Author Topic: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment  (Read 829 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2019, 07:56:27 PM »
The novus ordo is also formed in the context of catholicism.  Liturgy is not dogma.  And, denial of the assumption and the immaculate conception is heresy, which was the context of its application.

The assumption does not mean that Mary didn't die, only that her body was taken into heaven at the end of her earthly life.  The immaculate conception does not demand that Mary not die, only that her death could not have been a consequence of original sin, since she didn't have it.  The Eastern understanding in no way denies these doctrines.

The eastern schismatic orthodox do not believe that the assumption and the immaculate conception as catholics require them to be believed are binding dogmatic teaching.  For them, it is debatable theology.  Heresy.  Such will hold no sway if I have any say on particulars proximate to such discussions, such as this current one about the end of Mary's earthly life.

Well, in Rome, the Immaculate Conception wasn't binding dogmatic teaching till the 19th century; even though many Catholics like to contest the following, because they imagine that Church Fathers are incapable of error (something easily refutable if you've actually taken the time to look into the writings of St. Ambrose (non-Trinitarian Baptism works), St. John Chrysostom (no sins are remitted in Baptism), St. Irenaeus (Believing that demons and humans can copulate), St. Gregory of Nyssa (universalism), etc.) there's loads of evidence that St. Thomas Aquinas rejected it.

As for the Assumption, as I've stated before (unless you are choosing to ignore me), it's actually a closed issue in the Eastern Orthodox but an open issue in Rome. In Eastern Orthodoxy, you are not allowed to believe that Mary didn't die, but you have to believe that she was taken up Body and Soul into Heaven. There's basically no evidence of her not dying from Tradition; the fact that there's a pilgrimage site to her literal tomb in Jerusalem that Christians from around the world visited for hundreds of years kind of takes a bite out of your argument as that Tradition of her death being a novelty. You can visit her tomb; but her body isn't there.


In Roman Catholicism, it's an open issue that people are allowed to believe either way. I've yet to see a dogmatic, binding authority that mandates that the Roman Catholic Faithful have to believe she didn't die.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 08:01:21 PM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2019, 09:57:09 PM »
Christ died and was buried, incorrupt, and rose from the dead by His own power, and of course we do not pray for Him.  It seems quite fitting to me that His Mother the Virgin Mary died, and that she was carried, body and waiting soul then united, into heaven. I've seen both Western and Eastern art showing an open tomb.

The Virgin Mary could have been dead 3 days, like her Son.  This is what Venerable Mary of Agreda (only fallible, of course) depicts in The Mystical City of God.  I have an ulterior motive here.  If She died then, it would probably have been on my birthday.  :D

« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 10:01:10 PM by Non Nobis »
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2019, 10:11:13 PM »
If I was more of a rottweiler, I never would have tolerated such a response to my argument from aquinas138 to go properly unanswered for so long.  Your byzantine liturgy example is comparable to how the sedevacantists interpret "una cum" in the roman liturgy.  It simply means "we pray for the pope" as opposed to its literal meaning, obviously.  Meaning, ambiguity is present in the catholic church.  Your byzantine liturgy example in my opinion simply means, we beseech the intercession of these faithful departed, particularly because it mentions "and every spirit brought to perfection in faith", as opposed to we intercede for them.  Such is a confession of their sanctity and conviction that they are in heaven, and is not an example of what I was asking, which you admit to being unable to find in the west.  Well, I must break it to you, you have doubtfully found it in the catholic east.  I think it is like I initially said, a doubtful translation.  Yes, they are faithful departed, but they are "perfected in faith", and we are not interceding for them, we are seeking their intercession on what would obviously be the behalf of Christ, whose merits facilitate such. 

Because we believe they are in heaven, they have no need of prayers of mercy for them.  You must at least admit that.  If you confess someone to be a saint, especially the virgin mary, whose body is already in heaven, such a person is not in need of mercy prayers.  And, the argument of mine is prayer for living and the dead as a mercy.  Mary is not in need of that just as she is not in need of burial.  That is a mirror example of the works of mercy.   I am not going to let your off topic example distract from my valid argument.  My argument drawing from the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that the virgin was not buried and did not die is sound, and your counter is off the mark.  And, such an argument has much more strength than images, which have not mouths to speak, ears to hear, or eyes to see.

