Author Topic: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim  (Read 3430 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2019, 02:05:47 PM »
All that being said Xavier is right. Since Mary is God's shadow, filling up in a negative sense everything that God does in a positive sense, she accomplishes everything that God accomplishes and is involved in the creation of the world and every event in human history, especially the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ through which the world is redeemed. Is this patristic? Sure it is. The Church fathers say that the Sophia/Wisdom said in the Bible to have existed from eternity and loved by God refers to Mary herself. Everything I've said above is contained in that one patristic reflection on Mary.

What frightful and literal blasphemy. It’s actually disgusting to read these words. You are violating the first commandment, which says “I the Lord am your God. You shall have no others besides me.”

If the Virgin Mary were truly eternal, she would have to be uncreated, and therefore, either be another Hypostasis of the Trinity, or would have to be another deity all together who co-existed with God since the beginning.

This whole nonsense showed up in the Early Church under the heresy of Collyrydianism, and resurfaced under Bulgakov in the Russian Orthodox Church, and both times it was rightly condemned as a clear paganization of Christianity.

No doubt could Holy Wisdom be seen as a type of the Virgin Mary, but it being a type is not the same as being.

Show me one Church Father that demonstrates that the Virgin Mary is eternal and existed from God from the beginning. You won’t.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:07:31 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2019, 02:15:23 PM »
Mary is infinite in a negative sense (infinite nothingness)

That's a nonsensical string of words. And if she is, she is certainly not nothingness. But I will accept that she is as nothing next to God and this (ii) the fact that in her will she abased herself so entirely before God through humility, that she became so receptive to divine grace as to be able to receive infinitely boundless grace without resistance.

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All that being said Xavier is right. Since Mary is God's shadow, filling up in a negative sense everything that God does in a positive sense, she accomplishes everything that God accomplishes and is involved in the creation of the world and every event in human history, especially the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ through which the world is redeemed.

You're going to have to explain how that follows. Firstly, filling up in a negative sense everything that God does in a positive sense doesn't at all follow from (ii), and it's not clear how you imagine Xavier's claim follows even from that. In any case, even if she is filled with an energy that mirrors or shadows God's acts, or even with the divine essence itself, Mary is not the person who merited all the graces we receive and she is not the person who made satisfaction for our sins.

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Is this patristic? Sure it is. The Church fathers say that the Sophia/Wisdom said in the Bible to have existed from eternity and loved by God refers to Mary herself. Everything I've said above is contained in that one patristic reflection on Mary.

No offence John, but the appearance goddess worship deepens.

Firstly, you've established no connection between this claim and the one that Mary merited all our graces and made satisfaction for our sins. Secondly, that claim that Mary existed from eternity would appear to be heretical, flying in the face of the condemnation of the doctrine of pre-existence of souls. If you have an example of a Father actually teaching that the human person who is Mary existed from eternity, go ahead an provide it.


 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2019, 02:15:28 PM »
Xavier: quotes a Sainted Pope and doctors of the Church
Kreuz: considers Doctors/Popes blasphemers & idolators

Let me think who's side to be on. Hmmm...

Because, as we all know, Church Fathers can’t be wrong or make mistakes, even serious ones, like (from a Roman Catholic perspective) St. Cyprian bickering with the Pope about the invalidity of the Baptism of heretics, or St. John Chrysostom claiming that all infants are without sin, or St. Gregory of Nyssa’s very clear Origenistic ideas, or even St John of Damascus's ideas of the distinction between the Essence and Uncreated Energies of God. Also, no non-heretical Church Council can be wrong either, like how impious it is to paint on the walls of Churches in the Council of Elvira.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:40:07 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2019, 02:19:09 PM »
Xavier: quotes a Sainted Pope and doctors of the Church
Kreuz: considers Doctors/Popes blasphemers & idolators

Let me think who's side to be on. Hmmm...

Because, as we all know, Church Fathers can’t be wrong or make mistakes, even serious ones, like St. Cyprus bickering with the Pope about the invalidity of the Baptism of heretics, or St. John Chrysostom claiming that all infants are innocent, or St. Gregory of Nyssa’s very clear Origenistic ideas.

Let it be noted I called the particular work of one 18th century Roman saint idolatrous. And I don't think I'm alone in regarding some of its passages as crossing the line. There's a reason that book is able to be used truthfully to shock Protestants.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2019, 02:22:16 PM »
The waters over which the Spirit of God broods in the opening chapter of Genesis, at the creation of the world, is a figure of the waters of Mary's womb in which the new creation, Jesus Christ, is conceived. What's inside Mary's womb exceeds the bounds of the entire created universe, which is to say that Mary herself is greater than the entire created universe, in all places and throughout all ages.

