Author Topic: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment  (Read 845 times)

Offline Philip G.

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The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« on: October 16, 2019, 12:56:51 AM »
I am one of those catholics who does not believe that the Virgin Mary died.  As a catholic I obviously believe that she was bodily assumed in to heaven.  But, if she were to have died as some insist occurred, then with her body being assumed in to heaven(united to her soul after a so called valid death), something unique only to the general judgement/end of the world had to  occur for Mary, but obviously not yet for the rest of us.   

Doesn't that seem strange and out of place?  All the other saints in heaven have to wait until the end of the world and the general judgement to receive their glorified bodies, but not Mary?  Why would God have Mary undergo death and perform the same act for her privately instead of waiting until the end for of the world with the rest of humanity(which I also don't believe, because I don't believe that death ever will touch the virgin)?  This to me for one suggests that she did not die.  It sort of downplays the importance of the general judgement in my opinion.  Has this marian general judgement aspect been discussed by theologians?  And, what is their argument?  There is theological implications to this it would seem to me. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 01:15:30 AM by Philip G. »
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 06:26:19 AM »
Moses? He appeared at the Transfiguration. Moses certainly died. So either that was a glorified body or mere appearance, but that would make him out-of-place next to Jesus and Elijah.

She allegedly has bodily apparitions. So, if she didn't die, is that a real body and glorified body or not?
 

Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2019, 01:09:12 PM »
Moses? He appeared at the Transfiguration. Moses certainly died. So either that was a glorified body or mere appearance, but that would make him out-of-place next to Jesus and Elijah.

She allegedly has bodily apparitions. So, if she didn't die, is that a real body and glorified body or not?

I will have to think that the Moses of the Transfiguration was not his resurrected body, especially because that was a pre-passion occasion, and heaven was not yet opened to him, or anyone for that matter.  So, I say soul appearance/mystical vision. 

Regarding Mary, don't get me wrong, it is a mystery.  I would say that her bodily apparitions are her glorified body, which is the same as her real body.  The difference is in the fact that her glorified body, as well as the assumption, is a result of Jesus. 

Is it the opinion of theologians that pre passion there were resurrected/glorified bodies of old testament figures in heaven?  Some people say enoch.  You mention moses and elijah.  It seems straightforward to me that pre passion, and pre general judgement for that matter, there would be none. 

And, the general judgement doctrine seems straightforward enough to me as well, that is our bodies will be raised and joined to our souls.  If Mary must undergo death for some co redemption type reason, how is it efficacious when not associated with our bodily resurrection schedule and universal application? Christ has sacraments, Mary does not.  Her death doesn't make sense with these things in mind.  It makes it much easier for me to simply believe that she did not die, or ever will.  Which, I find to be a very delightful prospect. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 02:34:02 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline sedmohradsko

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2019, 04:03:42 PM »
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2019, 05:42:56 PM »
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I thought the Eastern tradition was that she fell asleep?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 06:05:08 PM »
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I know the eastern tradition emphasizes her Dormition.  To use grass as an example, dormant grass is not dead. 

This general judgement thought sounds somewhat trivial, but I wanted to see if anyone had a comment.  There are other reasons why I do not believe she died, or will meet death.  Think of the criticism of Sr. faustina as a replacement for the virgin mary.  If Mary died, it seems a little easier for heretics to propose the idea of generational "mother"s" of god/virgin mary's", just as some modernists do not believe Jesus was "the Christ", only "a Christ". 

I recall an argument for her death was so that she could relate/partake in our Lord's death.  But, the problem with that is not only did Jesus suffer bodily death, he also suffered being "forsaken by the father", which seems to be comparable to a type of spiritual death.  Which, I imagine our Lord would have to suffer in order to ransom even those who for example commit sins that cry to heaven for vengeance or dare I say sins against the holy ghost.  Our lady suffers much spiritually, but not being forsaken.  If not comparably forsaken, why must she comparably suffer bodily death like our Lord?  It makes more sense to me that Our Lady doesn't suffer bodily death, or spiritual death(forsaken). 

« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 06:09:19 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 07:50:03 PM »
While not de fide, the Eastern tradition is that she did indeed die.  As the tradition goes, the Theotokos passed away, and all the apostles were called to come mourn her.  St. Thomas, being in India, was unable to arrive in time, and her body was already in her tomb.  When he arrived and learned he was not able to see her, in tears he demanded the tomb to be opened so that he could venerate her one last time.  When the tomb was opened, it was discovered empty, just like her son's.  It is because of St. Thomas's late arrival that we are even aware that her body was assumed into Heaven.

I thought the Eastern tradition was that she fell asleep?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God

Well, now you are getting into the developments of Eastern and Western concepts of the Afterlife, which took marginally different turns.

From what a friend told me (so take that as you will), in the Greek New Testament, there are two separate words which refer to two different states - "Hades," or "the Underworld" which refers to the Pre-Judgment state of spiritual death after the person's demise, where the person is without body, and "Tartarus," or "Hell," which is the state of the spiritually dead person after the Last Judgment, body and soul.

In the Latin Vulgate, the word "Inferno" was used for both terms, and in theology, this naturally seems to have led to differences in both the East and West into the degree that both states are seen as similar to one another. There's a clearer differentiation between the two in the East, but the two are almost seen as synonymous in the West.

In Eastern Orthodoxy specifically, there's a very clear understanding of what "Tartarus" or "Hell" is; there really isn't a clear understanding of what "Hades" entails, because some icons or liturgical texts seem to suggest either that both states are really similar to each other despite being distinguished (eternal fire, torments by demons, unending pain), but in other places, there seems to be connotations and suggestions of "Soul Sleep" until the Last Judgment...

Which is what the title "Dormition" suggests; her soul going "dormant."

The West also had these suggestions, but they were clarified in a much more systematic way by the development of Limbo as distinguished from Hell, with Limbo retaining some level of those connotations of "Soul Sleep."

In one of the more traditional icons, we have Christ lifting up Adam and Eve from the tombs. The one bound in chains under the black void is death.



You'll notice that there are no clear suggestions or indications of fire or torturing, or Christ entering into a location in this icon. The Paschal Troparion, which is repeated endlessly during Easter in the Byzantine Liturgy, is "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs restoring life."

In Western equivalent artwork, you'll notice that Christ is either liberating the souls from Hell, or He is liberating them from a cave; suggesting he entered into Hell or Limbo to liberate the souls.



Same with the Last Judgment icons, where Hell and the dead rising from their tombs are seen as separate subjects.



Something still found in the West, although the West tends to interpret this as the souls reunifying with the bodies rather than the dead literally "reawakening" from the realm of the dead.




However, at the same time, there do seem to be texts, images, and visions from Saints which suggest an immediate torturing and condemnation to Hell after death at the same time, many of such images I'm sure you are familiar with.

For example, the "Ladder of Divine Ascent" from Saint John Climacus, probably the most foundational spiritual book in the Eastern Tradition, and it's icon of demons dragging souls to hell off the ladder



Or the similar "Death of St. Theodora"



And from the previous one, the theme of demons ready to drag souls into eternal torment after death seems to be a common one, and seemed to have been used by the Saints a lot.



Here's a video where an Eastern Orthodox individual looked through the events of Stalin's death as the demons approaching his bed to drag him unto Eternal Pain and Suffering.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 07:59:37 PM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 08:06:33 PM »
In fact, one of the most contested theological controversies in Eastern Orthodoxy right now is the concept of Toll Houses, which has its suggestions, even in the sources I've shared - it functionally kind of acts as a Purgatory in a certain sense. It goes like this; for those sins which you have not repented of, the demons will accuse you of it, with different demons for different types of sins ("toll houses" or stopping points to get to Heaven) and if you didn't do enough in good works (prayer, penance, almsgiving) that outweigh those sins, the demons will grab you and lead you to eternal fire.

Now, obviously, it's contested due to a very clear presumption of eternal torment happening before the Last Judgment, it's suggestions of Pelagianism, and how ironic it is that Eastern Orthodoxy is, in some areas, developing a Pseudo-Purgatorial concept. But the main issue is obviously the first point.


« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 08:09:29 PM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 08:13:13 PM »
I am looking at the Assumption definition to see if I can find anything regarding Mary's dormition.  And, there is much.

From the definition of the Assumption:

"And, since he could adorn her with so great a gift as to keep here unharmed by the corruption of the tomb, it must be believed that he actually did this".

"most complete victory over sin and death, which are always joined together  in the writings of the apostles of the gentiles"

"joined in a secret manner with Jesus Christ"

"gained full triumph over sin and its consequences, has finally attained as the highest crown of her privileges, that she should be immune from the corruption of the tomb, and that in the same manner as her Son she would overcome death and be taken away soul and body to the supernal glory of heaven". 

This "in the same manner" may seem like a problematic phrase, but not if you consider it.  In the same manner obviously does not mean crucifixion/death visible before all the eyes of the world.  The definition says much about preservation from corruption of the tomb.  Christ was buried in a tomb, and the stone was rolled over and then away to the testament of the apostles.  So, Christ gave up the ghost for all to see, and he was covered by a stone/earth. 

Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead".  When Mary fell asleep, she was not buried, because she was not in need of mercy in this regard.  Sin and death are always together.  Mary did not sin, and Mary did not die.  I think she was assumed as the definition says "in a secret manner".  That means Mary fell asleep, and there is no earthly(apostolic or not) witness of a death. "In like manner" must mean as what directly follows, and only that, that she rose into heaven body and spirit like Christ unlike the rest of creation which must wait until the end of the world/the general judgment.  Mary was not covered with earth, and she does not give up the ghost.  Christ was covered with earth, and he gave up the ghost.  Mary was covered with a cloud/overshadowed by the holy ghost.  "In like manner" refers only to the unity of the body and spirit into heaven, which is the dogma.
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 08:18:49 PM »
I have a new battle cry.  "Mary no die; you no rise"!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 09:02:50 PM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 08:21:02 PM »
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead".  When Mary fell asleep, she was not buried, because she was not in need of mercy in this regard.  Sin and death are always together.  Mary did not sin, and Mary did not die.  I think she was assumed as the definition says "in a secret manner".  That means Mary fell asleep, and there is no earthly(apostolic or not) witness of a death. "In like manner" must mean as what directly follows, and only that, that she rose into heaven body and spirit like Christ unlike the rest of creation which must wait until the end of the world/the general judgment.  Mary was not covered with earth, and she does not give up the ghost.  Christ was covered with earth, and he gave up the ghost.  Mary was covered with a cloud/overshadowed by the holy ghost.  "In like manner" refers only to the unity of the body and spirit into heaven, which is the dogma.

While I've said what I wanted to say, I want to point out that the Dormition doesn't mean that Mary wasn't bodily assumed into Heaven - it means that before that happened, she died, was burried, and then was Resurrected by Christ body and soul and taken into Heaven - "Assumed"

And you can actually visit the Tomb of the Virgin Mary in Jerusalem, which Eastern Christians recognize, traditionally, as her burial site; her tomb is empty though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Virgin_Mary

The Western Assumption dogma doesn't answer the question of whether she died or not, but like the Dormition, claims she was Assumed into Heaven body and soul.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 08:24:28 PM by TheReturnofLive »
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2019, 11:56:23 AM »
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2019, 12:59:23 PM »
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.

I then correct myself. In the definition of the assumption there is not found the phrase "falling asleep".  So, neither will I use it.  It is really simple, it is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead.  If mary was buried, it would be because she was in need of corporal mercy.  Which is not the case, because she is assumed into heaven.  And, this is significant, because there is no church of Mary.  There are no sacraments of Mary.  Christ needed to be buried in order to fulfill all things.  Mary does not need to fulfill as Christ, she is full of grace.  Mary has no need to be buried.  And, if there is no need, then she was not, and it is to her glory that she would not be.  This is unlike our Lady observing the jewish purification, in which there was a need, as Christ's time had not come, and was at that time dependent on Mary and Joseph.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2019, 01:09:28 PM »
Mary on the other hand "fell asleep".  It is a corporal mercy of the church to "bury the dead"...

You are drawing a false distinction between death and "falling asleep." They mean one and the same thing. The Greek word for "Dormition" is κοίμησις (kimisis). It is the source of our word "cemetery" and is clearly used to mean death in Ecclesiasticus 46:19 and 48:13.

The immortalist position has to ignore the entire liturgical, iconographic, and artistic tradition of the Church until about the 16th century. Even Western artists depicted the Virgin's death throughout the Middle Ages. She died, was (briefly) buried, suffered no corruption, and was taken body and soul into heaven.

I then correct myself. In the definition of the assumption there is not found the phrase "falling asleep".  So, neither will I use it.  It is really simple, it is a corporal work of mercy to bury the dead.  If mary was buried, it would be because she was in need of corporal mercy.  Which is not the case, because she is assumed into heaven.  And, this is significant, because there is no church of Mary.  There are no sacraments of Mary.  Christ needed to be buried in order to fulfill all things.  Mary does not need to fulfill as Christ, she is full of grace.  Mary has no need to be buried.  And, if there is no need, then she was not, and it is to her glory that she would not be.  This is unlike our Lady observing the jewish purification, in which there was a need, as Christ's time had not come, and was at that time dependent on Mary and Joseph.

The immortalist position is based entirely on speculation. It ignores 16 CENTURIES of Church tradition, including the stories in the liturgical services of the Eastern Churches explicitly talking about her funeral and entombment. It is an error. A tolerated error, but an error.
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Virgin Mary and the General Judgment
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2019, 01:13:40 PM »
To follow on my use of the corporal work of mercy bury the dead as it regards our lady, according to the thinking of those who say she died and was buried, we should likewise pray for mercy to be had on her soul as we would pray for the living and the dead.  But, that is clearly absurd.  Mary is full of grace.  Mary is spouse of the Holy Ghost.  Is there even a prayer remotely as such for Mary found in tradition?  Why would there be a separation in corporal and spiritual matters in this regard?  It is obvious.  Mary was not buried.  If she was not buried, she did not die.  "Full triumph over sin and its consequences(death)" is in the assumption definition itself. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:25:34 PM by Philip G. »
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12