Even when one is not declared a saint, the cultus of prayers that develop around such a person are to seek grace from as opposed to for such a saint declared by the church or not.  But, that is not a mercy, for they are already in heaven, just not declared by the church.  The declaration doesn't place them in heaven, it simply acknowledges they are in heaven, as opposed to mercy prayers for one who is in purgatory.  Unless perhaps you want to argue that the spiritual work of mercy pray for living and the dead is not directed in a purgatorial sense.  Which is it?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 10:24:21 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2019, 10:35:11 PM »
Christ died and was buried, incorrupt, and rose from the dead by His own power, and of course we do not pray for Him.  It seems quite fitting to me that His Mother the Virgin Mary died, and that she was carried, body and waiting soul then united, into heaven. I've seen both Western and Eastern art showing an open tomb.

The Virgin Mary could have been dead 3 days, like her Son.  This is what Venerable Mary of Agreda (only fallible, of course) depicts in The Mystical City of God.  I have an ulterior motive here.  If She died then, it would probably have been on my birthday.  :D


The difference is that Christ must be buried in order to rise and fulfill all things unto salvation.  Mary does not.  And, it is therefore not to her glory.  It is to her glory that she not be buried.  It is more to her glory as one who has no stain of sin to not be buried, just as it is false to pray that God have mercy on her soul.  Her soul is full of grace.  Such beliefs run counter to the truth we know about her.  It does not make sense for Mary to be buried.  And, the doctrine of the Catholic church is clear that Christ judges all at the end of the world when bodies are resurrected as a result of Him.  Mary does not judge them.  Christ alone is the judge.  Likewise, there is no resurrection in Mary, because Mary never resurrected.  Mary was assumed into heaven.  Mary was not buried, as a result of her victory over sin and death merited by Christ our Savior.  Iconography is simply not a source of divine revelation.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2019, 12:16:13 AM »
I would like to get back to the other subject I started discussing in this thread, and that is the general judgment.  Who here present believes that there are other faithful departed whose bodies are united with their souls and in heaven?  And, what is your reasoning?  I contend that aside from the virgin mary and Jesus, there are none.  And, their will be none until the end of the world.  Can I get an amen?

Elias was taken up to Heaven body and soul in the fiery chariot.

4th Book of Kings (2 Kings) Chapter 2
Quote
[11] And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [12] And Eliseus saw him, and cried: My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the driver thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own garments, and rent them in two pieces.

I believe Henoch was taken up to Heaven body and soul also.

Hebrews Chapter 11
Quote
[5] By faith Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.

I think that is why it is commonly understood that Henoch and Elias will be the two witnesses of Apocalypse 11.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2019, 01:41:12 AM »
If I was more of a rottweiler, I never would have tolerated such a response to my argument from aquinas138 to go properly unanswered for so long.  Your byzantine liturgy example is comparable to how the sedevacantists interpret "una cum" in the roman liturgy.  It simply means "we pray for the pope" as opposed to its literal meaning, obviously.  Meaning, ambiguity is present in the catholic church.  Your byzantine liturgy example in my opinion simply means, we beseech the intercession of these faithful departed, particularly because it mentions "and every spirit brought to perfection in faith", as opposed to we intercede for them.  Such is a confession of their sanctity and conviction that they are in heaven, and is not an example of what I was asking, which you admit to being unable to find in the west.  Well, I must break it to you, you have doubtfully found it in the catholic east.  I think it is like I initially said, a doubtful translation.  Yes, they are faithful departed, but they are "perfected in faith", and we are not interceding for them, we are seeking their intercession on what would obviously be the behalf of Christ, whose merits facilitate such.