That makes no sense. Jesus as man was no less contained in the universe, so how does Jesus as baby being contained in Mary's womb make Mary greater than the entire created universe? Moreover, Mary is but part of and contained in this universe!  This is hyperbolic babble.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2019, 02:31:33 PM »
The waters over which the Spirit of God broods in the opening chapter of Genesis, at the creation of the world, is a figure of the waters of Mary's womb in which the new creation, Jesus Christ, is conceived. What's inside Mary's womb exceeds the bounds of the entire created universe, which is to say that Mary herself is greater than the entire created universe, in all places and throughout all ages.

That makes no sense. Jesus as man was no less contained in the universe, so how does Jesus as baby being contained in Mary's womb make Mary greater than the entire created universe? Moreover, Mary is but part of and contained in this universe!  This is hyperbolic babble.


John Lamb is completely right about this quote, because you cannot separate Christ's Divinity from Christ's humanity after the Incarnation; they remain distinct, of course; they don't get compromised, but the two are permanently unified. There's only One Jesus Christ, who has both natures. While the Virgin Mary did not give birth to the Divinity of Christ, she still gave birth to God (in terms of the properties of His human nature), who in His very nature (in terms of the properties of His Divine nature) is infinite. Hence the term "Mother of God" or Theotokos. This whole question is what led to the Nestorian controversy and the subsequent Chalcedonian controversy.

The Byzantine Rite has this famous hymn:
"He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos."
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:38:17 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2019, 02:37:32 PM »
The waters over which the Spirit of God broods in the opening chapter of Genesis, at the creation of the world, is a figure of the waters of Mary's womb in which the new creation, Jesus Christ, is conceived. What's inside Mary's womb exceeds the bounds of the entire created universe, which is to say that Mary herself is greater than the entire created universe, in all places and throughout all ages.

That makes no sense. Jesus as man was no less contained in the universe, so how does Jesus as baby being contained in Mary's womb make Mary greater than the entire created universe? Moreover, Mary is but part of and contained in this universe!  This is hyperbolic babble.


John Lamb is completely right about this quote, because you cannot separate Christ's Divinity from Christ's humanity after the Incarnation; there's only One Jesus Christ, who has both natures. While the Virgin Mary did not give birth to the Divinity of Christ, she still gave birth to God, who in His very nature (His Divine nature, not the Logos's human nature) is infinite.

The Byzantine Rite has this famous hymn:
"He whom the entire universe could not contain was contained within your womb, O Theotokos."

I know. But he who was contained in the womb of Mary was also contained in the world. He was contained in the world while in her womb that is contained in the world, and he was contained in the world after being born. Therefore it makes no sense whatsoever to say, on that basis, that Mary is "greater than the entire created universe"; and that claim is in itself incoherent, if Mary is a creation and part of "the entire created universe", though it appears John may believe she isn't but is some kind of eternal being.

The mystery and miracle isn't just Mary's womb; it's the hypostatic union and incarnation itself.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 02:40:18 PM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2019, 02:38:25 PM »
While I find the last phrase of the Virgin Mary being greater than all of the created universe to be a bit uncomfortable, she is still the highest creation and the greatest Saint.

If you say that she isn't a created being, but rather was eternal or uncreated, that is blasphemy.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2019, 02:45:55 PM »
While I find the last phrase of the Virgin Mary being greater than all of the created universe to be a bit uncomfortable, she is still the highest creation and the greatest Saint.

True, though not a higher creation than Jesus' human nature. Mary is not the greatest human being to have ever lived; her son is. The fact of that nature being part of the created universe is also a problem for the claim.
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2019, 02:53:45 PM »
All that being said Xavier is right. Since Mary is God's shadow, filling up in a negative sense everything that God does in a positive sense, she accomplishes everything that God accomplishes and is involved in the creation of the world and every event in human history, especially the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ through which the world is redeemed. Is this patristic? Sure it is. The Church fathers say that the Sophia/Wisdom said in the Bible to have existed from eternity and loved by God refers to Mary herself. Everything I've said above is contained in that one patristic reflection on Mary.

What frightful and literal blasphemy. It’s actually disgusting to read these words. You are violating the first commandment, which says “I the Lord am your God. You shall have no others besides me.”

If the Virgin Mary were truly eternal, she would have to be uncreated, and therefore, either be another Hypostasis of the Trinity, or would have to be another deity all together who co-existed with God since the beginning.

This whole nonsense showed up in the Early Church under the heresy of Collyrydianism, and resurfaced under Bulgakov in the Russian Orthodox Church, and both times it was rightly condemned as a clear paganization of Christianity.

