Author Topic: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim  (Read 3429 times)

Offline revival2029

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Thanked: 65 times
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2019, 11:11:00 AM »
She is the Queen of Heaven
Is a superior conjointly in Heaven with Jesus
Is the greatest among the created
and is the Mystical City of God

But to be saved one must have Jesus Christ as King of their Soul and he enters explicitly through the Eucharist and essentially through Baptism by water.  Period.  End of Story.

If we come to find out that the Eucharist also contains Mary body and blood I will change my tune.

The truth is precise and can err either way, and I honestly do not think we have quite grasped this complex doctrine completely yet.

It was Jesus through the microchimerism that entered her body permanently, so she literally had the tissue of Jesus in her body after birth.
It was Jesus that became King of her soul through the Eucharist.
It was Jesus that enveloped her soul completely, inside and out.
Which is why praying to Mary is praying to Jesus.

 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, Xavier, bigbadtrad, Blue Violet

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2019, 11:15:28 AM »
Quote
You've been threatening to apostatize for a while now from the Roman Catholic Church

The "visible" Roman church has itself apostatised, with the Bishop of Rome leading the charge. And if that can happen, which it undoubtedly has, then it's totally unclear when it went off the rails. With Bergoglio? With Vatican II? With Vatican I? With the Scholastics? With the Eastern Schism?

Quote
, and insulting or rejecting many of the Saints.

Most people here reject saints like JPII etc. The only difference between me and them is I have no reason to set a limit at a date of 1960-something.
 
The following users thanked this post: Daniel

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5593
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2019, 11:16:50 AM »
Hi Bernadette. This is Fr. Garrigou Lagrange, "For the same reason, all that Christ merited for us on the Cross in strict justice, Mary merited for us by congruous merit, based on the charity that united her to God. Christ alone, as head of the human race, could strictly merit to transmit Divine life to us. But Pius X sanctioned the teaching of theologians when he wrote: "Mary, united to Christ in the work of salvation, merited de congruo for us what Christ merited for us de condigno." [18]

This common teaching of theologians, thus sanctioned by the sovereign pontiffs, has for its principal traditional basis the fact that Mary is called in all Greek and Latin tradition the new Eve, Mother of all men in regard to the life of the soul, as Eve was in regard to the life of the body. It stands to reason that the spiritual mother of all men ought to give them spiritual life, not as the principal physical cause (for God alone can be the principal physical cause of Divine grace), but as the moral cause by merit de congruo, merit de condigno being reserved to Christ. [Essentially Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange refers to the theological concept of strict or full merit, owed directly because of the equality between the one rendering the service and the service itself,(justice) versus proportionate merit [charity, love.---The Web Master.]

The Office and Mass proper to Mary Mediatrix assemble the principal testimonies of Tradition on this point with their scriptural foundations, in particular the clear-cut statements of St. Ephrem, the glory of the Syriac Church, of St. Germanus of Constantinople, of St. Bernard, and of St. Bernardine of Siena. Even as early as the second and third centuries, St. Justin, St. Irenaeus, and Tertullian insisted on the parallel between Eve and Mary, and showed that if the first concurred in our fall, the second collaborated in our redemption. [19]" http://www.catholictradition.org/Christ/mediatrix.htm

I hope it is clear that I meant secondary and subordinate merit by congruous merit. That is the way Pope St. Pius X and Fr. G-L explain it here. Mary merited by congruous merit, they teach, all that Christ alone merited for us condignly, i.e. in strict justice.

Right, BigBadTrad. It's one thing for Catholics even to say, "I highly respect the Doctors of the Church, but I have some slight doubts/questions/reservations about Mary as Mediatrix of all Graces or Co-Redemptrix with Christ. I would accept it if the Church defines it infallibly, but I question it until then". That would be legitimate. Unfortunately, attacking Saints and Doctors as idolaters isn't.
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2019, 11:19:19 AM »
Let me be clear I'm on the Catholic side. By extension that means Xavier.