Because we believe they are in heaven, they have no need of prayers of mercy for them.  You must at least admit that.  If you confess someone to be a saint, especially the virgin mary, whose body is already in heaven, such a person is not in need of mercy prayers.  And, the argument of mine is prayer for living and the dead as a mercy.  Mary is not in need of that just as she is not in need of burial.  That is a mirror example of the works of mercy.   I am not going to let your off topic example distract from my valid argument.  My argument drawing from the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that the virgin was not buried and did not die is sound, and your counter is off the mark.  And, such an argument has much more strength than images, which have not mouths to speak, ears to hear, or eyes to see.

Even when one is not declared a saint, the cultus of prayers that develop around such a person are to seek grace from as opposed to for such a saint declared by the church or not.  But, that is not a mercy, for they are already in heaven, just not declared by the church.  The declaration doesn't place them in heaven, it simply acknowledges they are in heaven, as opposed to mercy prayers for one who is in purgatory.  Unless perhaps you want to argue that the spiritual work of mercy pray for living and the dead is not directed in a purgatorial sense.  Which is it?

We are just wasting each other's time. You discount any contrary evidence at all in favor of your own speculation. Byzantine liturgy? Clearly an error (an assessment based on nothing)! The artistic history of East and West? Art doesn't matter! I won't disrupt your amazing analogy between the spiritual and corporal works of mercy anymore. You can go on speculating away actual Tradition and replacing it with the "tradition" you judge to be so much more appropriate.

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2019, 01:50:17 AM »
Mikemac - That certainly is a theory of the two witnesses.  However, I am reading the footnote in my douay from chapter 2.  And, it says that "by heaven here is meant the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions".  Perhaps it is not the same heaven.

Are not the two witnesses to be slain at the end of the world?  Not even Christ dies twice.  Hence, enoch and elijah do not have their glorified bodies.  One reason it seems to me that God might do such as thing, is to present enoch and elijah as the arch type for those not yet baptized, though not cut off from grace/salvation.  Because, enoch and elijah were not baptized, yet at the end of the world they will be witnesses unto heaven, when the church is the seat of antichrist.  F**neyites, that one is for you.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2019, 01:51:52 AM »
St. John Damascene, whom His Holiness Pope Ven. Pius XII declares Doctor of the Assumption/Dormition, says She died/fell asleep (Hers was a sweet sleep, such as Eve would have had, before being translated into heaven), St. Alphonsus, says She fell asleep. Pope Pius XII himself, although H.H. did not dogmatically define it either way, in Munificentissimus Deus, strongly implies the Blessed Mother reposed.

To cite paras 17 and 18, "17. In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: "Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself."(11)

18. What is here indicated in that sobriety characteristic of the Roman liturgy is presented more clearly and completely in other ancient liturgical books. To take one as an example, the Gallican sacramentary designates this privilege of Mary's as "an ineffable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men." And, in the Byzantine liturgy, not only is the Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption connected time and time again with the dignity of the Mother of God, but also with the other privileges, and in particular with the virginal motherhood granted her by a singular decree of God's Providence. "God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you a virgin in childbirth, thus he has kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb."(12)" http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus.html

St. Alphonsus: "St. John saw Mary represented in that woman, clothed with the sun, who held the moon under her feet. And a great sign appeared in Heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. [3] Interpreters explain the moon to signify the goods of this world, which like her, are uncertain and unchangeable. Mary never had these goods in her heart, but always despised them and trampled them under her feet; living in this world as a solitary turtle in a desert, never allowing her affection to center itself in any earthly thing; so that of her it was aid: The voice of the turtle is heard in our land. [4] And elsewhere: Who is she that goeth up by the desert? [5] When the Abbot Rupert says, "Thus didst thou go by the desert; that is, having a solitary soul." Mary, then, having lived always and in all things detached from the earth, and united to God alone, death was not bitter, but on the contrary, very sweet and dear to her; since it united her more closely to God in Heaven, by an eternal bond.