No doubt could Holy Wisdom be seen as a type of the Virgin Mary, but it being a type is not the same as being.

Show me one Church Father that demonstrates that the Virgin Mary is eternal and existed from God from the beginning. You won’t.

I don't mean to say that Mary is actually eternal. Of course she is not eternal or divine. However, since as you say Mary is the type of the Divine Wisdom, which is itself eternal: she is "eternal" in a mystical and analogical sense, which is to say that everything that is accomplished by the Divine Wisdom is in a sense accomplished by Mary who is Wisdom. Therefore she was present at the creation of the world, and assisted in the creation of the world; not in a material way, but in a moral way: God had her perpetually in Mind throughout every moment of history even from the beginning.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2019, 02:58:07 PM »
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God had her perpetually in Mind throughout every moment of history even from the beginning.

This is true of every single human being and even of Satan.
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2019, 02:59:25 PM »
While I find the last phrase of the Virgin Mary being greater than all of the created universe to be a bit uncomfortable, she is still the highest creation and the greatest Saint.

True, though not a higher creation than Jesus' human nature. Mary is not the greatest human being to have ever lived; her son is. The fact of that nature being part of the created universe is also a problem for the claim.

Jesus is not a human being or a creature. He is a divine & uncreated being who has taken a human nature unto himself. So Mary is the greatest human being and the greatest creature; though admittedly Jesus' created human nature is greater than hers and is the greatest created thing: the subject of Christ's human nature is the second divine Person, whereas the subject of Mary's nature is a human person.

edit: "Mary is . . . the greatest creature". I should say the greatest created person. Christ's Humanity is the greatest creature; it's just that this creature (Christ's Humanity) is not its own being separate from the divine Being, but is united to It. Mary is the greatest creature that is not hypostatically One with the Godhead.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 03:08:55 PM by John Lamb »
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2019, 03:05:26 PM »
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God had her perpetually in Mind throughout every moment of history even from the beginning.

This is true of every single human being and even of Satan.

Yes, but Mary is used instrumentally in every moment of history, unlike all other creatures (Satan included) who are used only in certain times & places (e.g. Satan was not used in the Incarnation). Even the angels and demons have their particular ministries. Mary is the universal minister to all creation. Since before she was actually born in the world, everything that God was doing in the world was for her and in a sense by her. She has always been present in every part of the world in a virtual way, just as God is present in every part of the world in an actual way. Put in another way, the world exists in God (actually), and the world exists in Mary (morally/virtually), since Mary is the archetype for all creatures.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2019, 03:11:36 PM »
While I find the last phrase of the Virgin Mary being greater than all of the created universe to be a bit uncomfortable, she is still the highest creation and the greatest Saint.

True, though not a higher creation than Jesus' human nature. Mary is not the greatest human being to have ever lived; her son is. The fact of that nature being part of the created universe is also a problem for the claim.

Jesus is not a human being or a creature. He is a divine & uncreated being who has taken a human nature unto himself.

Jesus' human nature is created. His human soul and body are created. He is God and man; as man, what is human of him is created, and yes, that makes Jesus a "human being" in common parlance, just  "a human" or "a man" if you prefer, if still one divine existential subject.

In any case, Mary is a part of creation and therefore cannot be greater than all of creation, even if she is one of the greatest parts.



 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2019, 03:26:28 PM »
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God had her perpetually in Mind throughout every moment of history even from the beginning.

This is true of every single human being and even of Satan.

Yes, but Mary is used instrumentally in every moment of history, unlike all other creatures (Satan included) who are used only in certain times & places (e.g. Satan was not used in the Incarnation).

Satan necessitated the Incarnation for our salvation. Every moment of history, and every creature in it, is inextricably entwined with every other and "instrumental" for the whole being what it is.

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Even the angels and demons have their particular ministries. Mary is the universal minister to all creation. Since before she was actually born in the world, everything that God was doing in the world was for her

Here they are again replacing Jesus with Mary. The Alpha and Omega, the efficient and final cause of creation, is Jesus Christ, not Mary. And that office of minister belongs to him. The love of God for Mary is right up there, but it doesn't exceed that of Father for Son.

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and in a sense by her.

"In a sense" .. yeah, every and any string of words is true "in a sense".

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She has always been present in every part of the world in a virtual way,

These are just words.

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just as God is present in every part of the world in an actual way. Put in another way, the world exists in God (actually), and the world exists in Mary (morally/virtually), since Mary is the archetype for all creatures.

Man is made in the image of God, not in the image of Mary. Not that I think the words "exists morally in" make any sense.

Still some of what you say is interesting and not far from my heart, in a sense.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 03:33:50 PM by Kreuzritter »
 
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