If you think you're right become a theologian and give us the correct doctrine or realize there is no one a lone wolf dissenter can ever rally the troops around their dissent. What you want to accomplish is impossible.

The lone wolf opinion here is this one:

Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.


If you agree with it, you're heterodox.

Quote
You cannot just write dissent against the Church without having the means to unify people. At that point you would just want to descend people into chaos.

You cannot place yourself ahead of saints and popes without realizing there is no one way anyone could follow your thoughts cohesively. It would just be another false religion started today.

Affirm Amoris Laetitia and the Amazon Synod then.
 
The following users thanked this post: Graham, abc123, Philip G., TheReturnofLive

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2019, 11:21:55 AM »
Quote
This common teaching of theologians

Accept the Novus Ordo cult then. Accept Bergoglio's teachings. They are the common teaching of today's theologians and explicitly endorsed by the Pope, opposed only by conservative minorities and trad outliers.
 
The following users thanked this post: Graham

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5593
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2019, 11:36:35 AM »
Quote from: Kreuzritter
Yes, a Scholastic Hellenizer...

Shameless rubbish. The Seraphic Doctor was esteemed and venerated highly for his learning and sanctity even in his lifetime. When St. Thomas heard that St. Bonaventure was writing the biography of Saint Francis, St. Thomas said, "Let us leave a Saint to write of another Saint." St. Bonaventure admirably defended the Catholic Doctrine against the errors of the Greek Church that you seem so infatuated with. St. Thomas had written an excellent work on the subject, after a very detailed study of Scripture and Tradition. St. Bonaventure defended it at Lyons II. Thanks to that, so many Greek Christians became Catholic for a while. After Florence, the same happened temporarily.

St. Bonaventure was a very holy Doctor who lived his life and wrote his works only for the glory of God and the honor of His Mother.

Quote
Figures. The god of your heart wears a dress.

Figures that I receive the teachings and prayers of the Doctors of the Church with docility, as every Catholic should? The God of my heart is Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, Who became Flesh of His Virgin Mother, and Whose Sacred Heart is One with Her Immaculate Heart in all things by Love and Grace. He associated Her with Him in all His work from His Infancy to Her Assumption.

Quote
The Glories of Mary is a work of Mariolatry.

Treason and Blasphemy against God and His Church. It is a work of the highest orthodoxy, the purest devotion that rightly venerates Mary with Hyperdulia. It was written by a Saint and Doctor and has been approved and commended by other Popes and Saints highly.

Quote
I can barely read a page of without feeling ill.

That is a sad testament of your current spiritual state in and of itself. But blaming the Doctor and the Popes who praised the work for that is like blaming the thermometer for showing you have an otherwise easily remediable fever. The right thing to do would be to admit something must be wrong, spend time receiving the healing grace of the Sacraments, and to say your Rosaries and other prayers for healing and illumination from God. God has enlightened His Church through the Doctors He has raised up in every age since the Apostles. We are not going to throw out 2000 years of Catholic Tradition that has ever produced the highest fruits when it's adhered to.

As for today's modern crisis, it is like the Arian one that will be cleared up in good time by those whom God will raise up. He raised up St. Athanasius, and Arianism that had sprung up for a short while even after the Council of Nicaea died. He many times condemned Modernism and denial of His doctrines through His holy Vicar Pope St. Pius X. Today's dissenters openly admit they reject many doctrines of the Church. We're not going to fight them by rejecting all or thousands of years of Tradition and denying dogmas like Filioque. Not at all. We're going to fight them by prayer, holiness, firmly adhering to all the dogmas of the Church. God will do the rest.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 11:41:30 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
The following users thanked this post: Blue Violet

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2019, 11:44:28 AM »
Quote from: Kreuzritter
Yes, a Scholastic Hellenizer...