II. Peace of mind renders the death of the just precious. Sins committed during life are the worms that so cruelly torment and gnaw the hearts of poor dying sinners, who, about to appear before the Divine tribunal, see themselves at that moment surrounded by their sins, which terrify them, and cry out according to St. Bernard, "we are thy works; we will not abandon thee." Mary certainly could not be tormented at death by any remorse of conscience, for she was always pure, and always free from the least shade of actual or Original Sin; so much so, that of her it was aid, Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee. [6] from the moment that she had the use of reason, that is, from the first moment  of her Immaculate Conception in the womb of St. Anne, she began to love God with all her strength, and. continue do so, always advancing more and more throughout her whole life in love and perfection. And all her thoughts, desires, and affections were of and for God alone; she never uttered a word, made a movement, cast a glance or breathed, but for God and His glory ; and never departed a step or detached herself for a single moment from the Divine love. Ah, how did all the lovely virtue that she had practiced during life surround her blessed bed in the happy hour of her death! That faith so constant; that loving confidence in God; that unconquerable patience in the midst of so many sufferings; that humility in the midst of so many privileges; that modesty; that meekness; that tender compassion for souls; that insatiable zeal for the glory of God; and, above all, that most perfect love towards Him, with that entire conformity to the Divine will: all, in a word, surrounded her and consoling her, said: "We are thy works; we will not abandon thee." Our Lady and Mother, we are all daughters of thy beautiful heart; now that thou a leaving this miserable life, we will not leave thee; we also will go, and be thy eternal accompaniment and honor in Paradise, where, by our means thou wilt reign as Queen of all men and of all Angels.

III. Finally, the certainty of eternal salvation renders death sweet. Death is called a passage; for by death we pass from a short to an eternal life. And as the dread of those is indeed great who die in doubt of their salvation, and who approach the solemn moment with welI-grounded fear of passing into eternal death; thus on the other hand, the joy of the Saints is indeed great at the close of life, hoping with some security to go and possess God in Heaven. A nun of the Order of St. Teresa, when the doctor announced to her her approaching death, was so filled with joy that she exclaimed, " O how is it, sir, that you announce to me such welcome news, and demand no fee?" St. Laurence Justinian, being at the point of death, and perceiving his servants weeping round him, said: "Away, away with your tears; this is no time to mourn." Go elsewhere to weep; if you would remain with me, rejoice, as I rejoice, in seeing the gates of Heaven open to me, that I may be united to my God. Thus also a St. Peter of Alcantara, a St. Aloysius Gonzaga, and so many other Saints, on hearing their death was at hand, burst forth into exclamations of joy and gladness. And yet they were not certain of being in possession of Divine grace, nor were they secure of their own sanctity, as Mary was.

But what joy must the Divine Mother have felt in receiving the news of her approaching death! She who had the fullest certainty of the possession of Divine grace especially after the Angel Gabriel had assured her that she was full of it, and that she already possessed God.  Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee . . . thou hast found grace. [7] And well did she herself know that her heart was continually burning with Divine love; so that as Bernardine de Bustis says, " Mary, by a singular privilege granted to no other Saint, loved, and was always actually loving God, in every moment of her life with such ardor, that St. Bernard declares, it required a continued miracle to preserve her life in the midst of such flames."

Of Mary it had already been asked in the sacred canticles, Who is she that goeth up by the desert, as a pillar smoke, of aromatical spices, of myrrh, and frankincense, allthe powders of the perfumer? [8] Her entire mortification typified by the myrrh, her fervent prayers signified by the incense, and all her holy virtues united to her perfect love for God, kindled in her a flame so great that her beautiful soul, wholly devoted to and consumed, by Divine love, arose continually to God as a pillar of smoke, breathing forth on every side a most sweet odor. "Such smoke, nay even such a pillar of smoke," says the Abbot Rupert, "Hast thou, O Blessed Mary, breathed forth a sweet odor to the Most High." Eustachius expresses it in still stronger terms: "A pillar of smoke, because burning interiorly as a holocaust with the flame of Divine love, she sent forth a most sweet odor."  As the loving Virgin lived, so did she died. As Divine love gave her life, so did it cause her death; for the Doctors and holy Fathers of the Church generally say she died of no other infirmity than pure love; St. Ildephonsus says that Mary either ought not to die, or only die of love." http://www.catholictradition.org/Assumption/assumption2.htm
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

