Author Topic: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim  (Read 3440 times)

Offline John Lamb

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2019, 02:27:00 PM »
From Adoration:
Quote
The Blessed Virgin, as manifesting in a sublimer manner than any other creature the goodness of God, deserves from us a higher recognition and deeper veneration than any other of the saints; and this peculiar cultus due to her because of her unique position in the Divine economy, is designated in theology hyperdulia, that is dulia in an eminent degree. It is unfortunate that neither our own language nor the Latin possesses in its terminology the precision of the Greek. The word latria is never applied in any other sense than that of the incommunicable adoration which is due to God alone. But in English the words adore and worship are still sometimes used, and in the past were commonly so used, to mean also inferior species of religious veneration and even to express admiration or affection for persons living upon the earth. So David "adored" Jonathan. In like manner Miphiboseth "fell on his face and worshipped" David (2 Samuel 9:6). Tennyson says that Enid in her true heart, adored the queen. Those who perforce adopted these modes of expression understood perfectly well what was meant by them and were in no danger of thereby encroaching upon the rights of the Divinity. It is hardly needful to remark that Catholics, too, even the most unlearned, are in no peril of confounding the adoration due to God with the religious honour given to any finite creature even when the word worship, owing to the poverty of our language, is applied to both.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01151a.htm

Yeah, Greek seems the best language for coming up with very specific words for very specific concepts. We know what we mean. The "adoration" (latria) that is given to God is an absolute and total prostration without any form of limit or restraint whatsoever, a complete self-abasement before the Divinity. When we worship the saints we do humble ourselves before them and acknowledge their superior power and virtue; but we don't utterly prostrate ourselves in this way.
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2019, 02:57:29 PM »
Kreuritter stated:
Quote
She didn't merit all the graces we receive de congruo and, even if you insist on that, she definitely did not make satisfaction for our sins, which is impossible.
Keuzritter,
It is a teaching of the Church that a person in the state of grace can merit for others (because of the Communion of Saints); both the grace of conversion and the grace of salvation. They can also make reparation for the sins of others including the souls in Purgatory, through prayer, penance and good works. But Our Blessed Mother's close association and relationship with her Divine Son, as well as her own excellent degree of grace and sanctity, means that her works of satisfaction are supremely pleasing to her Son and to the Blessed Trinity; more so than that of all the other creatures put together. Therefore she is able to obtain from Her son all that she asks from Him for our conversion and salvation.
Ott states the following on the title of Co-Redemptrix:
Quote
St. Ambrose expressly teaches: "Christ's Passion did not require any support"(De inst. virg. 7).
In the power of the grace of Redemption merited by Christ, Mary, by her spiritually entering into the sacrifice of her Divine Son for men, made atonement for the sins of men, and (de congruo)) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she co-operates in the subjective redemption of mankind.
The Statement of Pope Pius X in the Encyclical "Ad Diem Illum" (1904): ....The Blessed Virgin merits for us de congruo what Christ merited de condigno is as the present tense "promeret" shows, not indeed to be taken as referring to the historical objective Redemption, which occurred once and for all, but to her ever-present, intercessory co-operation in the subjective redemption.
That is not the same thing as "made satisfaction for our sins"
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2019, 03:01:00 PM »
The Canon Law of the Latin Church is considered universal; and while the Church has always had Canon laws, they were gathered in separate collections, leading to the repetition and overlapping of many laws; so in the 20th C. Pope Pius X ordered the gathering of all the collections into a single volume, plus the harmonization of the laws; the elimination of laws that had fallen into disuse etc. That is the 1917 Code.
Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia article: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
I am thinking by "2 codes of Canon Law" he was referring to the the Eastern Rites and the Roman Rite.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2019, 03:30:44 PM »
The Canon Law of the Latin Church is considered universal; and while the Church has always had Canon laws, they were gathered in separate collections, leading to the repetition and overlapping of many laws; so in the 20th C. Pope Pius X ordered the gathering of all the collections into a single volume, plus the harmonization of the laws; the elimination of laws that had fallen into disuse etc. That is the 1917 Code.
Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia article: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
I am thinking by "2 codes of Canon Law" he was referring to the the Eastern Rites and the Roman Rite.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I was addressing the fact that a code of Canon law that is meant for the Church in general is a "universal law", as opposed to a law that would only be for a restricted part or province.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2019, 06:24:02 PM »
At Mass today this word de congruo meaning merited came to mind during the Invocation of the Saints.

