Author Topic: Prayers from hell and other places?  (Read 532 times)

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2019, 02:32:46 PM »
It works something like this:


Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2019, 02:40:59 PM »
Quote
Wow, so 98 % of children are destined to go to hell automatically, pre-arranged at birth, because every country has Church membership down to 2 % these days.

Narrow is the way to salvation, and few enter it.  Though I think 2% is low.

But yeah, when the Church falls and people wander off, they end in hell.  This is why the revolution is serious and why abortion is so evil.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

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Offline gsas

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2019, 02:46:18 PM »
Quote
Wow, so 98 % of children are destined to go to hell automatically, pre-arranged at birth, because every country has Church membership down to 2 % these days.

Narrow is the way to salvation, and few enter it.  Though I think 2% is low.

But yeah, when the Church falls and people wander off, they end in hell.  This is why the revolution is serious and why abortion is so evil.

Even worse, evangelicals say (maybe they are even right) that the Holy Spirit will do very little if anything to protect unbabtized children.  So if there is a predatorial adult, even one, that is enough to doom all the children with 98 % certainty.
 

Offline gsas

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2019, 02:53:15 PM »
The damned do not pray, but curse.

Where in scripture are you seeing the other question? Context and actual phrasing would help.

The departed can pray if in purgatory or heaven, but not hell.

The rich man in Luke 16 prays to Abraham from hell. Perhaps hell is different after the ascension.
That is a parable, one the Fathers say can never happen and was used strictly for the purpose of the lesson - although for a time, some of the Fathers speculated the rich man was in purgatory rather then hell, but they themselves soon found that they could not make sense of that idea.

The damned in hell suffer forever, they hate God with a deep, eternal hatred, they can't even mention His name they hate Him so much, they hate the sacraments, they hate the Church and everybody in it, all they can do is hope that while in this life that their sins influenced their relations and others so that they too end up in hell.

They want everyone to join them in hell. Next to their pains and suffering, the only thing they want is to defeat God by getting the whole world into hell. They know they will never leave hell, they know they will remain in hell forever because they are disembodied spirits and have perfect knowledge of their sins and their eternity and why they are where they are.

The souls in purgatory can pray to God for us after they get to heaven. I think, as members of the Church Suffering, that He hears their prayers from purgatory, but I don't remember ever hearing anything on that taught by the Church.

Limbo is said to be a place of perfect happiness but they will never see God. Limbo is the place where the souls of unbaptized babies spend their eternity, and if there are any unbaptized souls over the age of reason who died without mortal sin on their souls, this is where they too spend their eternity. If these were to pray, God would not hear their prayers either.

Is there any Biblical or doctrinal reference why Limbo prayers go mute too?
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2019, 03:22:13 PM »
Not that I know of, but being as God judged and sentenced them to an eternity without God, strongly suggests to me that He does not want too and will never hear from them. But if they prayed at all, why would God want to hear their prayers? and what reason would they have to pray?

 

Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2019, 03:44:14 PM »
Wow, so 98 % of children are destined to go to hell automatically, pre-arranged at birth, because every country has Church membership down to 2 % these days.  And even if you are in the Limbo, given eternity you will have enough time to mess up and end up in the real hell with all the sufferings.  Bravo humanity: God 0 - satan 1?  So we are not created for the purpose of fellowship with God, but for the purpose of suffering in hell, and consequently we can now say with 98 % confidence, that creation itself is a mortal sin.

Always remember that those who are lost are lost because they will. No one is saved against his will and no one is damned against his will.

"Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him." Eccl 15:18

So now I am confused, why would a man's choices be immune from the games of the devil when everything else is not?  God gives everyone the body and the necessary provisions for life, and we see it every day everywhere how the devil harvests all of these before they even reach the intended recipient human.  So, why would the choices and the free will be any different?

So here is the story as I was taught by the Good Nuns. Everyone has a Guardian Angel that sits on there right shoulder and an evil angel on their left both whispering in your ear trying to get you to do good or evil. If you always listen to your Guardian Angel you will most likely go to Heaven if you listen to the other "angel" you will most likely go to hell. It is your choice.
 
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Offline gsas

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2019, 05:04:21 PM »
Wow, so 98 % of children are destined to go to hell automatically, pre-arranged at birth, because every country has Church membership down to 2 % these days.  And even if you are in the Limbo, given eternity you will have enough time to mess up and end up in the real hell with all the sufferings.  Bravo humanity: God 0 - satan 1?  So we are not created for the purpose of fellowship with God, but for the purpose of suffering in hell, and consequently we can now say with 98 % confidence, that creation itself is a mortal sin.