Shameless rubbish. The Seraphic Doctor was esteemed and venerated highly for his learning and sanctity even in his lifetime. When St. Thomas heard that St. Bonaventure was writing the biography of Saint Francis, St. Thomas said, "Let us leave a Saint to write of another Saint." St. Bonaventure admirably defended the Catholic Doctrine against the errors of the Greek Church that you seem so infatuated with. St. Thomas had written an excellent work on the subject, after a very detailed study of Scripture and Tradition. St. Bonaventure defended it at Lyons II. Thanks to that, so many Greek Christians became Catholic for a while. After Florence, the same happened temporarily.

Nothing you've written there has anything to do with the issue of Hellenization through Greek pagan philosophy. Aquinas was another Hellenizer.



Quote
Quote
Figures. The god of your heart wears a dress.

Figures that I receive the teachings and prayers of the Doctors of the Church with docility, as every Catholic should?

Figure that you would think Jesus Christ would reject a repentant sinner, requiring us to run to his more merciful mother.


Quote
Quote
The Glories of Mary is a work of Mariolatry.

Heresy, Treason and Blasphemy.

Keep shaking your skinny little fists at me. Heresy is a denial of defined dogma and blasphemy is only possible against God. As for "treason", I never signed up for the religion expressed in that book.

Quote
We are not going to throw out 2000 years of Catholic Tradition that has ever produced the highest fruits when it's adhered to.

The contents of The Glories of Mary being "2000 years of Catholic Tradition" ... you're insane.

Quote
As for today's modern crisis, it is like the Arian one that will be cleared up in good time by those whom God will raise up. He raised up St. Athanasius, and Arianism that had sprung up for a short while even after the Council of Nicaea died. He many times condemned Modernism and denial of His doctrines through His holy Vicar Pope St. Pius X. Today's dissenters openly admit they reject many doctrines of the Church. We're not going to fight them by rejecting all or thousands of years of Tradition and denying dogmas like Filioque. Not at all. We're going to fight them by prayer, holiness, firmly adhering to all the dogmas of the Church. God will do the rest.

Cognitive dissonance. Vatican I is falsified. Game over.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 11:47:21 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
The following users thanked this post: abc123

Offline Xavier

  • Eternal Father, through Mary's Immaculate Heart, We Offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in Atonement for our sins and those of the Whole World.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5593
  • Thanked: 3926 times
  • Slave of the Risen Jesus in the Holy Sacrifice.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas' Indult Traditional Roman Catholic.
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2019, 12:03:09 PM »
Quote
Aquinas was another Hellenizer.

St. Thomas was another great Saint whom you contemptuously insult. You've already sided with the heterodox Greeks 99.99%. You should know the Greek Orthodox themselves once highly esteemed St. Thomas, like the Patriarch who said "O most excellent Thomas! Why did Heaven give you birth in the West". St. Thomas was a man who loved Christ Crucified, the Holy Eucharist, the Mother of God.

Quote
Figure that you would think Jesus Christ would reject a repentant sinner, requiring us to run to his more merciful mother.

More rubbish. Jesus Christ has given us His Mother as our Mother and as an intercessor; that's why He first said His time had not yet come at Cana, but then worked the miracle after Her intercession. I suppose you must believe Moses and Abraham are "more merciful than God", since He Himself raised them up to intercede before Him. No, His Mercy appoints intercessors for us, which you ignore.

Quote
blasphemy is only possible against God

Figures from your Protestant thinking that you would think this, but it's not true: "BLASPHEMY Definition: Speaking against God in a contemptuous, scornful, or abusive manner. Included under blasphemy are offenses committed by thought, word, or action. Serious contemptuous ridicule of the saints, sacred objects, or of persons consecrated to God is also blasphemous because God is indirectly attacked." https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=32193 and "Blasphemy (Greek blaptein, "to injure", and pheme, "reputation") signifies etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem. In this broad sense the term is used by Bacon when in his "Advancement of Learning" he speaks of "blasphemy against learning". St. Paul tells of being blasphemed (1 Corinthians 4:13) and the Latin Vulgate employs the word blasphemare to designate abusive language directed either against a people at large (2 Samuel 21:21; 1 Chronicles 20:7) or against individuals (1 Corinthians 10:30; Titus 3:2)" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

Quote
The Glories of Mary being "2000 years of Catholic Tradition

Yes, of course it is. Through and through. It would hardly be possible to document in a short post how many and how great are the numerous, holy and highly learned ancient authorities from whom St. Alphonsus proves what he teaches there in admirable depth.

