice making herself attractive to others. You see God asks different things of each of us. It's false to imagine that sanctity always means beating yourself up and putting yourself down; sometimes it's more humble to receive a dignity, a gift, or a position.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2019, 07:01:44 AM »
But in the latter case, there is a lack of love for God. Because, on the Augustinian picture, God is Beauty, and God is the Platonic form, and God is the Platonic demiurge who gives faces their form. To deliberately bring your face out of conformity with its form is a sin against Beauty/a sin against God. At the very least it's a sin of pride, because you're seeking to impose your own pseudo-order on something rather than accept the order that God already imposed upon it.

But to be honest, Daniel, we don't know what the Platonic form of our own bodies actually is. We'll have to wait for the Resurrection to see that. As it stands, all of us have undergone genetic, environmental, nutritional, etc. defects that have made us less than our truly natural selves. If someone has a crooked nose or jaw, that's more likely some defect that occurred in the womb than what God generally intended. I imagine our resurrected bodies will contain our own unique genetic codes, but without any errors or gaps which may have accumulated over centuries of inheritance, and without any deformities we may have accumulated over our lives.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: Plastic surgery and mortal sin, plastic surgery IN mortal sin..
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 09:38:17 AM »

Fr Riperger does a YT video on this. He says once a procedure does not alter the appearance so much that you become almost unrecognisable it would seem to be fine.
An overbite especially a lower one is quite prominent visually so I can understand you wanting to get something done now especially as you are so young.
I'm no expert but there are a lot of factors to consider before saying its a mortal sin and only a good sound priest will tell you.

Are you going into debt to pay for this, you say you are getting it covered by lying about it being a medical issue, hmmm90% exaggerated 10% true but it could be more 90% true as we get older.  Say for instance it could interfere with good dental health or fitting dentures etc.

How severe is the operation.  What is the recovery time?  Are you going to extraordinary lengths to do this?

How severe is the overbite? Would you notice it from across a room (Freddie mercury)? If yes then I see no harm in fixing it at 19 when you have a future employment to consider ( this is a very superficial world) and you maybe looking for a future wife.

My daughter has braces and it has altered her mouth shape considerably , is that a sin......I would say no.



 

What if you’re born without a face and the procedure makes one unrecognisable? Mortal sin? In what? Where’s the lack of love for God and neighbour? Where’s the hatred? Where’s the delighting in evil? What commandment is being transgressed in spirit? This thread is in its motivation rigoristic, legalistic and dumb, another gift of the Scholastics and their pagan philosophy to the West.

This is a very simple answer. The exact terminology that Fr. Ripperger uses says that it is lawful to use plastic surgery and make-up to "restore nature." So, if you have no face you may get a face to restore the natural order. You may use make-up to cover scars to restore nature. Even though these things change your appearance, it is lawful. These days women do so much crazy shadowing/highlighting/hiding/face taping/etc that they are literally unrecognizable after putting on make-up. It is deceptive, that is why it is sinful.