Always remember that those who are lost are lost because they will. No one is saved against his will and no one is damned against his will.

"Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him." Eccl 15:18

So now I am confused, why would a man's choices be immune from the games of the devil when everything else is not?  God gives everyone the body and the necessary provisions for life, and we see it every day everywhere how the devil harvests all of these before they even reach the intended recipient human.  So, why would the choices and the free will be any different?

So here is the story as I was taught by the Good Nuns. Everyone has a Guardian Angel that sits on there right shoulder and an evil angel on their left both whispering in your ear trying to get you to do good or evil. If you always listen to your Guardian Angel you will most likely go to Heaven if you listen to the other "angel" you will most likely go to hell. It is your choice.

Thanks, this makes sense to me. 

Also, I would like to add the non-linear effects, that as per 2 Timothy 4:3-4 "3For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching(!) ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. 4So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. ", or also 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 "... God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." So the more you listen to either side, the more that side gravitates you. 

So, like an exponential function, the more you turn on one side, the faster you get sucked to it.

This way, the 98 % of parents, who refuse to baptize their children and teach them that there is no God, cut the children off the right hand side ear direction, orientate the children to the left hand side, and just wait for gravity to do the rest and suck them into the black hole of hell, looks like. Now that I think of this again, where has the choice gone in this scenario?  Is it still there?  Plus then before this one-sided orientation starts its pull, there is already the bias of original sin, which would tip the balance even if the parents didn't lie, I think.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 05:08:56 PM by gsas »
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2019, 10:35:53 PM »
Concupiscence is an ardent, usually sensual, longing. Involuntary sexual arousal is explored in the Confessions of Augustine, wherein he used the term "concupiscence" to refer to sinful lust. In Catholic theology, concupiscence is seen as a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. There are nine occurrences of concupiscence in the Douay-Rheims Bible

Baptism does not remove concupience.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2019, 07:23:40 PM »
Not that I know of, but being as God judged and sentenced them to an eternity without God, strongly suggests to me that He does not want too and will never hear from them. But if they prayed at all, why would God want to hear their prayers? and what reason would they have to pray?

 

If by "prayer" you mean just prayer of petition - then yes I can see that it might be no use to them. They have natural bliss, but can't have heaven or any supernatural union with God, or the power of prayer given to Saints in heaven, or to others in the Communion of Saints. They would know that their state was God's will and not have any desire for more.

But I'm not so sure about other kinds of prayer. Surely the souls in limbo would know that God exists and created them and was their father and gave them their natural bliss. I think they would give Him at least thanksgiving and praise. I don't know what they would know of heaven and Christ, but if they knew enough they would thank God for them, and for the Saints praying to give Him glory. They could pray "Thy will be done" through the day, even though they could not do it supernaturally.  They would be very unique - not having God supernaturally, and yet satisfied with what they did have as God's will.  They would be in a level of hell (using the old traditional meaning), and not have supernatural hope, but they would have a certain natural trust in God.

I know I am only speculating.

[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Prayers from hell and other places?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2019, 06:45:12 AM »
Not that I know of, but being as God judged and sentenced them to an eternity without God, strongly suggests to me that He does not want too and will never hear from them. But if they prayed at all, why would God want to hear their prayers? and what reason would they have to pray?

 

If by "prayer" you mean just prayer of petition - then yes I can see that it might be no use to them. They have natural bliss, but can't have heaven or any supernatural union with God, or the power of prayer given to Saints in heaven, or to others in the Communion of Saints. They would know that their state was God's will and not have any desire for more.

But I'm not so sure about other kinds of prayer. Surely the souls in limbo would know that God exists and created them and was their father and gave them their natural bliss. I think they would give Him at least thanksgiving and praise. I don't know what they would know of heaven and Christ, but if they knew enough they would thank God for them, and for the Saints praying to give Him glory. They could pray "Thy will be done" through the day, even though they could not do it supernaturally.  They would be very unique - not having God supernaturally, and yet satisfied with what they did have as God's will.  They would be in a level of hell (using the old traditional meaning), and not have supernatural hope, but they would have a certain natural trust in God.

I know I am only speculating.

You could be right, who knows? It is an interesting subject to ponder, after all, the Fathers don't seem to say much at all about Limbo far as I know. All we really have to go by is a very few mentions of it, mostly I think we pretty much just go by the traditional idea of it, which leaves many questions unanswered.   
           
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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