Someone who hasn't read it before can read it for themselves and see that it is: http://www.themostholyrosary.com/the-glories-of-mary.pdf

See also: "Fr. Miller says that St. Alphonsus Liguori, as a published author, has no competitors: «The most popular author, who ever lived, was St. Alphonsus Liguori, and he never wrote a novel. No other writer, sacred or profane (we are not speaking of the Holy Bible, which is a class by itself), ancient or modern, has had so many different editions of his works published as St. Alphonsus.»” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 623-624)" https://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/alphonsus/alphonsus-facts.html

And "(Way of the Cross & Visits to the Bl. Sacrament) “St. Alphonsus’ Way of the Cross and Visits to the Blessed Sacrament give familiar testimony to his devotion to the sacred humanity of Christ. These are his works most published in English, and in fact all languages. According to a count made in 1933, the Way of the Cross had at that time been published 63 times in English and 890 times in all; the Visits had been published 54 times in English and 2,009 times in all.” (Source: Thirthy-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 616)

(Pius IX) “One can in fact assert that there has not been one error even in our times which Alphonsus, at least in great measure, did not fight against ... (Immaculate Conception and St. Alphonsus) «Due to the effort of this popular Mariologist [St. Alphonsus], -the most influential in the history of modern Catholicism- the way was made easy for the ultimate triumph of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.» (Albert Hauck in ‘Realencyclopedie’, Vol. XII, p. 326, quoted in ‘Irish Ecclesiastical Record’ 82:391). St. Alphonsus entered the lists against Louis Muratori, Father of Italian History, who denied the Immaculate Conception, and defended it vigorously.” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 618)

(Immaculate Conception and St. Alphonsus) “Pope Pius IX asks: «Are not the things we have solemnly approved concerning the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother of God and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff when teaching ex cathedra … found and most clearly explained, and demonstrated with the strongest arguments, in the works of St. Alphonsus?» (Decree conferring the title of Doctor of the Church).” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 618)” (Source: Qui Ecclesiae Suae, Apostolic Letter, Pius IX, Rome, 1871)"

Quote
Game over.

It was game over for the schismatic Orthodox 1000 years ago, when they denied the Filioque Dogma after it was clearly proved. Vatican I speaks of ex cathedra doctrinal infallibility, and the only cognitive dissonance is yours if you think that has been falsified. The only ex cathedra infallible declaration of doctrine in recent times was made by Pope John Paul II on ordaining only men, but that has been rejected by those who don't believe in infallibility.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 12:06:35 PM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us" [Promise: 1000 Souls from Purgatory]"This short prayer, this insistent prayer, every time it is said, sets free from Purgatory 1000 Souls, who reach the Eternal Joy, the Eternal Light"(!). http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
The following users thanked this post: bigbadtrad, Blue Violet

Offline bigbadtrad

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 570
  • Thanked: 857 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2019, 12:14:08 PM »
Xavier ignore him.

You can't have a meaningful discussion without a starting point. If saints and holy popes are idolators and blasphemers there is no common point.
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, orate, Michael Wilson, Xavier

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2019, 12:23:32 PM »
Feminists, New Atheists, Mormons, Marxists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Nazis, Xavier ... you're all the same, and you all employ the same apologetic methods. Everyone on the outside can see how trite your pseudo-arguments are and what a ridiculous pose you strike.

Quote
Quote
Aquinas was another Hellenizer.

St. Thomas was another great Saint whom you contemptuously insult.


And a Hellenizer who moulded Christian clay into the structure of Aristotelian ideology, the doctrine of a boy-buggering pederast.

Quote
Quote
Figure that you would think Jesus Christ would reject a repentant sinner, requiring us to run to his more merciful mother.

More rubbish. Jesus Christ has given us His Mother as our Mother and as an intercessor; that's why He first said His time had not yet come at Cana, but then worked the miracle after Her intercession.

This has nothing to do with my point. Jesus Christ does not turn away any repentant sinner. Ever. Nothing, nothing at all, can separate us from hsi love and mercy when we sincerely cry out to him. And to say otherwise is to deny the Sacrament of Penance.

Quote
I suppose you must believe Moses and Abraham are "more merciful than God", since He Himself raised them up to intercede before Him. No, His Mercy appoints intercessors for us, which you ignore.

You are incredibly stupid if you think that's why I called Mary "more merciful" as implied by Bonaventure's disgraceful words.

Quote
Quote
blasphemy is only possible against God

Figures from your Protestant thinking that you would think this, but it's not true: "BLASPHEMY Definition: Speaking against God in a contemptuous, scornful, or abusive manner. Included under blasphemy are offenses committed by thought, word, or action. Serious contemptuous ridicule of the saints, sacred objects, or of persons consecrated to God is also blasphemous because God is indirectly attacked."

I don't accept your definition of a word, and there is no such thing as a true definition.


Quote
Quote
The Glories of Mary being "2000 years of Catholic Tradition

Yes, of course it is. Through and through.

DE-LUSIONAL.

Quote
It would hardly be possible to document in a short post how many and how great are the numerous, holy and highly learned ancient authorities from whom St. Alphonsus proves what he teaches there

Yeah ... we've already established what you regard to be "proof".

Quote
in admirable depth.

Could you just once try speaking like a human being instead of with this affected hyperbole.

Quote
See also: "Fr. Miller says that St. Alphonsus Liguori, as a published author, has no competitors: «The most popular author, who ever lived, was St. Alphonsus Liguori, and he never wrote a novel. No other writer, sacred or profane (we are not speaking of the Holy Bible, which is a class by itself), ancient or modern, has had so many different editions of his works published as St. Alphonsus.»” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 623-624)" https://www.goodcatholicbooks.org/alphonsus/alphonsus-facts.html

Shakespeare.

What does this have to do with anything?

Quote
And "(Way of the Cross & Visits to the Bl. Sacrament) “St. Alphonsus’ Way of the Cross and Visits to the Blessed Sacrament give familiar testimony to his devotion to the sacred humanity of Christ. These are his works most published in English, and in fact all languages. According to a count made in 1933, the Way of the Cross had at that time been published 63 times in English and 890 times in all; the Visits had been published 54 times in English and 2,009 times in all.” (Source: Thirthy-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 616)

What does this have to do with anything?

Quote
(Pius IX) “One can in fact assert that there has not been one error even in our times which Alphonsus, at least in great measure, did not fight against ... (Immaculate Conception and St. Alphonsus) «Due to the effort of this popular Mariologist [St. Alphonsus], -the most influential in the history of modern Catholicism- the way was made easy for the ultimate triumph of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.» (Albert Hauck in ‘Realencyclopedie’, Vol. XII, p. 326, quoted in ‘Irish Ecclesiastical Record’ 82:391). St. Alphonsus entered the lists against Louis Muratori, Father of Italian History, who denied the Immaculate Conception, and defended it vigorously.” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 618)

(Immaculate Conception and St. Alphonsus) “Pope Pius IX asks: «Are not the things we have solemnly approved concerning the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Mother of God and the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff when teaching ex cathedra … found and most clearly explained, and demonstrated with the strongest arguments, in the works of St. Alphonsus?» (Decree conferring the title of Doctor of the Church).” (Source: Thirty-Three Doctors of the Church, Rengers C. O.F.M. Cap., Washington, 1993, p. 618)” (Source: Qui Ecclesiae Suae, Apostolic Letter, Pius IX, Rome, 1871)"

What does this have to do with anything? Particularly, The Glories of Mary representing a 2,000-year-old tradition?!?

Quote
Quote
Game over.

It was game over for the schismatic Orthodox 1000 years ago, when they denied the Filioque Dogma after it was clearly proved. Vatican I speaks of ex cathedra doctrinal infallibility, and the only cognitive dissonance is yours if you think that has been falsified. The only ex cathedra infallible declaration of doctrine in recent times was made by Pope John Paul II on ordaining only men, but that has been rejected by those who don't believe in infallibility.

That's not all Vatican I teaches.
 
The following users thanked this post: Graham

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1465 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2019, 12:25:18 PM »
Xavier ignore him.

You can't have a meaningful discussion without a starting point. If saints and holy popes are idolators and blasphemers there is no common point.

So you agree with Xavier that

Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

?

Funny, because every person besides you who has contributed to this thread has agreed with me that it is false.
 
The following users thanked this post: Graham

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7003
  • Thanked: 5121 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2019, 12:42:27 PM »
Quote
Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

Is there even one among you, even the most zealous devotee of Mary, who will stand behind this assertion and not see it for the pagan denigration of Jesus and inversion of the Gospel that it is?

I did not happen to see that statement by Xavier, but the Church's dogma is that Jesus Christ alone was in a position to make satisfaction for our sins and did in fact do so.  It belongs to divine justice alone.
 
The following users thanked this post: Graham, aquinas138, Blue Violet, Philip G., TheReturnofLive

Offline Prayerful

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7031
  • Thanked: 3237 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2019, 01:32:34 PM »
Xavier ignore him.

You can't have a meaningful discussion without a starting point. If saints and holy popes are idolators and blasphemers there is no common point.

So you agree with Xavier that

Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

?

Funny, because every person besides you who has contributed to this thread has agreed with me that it is false.

It certainly seems to be error. Christ died for our sin.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2382 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2019, 01:49:32 PM »
Mary is infinite in a negative sense (infinite nothingness), just as God is infinite in a positive sense (infinite being). Mary's nothingness is based on (i) the fact that she's a creature, and therefore stands in the same relationship of nothingness as all creatures do before the infinite Being of Almighty God, and (ii) the fact that in her will she abased herself so entirely before God through humility, that she became so receptive to divine grace as to be able to receive infinitely boundless grace without resistance.

In the first sense she's the same as all creatures. In the second sense she is utterly unique among all creatures, since no other creature has so perfectly conformed and united themselves to their Creator, revealing her to be the ultimate creature, the creature of creatures, the summit of all created beings. Therefore this creature, Mary, shares a unique relationship with the Creator, since she is the archetype and perfection of all God's creation and is therefore its supreme representative and advocate. In a sense, there is God, there is Mary, and there is everything else, since Mary stands in a category of her own in between God and creatures; she is the prototype of all creatures and alone the most perfect one.

Therefore, mystically speaking, we can see the world as being the romance between God and His Spouse, Mary. However, this mystical analogy is best applied to the Church the bride of Christ; that said, Mary is still the greatest living figure of the Church, so it applies to her more than any other single person.

All that being said Xavier is right. Since Mary is God's shadow, filling up in a negative sense everything that God does in a positive sense, she accomplishes everything that God accomplishes and is involved in the creation of the world and every event in human history, especially the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ through which the world is redeemed. Is this patristic? Sure it is. The Church fathers say that the Sophia/Wisdom said in the Bible to have existed from eternity and loved by God refers to Mary herself. Everything I've said above is contained in that one patristic reflection on Mary.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson, Xavier, Blue Violet

Offline John Lamb

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2052
  • Thanked: 2382 times
    • Psalms
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2019, 01:57:51 PM »
The waters over which the Spirit of God broods in the opening chapter of Genesis, at the creation of the world, is a figure of the waters of Mary's womb in which the new creation, Jesus Christ, is conceived. What's inside Mary's womb exceeds the bounds of the entire created universe, which is to say that Mary herself is greater than the entire created universe, in all places and throughout all ages.
"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

An ominous dream.
 
The following users thanked this post: Michael Wilson, Xavier, Blue Violet