Quote
In communion with and honoring the memory, first of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ: as also of blessed Joseph, her Spouse, and of Thy blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John ... Cosmos and Damian, and of all Thy saints: by whose merits and prayers grant that we may in all things be defended by the aid of Thy protection.  Through the same Christ our Lord.  Amen.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2019, 07:55:24 PM »
If a man is not Catholic, then by canon law he is not a true pope, therefore there is no actual magisterium he can write that we would be bound to obey. For example, new sins against ecology (i.e. failing to recycle as a mortal sin.)

The problem, of course, is that this line of reasoning doesn't work in the Catholic model.

The pope is not the representative of the Church. He is the representative of God. He is not judged by the Church but by God alone. Prima sedes a nemine judicatur. As the supreme lawgiver, he is also above canon law.

No.
Wrong
Oh.

ETA: Dogma. That's what I was understanding the statement to be.
Just to be clear What Vetus posted is correct. The Pope has Supreme Ordinary Jurisdiction.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2019, 03:00:13 AM »
I. If Mary dispenses all graces which originate in Christ, then as Christ merited those graces in strict justice which He now dispenses as from a Source, it necessarily follows that Mary must have merited those graces by a secondary and sub-ordinate merit, which She now dispenses as through a Channel. Christ is the Source of Grace, Mary is the Channel of Grace. Christ merited every grace in strict Justice, Mary merited them congruously by a secondary merit based on friendship and charity, by Her very many extraordinary good works throughout Her Holy, Blameless, Immaculate and Perfect life without the slightest sin, fault or imperfection. The text from the infancy Gospel of St. Matthew that Tradition has handed down was cited elsewhere, and from it we can all appreciate easily how the Blessed Virgin was already the Saint of Saints and Living Saint at age 3 in the Temple,

""And Mary was held in admiration by all the people of Israel; and when She was Three Years Old, She walked with a step so mature, She spoke so perfectly, and spent Her time so assiduously in the praises of God, that all were astonished at Her, and wondered; and She was not reckoned a young Infant, but, as it were, a grown-up person of Thirty years old. She was so constant in prayer, and Her appearance was so beautiful and glorious, that scarcely any one could look into Her face.

And She occupied herself constantly with Her wool-work, so that She in Her tender years could do all that old women were not able to do. And this was the order that She had set for Herself: From the morning to the Third hour She remained in prayer; from the Third to the Ninth She was occupied with Her weaving; and from the Ninth She again applied Herself to prayer. She did not retire from praying until there appeared to Her the angel of the Lord, from whose hand She used to receive food; and thus She became more and more perfect in the work of God. Then, when the older virgins rested from the praises of God, She did not rest at all; so that in the praises and vigils of God none were found before Her, no one more learned in the wisdom of the law of God, more lowly in humility, more elegant in singing, more perfect in all virtue. She was indeed steadfast, immoveable, unchangeable, and daily advancing to perfection. No one saw Her angry, nor heard Her speaking evil.