Daily Morning Offering: O my God, in union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary,  I offer Thee the Precious Blood of Jesus from all the Altars  throughout the world, joining with It the offering of my every thought, word, and action of this day. I desire to gain every Indulgence and Merit I can, offering them, together with myself, to Mary Immaculate, Whom Thou hast appointed the dispenser of the merits of Thy Precious Blood, especially by means of this Scapular  [Here kiss your Brown Scapular] that She may best apply them to the interests of Thy Most Sacred Heart. Amen.

Consecration to Our Blessed Mother: My Queen, my Mother! I give myself entirely to Thee, and to show my devotion to Thee I consecrate to Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve, Wherefore, good Mother, as I am Thine own, keep me, guard me, as Thy property and possession." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/morning-offering.htm

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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2019, 07:03:16 AM »
Mikemac - That certainly is a theory of the two witnesses.  However, I am reading the footnote in my douay from chapter 2.  And, it says that "by heaven here is meant the air, the lowest of the heavenly regions".  Perhaps it is not the same heaven.

Are not the two witnesses to be slain at the end of the world?  Not even Christ dies twice.  Hence, enoch and elijah do not have their glorified bodies.  One reason it seems to me that God might do such as thing, is to present enoch and elijah as the arch type for those not yet baptized, though not cut off from grace/salvation.  Because, enoch and elijah were not baptized, yet at the end of the world they will be witnesses unto heaven, when the church is the seat of antichrist.  F**neyites, that one is for you.

Scripture says both Hennoch and Elias didn't die.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Lynne

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2019, 05:51:20 PM »

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2019, 12:01:52 AM »

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

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Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?

I pulled it from a Breviarium Romanum from 1763 on Google Books (my quick translation):

Famulórum tuórum, quæsumus Dómine, delíctis ignósce : ut qui tibi placére de áctibus nostris non valémus, genitrícis Fílii tui Dómini nostri intercessióne salvémur. Qui tecum vivit.

Forgive the sins of your servants, we beseech you, O Lord : that we, who are not able to please you by our deeds, may be saved by the intercession of the Mother of your Son, our Lord. Who with you lives...
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 

Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2019, 03:54:16 PM »
Faith without works is dead.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline Lynne

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2019, 06:04:27 AM »

But I will offer one bit of parting evidence for the death of the Virgin from a Western source, an ancient collect for the feast of the Assumption:

Quote
Veneranda nobis, Dómine, hujus diei festívitas opem cónferat salutárem, in qua sancta Dei Génitrix mortem subiit temporálem, nec tamen mortis néxibus déprimi pótuit, quae Filium tuum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum de se génuit incarnátum: Qui tecum.

May the venerable festivity of this day confer upon us, O Lord, (Thy) saving aid, on which the holy Mother of God underwent temporal death, and yet could not be held down by the bonds of death, even She that begot of Herself Thy Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, incarnate. Who with Thee...

This collect was used throughout the Middle Ages in many Western uses, and found in similar form at least as far back as the Gregorian Sacramentary. It remained in the traditional Dominican Rite, though the Novus Ordo Dominican Rite scrapped it. And in case you're wondering: the traditional collect used at Rome (NOT the one created in 1950) mentions neither her death NOR her Assumption.

Where would one find that collect?

I pulled it from a Breviarium Romanum from 1763 on Google Books (my quick translation):

Famulórum tuórum, quæsumus Dómine, delíctis ignósce : ut qui tibi placére de áctibus nostris non valémus, genitrícis Fílii tui Dómini nostri intercessióne salvémur. Qui tecum vivit.

Forgive the sins of your servants, we beseech you, O Lord : that we, who are not able to please you by our deeds, may be saved by the intercession of the Mother of your Son, our Lord. Who with you lives...

Thank you!
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2019, 07:42:57 AM »
Some people have already resurrected, the Gospels mention them: St. Matt. 27:
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[52] And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, [53] And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers