Author Topic: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim  (Read 3432 times)

Offline Kreuzritter

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I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« on: October 11, 2019, 08:04:05 AM »
Quote
Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

Is there even one among you, even the most zealous devotee of Mary, who will stand behind this assertion and not see it for the pagan denigration of Jesus and inversion of the Gospel that it is?
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2019, 08:23:52 AM »
Quote
Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

Is there even one among you, even the most zealous devotee of Mary, who will stand behind this assertion and not see it for the pagan denigration of Jesus and inversion of the Gospel that it is?
Yes, this is totally unorthodox; but what was his source for this?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2019, 08:44:01 AM »
Quote
Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

Is there even one among you, even the most zealous devotee of Mary, who will stand behind this assertion and not see it for the pagan denigration of Jesus and inversion of the Gospel that it is?
Yes, this is totally unorthodox; but what was his source for this?

There’s a very strong movement within Catholicism for it, and it’s spurred on by some 19th century Papal Quotes and Marian apparitions.

See “Marian Movement of Priests.”

In 2008, there was also a letter sent by 5 cardinals to have Benedict confirm it as a dogma, which he never did.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 08:58:11 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2019, 08:51:55 AM »
With no disrespect to Xavier’s subjective relationship to God, because I’m sure he’s zealous, I am kind of baffled by this opinion and how people want it defined. Do people who have actually studied Church History, objectively, really believe that the Apostolic Church believed that Mary suffered and merited our Salvation? And why do people think it’s wise or expedient to force dogmatic definitions on people not based on answering a controversy, but because Fr. Andrew down the street had the Virgin tell him to ask the Pope to do so?

In my “Weird Vagante groups” section, I noticed how the Palmarian Catholic Church dogmatized doctrine that was revealed by apparitions, and I noted how it seemed like a parody of Catholic declarations made by Protestants - how the Virgin Mary is in the Eucharist, or how St. Joseph was immaculately conceived.

But this, the idea that the Virgin Mary merited our Salvation by her suffering...

Why do people think it’s wise or expedient to define dogmas revealed from apparitions?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:04:19 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2019, 08:53:01 AM »
Honestly, I'm not trying to scandalize with this one. All sorts of heterodoxies and contentious opinions abound here, and I'm guilty myself, but I'm seriously shocked by that statement.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2019, 09:15:40 AM »
Running away, are we? When you said, "I really don't care what Alphonsus Liguori had to say. His "Glories of Mary" is a work of blasphemous idolatry.", you showed how ridiculous and anti-Catholic is your thinking. You exalt yourself above such a holy Doctor with great temerity and false accusations against him.

Mary is Mediatrix of all Graces, and She made congruous (not condign) satisfaction for all sins, like Pope St. Pius X teaches us. I proved that there from Popes, Doctors and Saints already, when you began rejecting them all. I'm not going to do that again here. Better humble yourself and read St. Alphonsus again with docility, if you love Jesus Christ and His Only True Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

Pope St. Pius X: "11. If then the most Blessed Virgin is the Mother at once of God and men, who can doubt that she will work with all diligence to procure that Christ, Head of the Body of the Church (Coloss. i., 18), may transfuse His gifts into us, His members, and above all that of knowing Him and living through Him (I John iv., 9)?

12. Moreover it was not only the prerogative of the Most Holy Mother to have furnished the material of His flesh to the Only Son of God, Who was to be born with human members (S. Bede Ven. L. Iv. in Luc. xl.), of which material should be prepared the Victim for the salvation of men; but hers was also the office of tending and nourishing that Victim, and at the appointed time presenting Him for the sacrifice. Hence that uninterrupted community of life and labors of the Son and the Mother, so that of both might have been uttered the words of the Psalmist"My life is consumed in sorrow and my years in groans" (Ps xxx., 11). When the supreme hour of the Son came, beside the Cross of Jesus there stood Mary His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her Only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind, and so entirely participating in His Passion, that if it had been possible she would have gladly borne all the torments that her Son bore (S. Bonav. 1. Sent d. 48, ad Litt. dub. 4). And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world (Eadmeri Mon. De Excellentia Virg. Mariae, c. 9) and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood."

http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-x/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum.html Going to reject this also, aren't you? The Popes have fully endorsed the teaching of the Fathers, Scriptures, Saints, Prophets and Apostles on Mary as Queen of Martyrs.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:19:30 AM by Xavier »
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2019, 09:25:47 AM »
Running away, are we?

Err, no.


Quote
When you said, "I really don't care what Alphonsus Liguori had to say. His "Glories of Mary" is a work of blasphemous idolatry.", you showed how ridiculous and anti-Catholic is your thinking. You exalt yourself above such a holy Doctor with great temerity and false accusations against him.

This is your "holy Doctor", quoting the Hellenizer Bonaventure:

If my Redeemer rejects me on
account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast
myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain
prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness ; for this Mother of
Mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than
compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most
destitute who fly to her for succour; and therefore if not by duty, at
least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me.


This is blasphemy and a wretched misconception of the Christian God.


Quote
Mary is Mediatrix of all Graces, and She made congruous (not condign) satisfaction for all sins, like Pope St. Pius X teaches us. I proved that there from Popes, Doctors and Saints already,

No, you didn't. Your proved that 19th+ century popes and some second millennium saints held and taught that. You may as well - and if you were logically consistent you would - quote the Vatican II "saints" and popes on modernist doctrines.


Quote
when you began rejecting them all. I'm not going to do that again here. Better humble yourself and read St. Alphonsus again with docility, if you love Jesus Christ and His Only True Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

I don't read idolaters with docility.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 09:34:57 AM »
Unboudtedly 2,000 years lie between this and the faith of the Apostles, and it's nowhere as apparent as the Roman church, whether it's Mary cults, Ultramontanism, Modernism, LGBT-ism or whatever. With the Amzon synod and pagan rituals being held in the Vatican before the Bishop of Rome, those schismatic Eastern Orthodox are looking more and more Apostolic by the hour. Rome is become a pagan madhouse. That the Prots got it wrong doesn't mean Rome had it right.

I don't say this with any kind of glee. It's very upsetting to me.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 09:37:36 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 10:09:10 AM »
Even if "co-redemptrix" is a title admitting of an orthodox understanding, that understanding certainly isn't that the Virgin merited all graces for us and made satisfaction for our sins. The whole Roman logic of satisfaction is that the infinite debt of our offenses against the Infinite God cannot be paid by finite beings, which no matter how exalted she is, the Virgin is definitely a finite being.

Honestly, this stuff seems like it is designed purely to be provocative to Protestants and relies on peculiar understandings of words to remain within the bounds of orthodoxy. Whatever good is thought to come from such a definition, I can't see how it isn't outweighed by the almost certain heretical misconceptions that would arise.
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Offline Xavier

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 10:15:14 AM »
Quote
This is your "holy Doctor", quoting the Hellenizer Bonaventure:

Hellenizer? Does your depravity know no bounds?

Quote from: St. Alphonsus
If my Redeemer rejects me on account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness ; for this Mother of Mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most destitute who fly to her for succour; and therefore if not by duty, at least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me.

Amen.

Quote
This is blasphemy

You just committed mortal sin by accusing a holy Doctor of "blasphemy", "blasphemous idolatry", and "hellenizing". You should repent of those mortal sins and confess them at earliest opportunity. But given your vehement opposition to the Saints, it is unsuprising you don't shrink from accusing such manifestly holy and pious men of "blasphemy", yourself thereby blaspheming God in His Saints.

Quote
Your proved that 19th+ century popes and some second millennium saints held and taught that

And that's a sufficient proof. You also apply a false hermeneutic to second and first millenium Saints. If one of the latter agrees with the doctrine, as when Saint Irenaeus says "Mary became the cause of salvation to Herself and the whole human race", you try to interpret that in a twisted way, while not attacking the Saint. If Saint Bonaventure or Saint Alphonsus says the same, you attack the Saint.

Elsewhere, I proved the Filioque Dogma is true, and Photian Monopatrism is a heresy invented in the 9th century. St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Cyril, St. Leo and countless Saints, Fathers, Doctors and Popes rejected that heresy and taught the Filioque Dogma; yet, you want to run away to a group that will make you renounce the dogma and profess that heresy.

Quote
I don't read idolaters with docility.

How utterly shameless to call St. Alphonsus an idolater. St. Alphonsus was so holy that his worst enemies had nothing bad to say about him, and his foulest critic could not assail his indisputably great learning and fidelity to Scripture and Tradition.

I weep for you. That's all I can say. Pray more. Love Jesus and Mary. Strive to be holy. You will never find peace or salvation outside the Catholic Church. I hope you learn that the easy way by never leaving the Catholic Faith in the first place, rather than the hard way.

You've been threatening to apostatize for a while now from the Roman Catholic Church, and insulting or rejecting many of the Saints.

True devotion to Mary is very necessary to gain the grace of final perseverance from Christ. That's why we pray the Rosary, wear the Scapular, frequent the Sacraments, confess our sins and assist at Holy Mass in union with Christ Crucified. You can easily save your soul as a good Catholic, as even most non-Catholics admit. You cannot save your soul by deserting Mary and abandoning the Church, which is deserting and abandoning Christ.

"St. Montfort from Catholic Tradition: "All the true children of God, the predestinate, have God for their Father and Mary for their Mother. He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father. This is the reason that reprobates such as heretics, schismatics, and others, who hate Our Blessed Lady or who regard her with contempt and indifference, do not have God for their Father, however much they boast of it, simply because they do not have Mary for their Mother . . . The most infallible and indisputable sign by which we may distinguish a heretic, a man of bad doctrine, a reprobate, from one of the predestinate, is that the heretic and reprobate have nothing but contempt and indifference for Our Lady... The reprobate care next-to-nothing for devotion to Our Blessed Lady, the Mother of the predestinate . . . They do not consider devotion to her necessary for salvation." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18d.htm ...
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 10:16:03 AM »
Xavier: quotes a Sainted Pope and doctors of the Church
Kreuz: considers Doctors/Popes blasphemers & idolators

Let me think who's side to be on. Hmmm...
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Offline Bernadette

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 10:19:22 AM »
I love our Blessed Mother, and I love reading The Glories of Mary, but I can't see how she merited all of the graces we receive. She contributed , more than any other human person, to the treasury of merit in the Church which is applied to us in Indulgences, but that's quite a different thing from personally meriting all of the graces we receive. I can understand how Christ wills that we receive all grace through the hands of Our Blessed Lady, but again, that's a different thing.
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2019, 11:01:38 AM »
Quote
This is your "holy Doctor", quoting the Hellenizer Bonaventure:

Hellenizer? Does your depravity know no bounds?

Yes, a Scholastic Hellenizer who perverted the Christian faith with his Greek philosophical religion, the doctrines of Greek pederasts like Aristotle who are burning in Hell.

Quote
Quote from: St. Alphonsus
If my Redeemer rejects me on account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness ; for this Mother of Mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most destitute who fly to her for succour; and therefore if not by duty, at least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me.

Amen.

Figures. The god of your heart wears a dress.

Quote
Quote
This is blasphemy

You just committed mortal sin by accusing a holy Doctor of "blasphemy", "blasphemous idolatry", and "hellenizing".

No, I didn't. The quotation above is repugnant to the Gospel. Further, the Scholastics were demonstrably Hellenizers.

Quote
You should repent of those mortal sins and confess them at earliest opportunity. But given your vehement opposition to the Saints, it is unsuprising you don't shrink from accusing such manifestly holy and pious men of "blasphemy", yourself thereby blaspheming God in His Saints.

I'm not the one who's blaspheming God by painting a grotesque picture of Jesus, who alone suffered and died on the cross for every one of us, rejecting repentant sinners and Christians having to grovel before Mary to receive mercy. And as if Mary were more merciful than God! How dare you.

Quote
Quote
Your proved that 19th+ century popes and some second millennium saints held and taught that

And that's a sufficient proof.

No, it's not without your Ultramontanist presuppositions.

Quote
You also apply a false hermeneutic to second and first millenium Saints. If one of the latter agrees with the doctrine, as when Saint Irenaeus says "Mary became the cause of salvation to Herself and the whole human race", you try to interpret that in a twisted way, while not attacking the Saint. If Saint Bonaventure or Saint Alphonsus says the same, you attack the Saint.

I'm not interpreting anything. I'm taking the plain meaning of the text in a context that is explicitly given by numerous Fathers: Mary was instrumental in our redemption through her agreement to bear Jesus, the God-man. You're the one foisting another meaning onto that, a meaning that is not mentioned by a single Father.

Quote
Elsewhere, I proved the Filioque Dogma is true, and Photian Monopatrism is a heresy invented in the 9th century. St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Cyril, St. Leo and countless Saints, Fathers, Doctors and Popes rejected that heresy and taught the Filioque Dogma; yet, you want to run away to a group that will make you renounce the dogma and profess that heresy.

You have a very liberal conception of what a "proof" is.

Quote
Quote
I don't read idolaters with docility.

How utterly shameless to call St. Alphonsus an idolater. St. Alphonsus was so holy that his worst enemies had nothing bad to say about him, and his foulest critic could not assail his indisputably great learning and fidelity to Scripture and Tradition.

The Glories of Mary is a work of Mariolatry. It crosses the line of hyperdulia into a wretched goddess worship that I can barely read a page of without feeling ill.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2019, 11:04:10 AM »
Xavier: quotes a Sainted Pope and doctors of the Church

Kreuz: considers Doctors/Popes blasphemers & idolators

Let me think who's side to be on. Hmmm...

If you think this statement is alright

Quote
Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

and you think these are words worthy of a Doctor of the Church

Quote
If my Redeemer rejects me on
account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast
myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain
prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness ; for this Mother of
Mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than
compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most
destitute who fly to her for succour; and therefore if not by duty, at
least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me.

Then you're clearly not on my side.

But yeah, go after me for defending the Gospel and the dogma of the Council of Trent on the ONE REDEEMER because of non-infallible statements.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 11:06:02 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2019, 11:10:14 AM »
Let me be clear I'm on the Catholic side. By extension that means Xavier.

If you think you're right become a theologian and give us the correct doctrine or realize there is no one a lone wolf dissenter can ever rally the troops around their dissent. What you want to accomplish is impossible.

You cannot just write dissent against the Church without having the means to unify people. At that point you would just want to descend people into chaos.

You cannot place yourself ahead of saints and popes without realizing there is no one way anyone could follow your thoughts cohesively. It would just be another false religion started today.
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