All Her speech was so Full of Grace, that Her God was acknowledged to be in Her tongue. She was always engaged in prayer and in searching the law, and She was anxious lest by any word of Hers She should sin with regard to Her companions. Then She was afraid lest in Her laughter, or the sound of Her beautiful voice, She should commit any fault, or lest, being elated, She should display any wrong-doing or haughtiness to one of Her equals. She blessed God without intermission; and lest perchance, even in Her salutation, She might cease from praising God; if any one saluted Her, She used to answer by way of salutation: Thanks be to God. And from Her the custom first began of men saying, Thanks be to God, when they saluted each other. She refreshed Herself only with the food which She daily received from the hand of the angel; but the food which She obtained from the priests She divided among the poor. The angels of God were often seen speaking with Her, and they most diligently obeyed Her. If any one who was unwell touched Her, the same hour he went home cured."


II. From H.H. Pope St. Pius X, we read: "from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world (Eadmeri Mon. De Excellentia Virg. Mariae, c. 9) and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood." Now, if Mary merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix (equivalent word of Co-Redemptrix) of the lost world, and the Dispensatrix of all the gifts that our Savior purchased for us, it clearly follows that (1) Mary merited, in union with Christ and sub-ordinate to Him, all the gifts He purchased for us, and (2) She now dispenses those gifts to us.

III. Further, and as a Third Proof, (for Catholic Christians, I'm not speaking to heretics, schismatics, apostates, the faithless, the heterodox, and non-professing-Catholics here), from what Fr. G-L writes, "Christ alone, as head of the human race, could strictly merit to transmit Divine life to us. But Pius X sanctioned the teaching of theologians when he wrote: "Mary, united to Christ in the work of salvation, merited de congruo for us what Christ merited for us de condigno." [18] is proven both that (1) Christ alone merited and could merit in strict justice the transmission of graces to us (2) Mary merited, by a secondary merit based more on the friendship of charity that united to Her to God, all the graces that Christ merited, Her Immaculate Heart being at every moment in Perfect Union with His Sacred Heart.

If we poor, fallen, sinful and ever-sinning creatures can still merit, will any Catholic Christian ever dare say Mary Immaculate would not merit super-abundantly? Most certainly, She would and would did merit more than all creatures put together, but under Christ, and only by the merciful merit that is called congruous merit; not the strict merit of perfect justice that is called condign merit; and now She dispenses those merits to us according to God's will, and each person's own efforts in co-operation with God's Grace and Hers.

An article from Catholic Culture on Mary Mediatrix of All Graces. Btw, as St. Alphonsus' beautiful sublime work, the Glories of Mary, was of indispensable help, as we learn from His Holiness Pope Bl. Pius IX in the Glorious Triumph of the Immaculate Conception Dogma, it also has been and most certainly will be instrumental in the Triumph of the Catholic Doctrine that Mary merited and dispenses all graces: https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=10176

Quote
Pius VII called her “Dispensatrix of all graces.”[15] Pius IX tells us “God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation.”[16] Does everyone know? Obviously not yet. Leo XIII writes “nothing at all of that great grace which the Lord brought us…is imparted to us except through Mary.” The same pontiff quotes St Bernadine of Siena who teaches “Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.” St. Pius X, in his encyclical Ad Diem Illium which he wrote after study of the writings of St Louis de Montfort taught Mary is the “Dispensatrix of all the gifts which Jesus gained for us by His death. Several years later this Saint Pope called Mary the “treasurer of all graces”[17].

Benedict XV says “together with Christ she has redeemed the human race . . . for this reason every kind of grace that we receive from the treasury of the Redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same sorrowful Virgin.”[18] In one of the miracles for St. Joan of Arc’s canonization, objection was that since the miracle took place at Lourdes it was Mary’s intercession and not Joan’s. Benedict XV declared “in every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God’s will, every grace and blessing comes to us . . . Mary must never be excluded.”[19]

Pius XI also called Mary “treasurer of all graces” at least three times in his pontificate[20]. Pius XII taught “nothing is excluded from her dominion”[21] and “it is the will of God that we obtain all favors from Mary.”[22] John XXIII rhetorically asks “Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary” and more directly instructs us that “from her hands hope for all graces.”[23] In a letter to the Legion of Mary this pope said that “the Legion of Mary present the true face of the Catholic Church”[24]. The Legion, founded by Frank Duff, takes it entire spirituality from St. Louis de Montfort. So, in effect, Pope John XXIII is telling us that St. Louis de Montfort’s work presents the true face of the Catholic Church. How can anyone who embraces the Catholic Church, upon hearing this, be a critical and/or scrupulous devotee (which will be discussed later)? ...

In the Glories of Mary St Alphonsus goes to great length and research quoting many past saints in teaching us about Mary. Chapter 5 is dedicated to Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces and included in the cited edition of the book, is also a severe refutation to those who claimed his work was intentionally exaggerated and not to be taken literally. As he begins to build his case for Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces St. Alphonsus quotes St Ephrem (d. 373 A.D.) as praying to Mary “after God we have no hope but in thee.” He also quotes St Andrew of Crete (d. 740 A.D.) who identifies Mary with the Mercy-Seat in Exodus and attributing its importance to Mary.[37] He teaches Mary as the Ark of Noah and none were saved except those in the Ark.[38]

St Alphonsus explains that Mary is necessary to our salvation not absolutely but morally, by the will of God and that all the graces God dispenses come through her hands. Doctor Alphonsus tells us that St Germanus, St Anselm, St John Damascene, St Bonaventure, Saint Anoninus, and St Bernadine of Siena all asserted the intercession of Mary was necessary to our salvation and Alphonsus assures us this is not a hyperbolic and exaggerated claim.[39]. Alphonsus and popes cite at length St Bernadine of Siena (patron saint of this author’s studies at the University of Steubenville on whose feast day the application for admittance was written by the way), who teaches that “all graces of the spiritual life that descend from Christ their head, to the faithful, who are His mystical body, are transmitted by Mary” and the reason is because “that as God was pleased to dwell in the womb of this holy Virgin, she acquired a kind of jurisdiction over all graces.”[40]

St. Alphonsus refers to St Ildephonsus (d. 667 A.D.) along with one of our other Doctors, St Bernard, as teaching that God has determined that no grace shall be granted otherwise than by the hands of Mary.[41] And yet another Doctor, St Bonaventure (d. 1274) is cited regarding the Isaiah’s “rod out of the root of Jesse” who teaches “whoever desires the grace of the Holy Spirit let him seek for the flower of the Holy Ghost in the rod, that is Jesus in Mary, for by the rod we find the flower and by the flower God so if you desire to possess the flower bend down the rod which bears the flower by prayer.”[42]

St Alphonsus, Doctor of the Church, tells us “the Church believes with St Bernard that God has determined that no grace shall be granted otherwise than by the hand of Mary.” “God wills it” says St Bernard[43]. Can we as good Catholics really trust in ourselves so much as to not embrace this and to think otherwise? As to St Bernard, this doctor of the Church and his teaching that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces absolutely permeated and influenced Marian teaching. Mary is the aqueduct from which all graces are distributed.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2019, 08:59:33 AM »
If a man is not Catholic, then by canon law he is not a true pope, therefore there is no actual magisterium he can write that we would be bound to obey. For example, new sins against ecology (i.e. failing to recycle as a mortal sin.)

The problem, of course, is that this line of reasoning doesn't work in the Catholic model.

The pope is not the representative of the Church. He is the representative of God. He is not judged by the Church but by God alone. Prima sedes a nemine judicatur. As the supreme lawgiver, he is also above canon law.

No.
Wrong
Oh.

ETA: Dogma. That's what I was understanding the statement to be.
Just to be clear What Vetus posted is correct. The Pope has Supreme Ordinary Jurisdiction.

Which is a red herring since to become Pope a man must be subject to Canon Law: Catholic. And Canon Law does not make provision for certain categories of persons to become Pope.

Further, and beyond the red herring, that the Pope can dispense himself from Canon Law is indicative that he is, in fact, in some way, subject to it -- otherwise he wouldn't need to dispense himself.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 09:16:13 AM by Gardener »
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2019, 10:25:21 AM »
If a man is not Catholic, then by canon law he is not a true pope, therefore there is no actual magisterium he can write that we would be bound to obey. For example, new sins against ecology (i.e. failing to recycle as a mortal sin.)

The problem, of course, is that this line of reasoning doesn't work in the Catholic model.

The pope is not the representative of the Church. He is the representative of God. He is not judged by the Church but by God alone. Prima sedes a nemine judicatur. As the supreme lawgiver, he is also above canon law.

No.
Wrong
Oh.

ETA: Dogma. That's what I was understanding the statement to be.
Just to be clear What Vetus posted is correct. The Pope has Supreme Ordinary Jurisdiction.

Which is a red herring since to become Pope a man must be subject to Canon Law: Catholic. And Canon Law does not make provision for certain categories of persons to become Pope.

Further, and beyond the red herring, that the Pope can dispense himself from Canon Law is indicative that he is, in fact, in some way, subject to it -- otherwise he wouldn't need to dispense himself.

    "If anyone shall say that Blessed Peter the Apostle was not constituted by Christ our Lord as chief of all the Apostles and the visible head of the whole Church militant: or that he did not receive directly and immediately from the same Lord Jesus Christ a primacy of true and proper jurisdiction, but one of honour only: let him be anathema."
    "If any one shall say that it is not by the institution of Christ our Lord Himself or by divinely established right that Blessed Peter has perpetual successors in his primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of Blessed Peter in this same primacy. — let him be anathema" (Denzinger-Bannwart, "Enchiridion", nn. 1823, 1825).

The Pope receives his authority From God who is above the Law.

SECTION I: THE SUPREME AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH (Cann. 330 - 367)
 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2019, 11:37:30 AM »
From my parish hall, a print of a late medieval painting showing that the magnification of Our Lady is not a modern innovation. My friend and I joked when we saw it how much Protestants would be shocked at how large Our Lady is in the image compared to Our Lord on the Cross.

"Let all bitterness and animosity and indignation and defamation be removed from you, together with every evil. And become helpfully kind to one another, inwardly compassionate, forgiving among yourselves, just as God also graciously forgave you in the Anointed." – Paul

The Question of Catholicism.

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Offline james03

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2019, 02:29:43 PM »
Quote
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword; and shall be led away captives into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles; till the times of the nations be fulfilled."

Well, whatever "the times of the nations be fulfilled" should mean, we are in it.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 

Offline james03

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2019, 02:33:24 PM »
Quote
The problem, of course, is that this line of reasoning doesn't work in the Catholic model.

If you mean that a Pope can be deposed via the Canon Law, then you are correct.  If you mean that a non Catholic can be Pope, you are in error.

St. Robert wrote about this.  If the claimant is an heretic, he is not the Pope because he is not Catholic.  Furthermore, there is no trial.  It's just a statement of fact.

Bergoglio has been accused of heresy umpteen times now.  He has not recanted.  He's an heretic, so he is not the Pope.  Probably Benedict is still Pope, or maybe there is no Pope.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 
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Offline james03

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Re: I'm astounded by Xavier's latest claim
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2019, 02:35:01 PM »
Quote
   "If anyone shall say that Blessed Peter the Apostle was not constituted by Christ our Lord as chief of all the Apostles and the visible head of the whole Church militant: or that he did not receive directly and immediately from the same Lord Jesus Christ a primacy of true and proper jurisdiction, but one of honour only: let him be anathema."
    "If any one shall say that it is not by the institution of Christ our Lord Himself or by divinely established right that Blessed Peter has perpetual successors in his primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of Blessed Peter in this same primacy. — let him be anathema" (Denzinger-Bannwart, "Enchiridion", nn. 1823, 1825).

The Pope receives his authority From God who is above the Law.
Non sequitur.  Bergolio is not the Pope.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."

"Although He should kill me, I will trust in Him"
 
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