Author Topic: Statement of Theologians on Mary Co-Redemptrix, 2017.  (Read 1340 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: Statement of Theologians on Mary Co-Redemptrix, 2017.
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2019, 06:46:06 AM »
Maximillian, the SSPX Seminary in Argentina is called Our Lady Co-Redemptrix. http://fsspx.org/en/our-lady-co-redemptrix-seminary If you read the history, it was the traditional Fathers in the pre-Vatican II drafts who wanted the dogma of Mary Co-Redemptrix defined.

Live, are you aware of what Msgr. Arthur relates here? "The situation at the Council – and especially behind the scenes – was far more complex. The fact is that many Bishops entering the Council wanted a statement on Mary as Coredemptrix and/or Mediatrix of all graces (the concepts are intimately related) and some even wanted a dogmatic definition on the matter. Let me make several points here. 1. As I already mentioned in an earlier interview: The first draft of the document that would eventually become chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium explicitly acknowledged the legitimacy of the term Coredemptrix as applied to Our Lady, but refrained from using it so as not to cause undue problems with our Protestant brothers and sisters. I believe that this was a questionable approach to ecumenism and one which intelligent Protestants could readily see through, but the restriction was adhered to in the writing of Lumen Gentium chapter 8." http://www.kath.net/news/3949

If you saw the earlier article, Pope John Paul II nevertheless refers to Mary as Co-Redemptrix many times. Pope Benedict XVI called on Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces but did, as you say, have some reservations about the Co-Redemptrix title. More on that later.

Are you aware of Fr. Juniper Carol's study in Mariology, published in 1957, which documents in detail the testimony of Eastern Liturgies,

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.. the rich imagery and the variety of ways in which Mary’s universal intercession is constantly emphasized unequivocally points to their consciousness that she is the channel of all heavenly graces. The gathering together of the numerous texts reflecting this conviction would constitute sufficient material for a separate dissertation. For reasons of necessary brevity we shall select but a few pertinent passages.

For the Byzantines, for example, Our Lady is “the bridge that brings mortals from earth to heaven.” (45) In their Divine Office she is addressed as the one “through whom the human race has found salvation” and through whom “we shall find Paradise.” (46) During the Mass, before Mary’s icon, the celebrant invokes her protection as “the fountain of mercy.” (47)[/u]

The Coptic liturgy is even more explicit. In one of its tropars we read that our salvation is insured “because every help comes to the faithful through Mary, the Mother of God.” (48) And in a certain theotokia: “We have no hope before the Lord Jesus Christ, except through thy prayers and intercession, O Queen of us all.” (49) Even in the administration of the various sacraments the priest’s prayer implies that the effects of the sacred rites are obtained somehow through the intercession of Mary. (50)[/u]

The Syrians are hardly less clear in conveying the same doctrine through their liturgy. Thus, in one of their many beautiful prayers they address Our Lady as follows: “How can I praise thee duly, O most chaste Virgin? For thou alone among men art all-holy; and thou givest to all the help and grace they need.” (51)

From the Armenian liturgy, so rich in references to Mary’s place in the economy of salvation, these two passages will suffice. “Rejoice, O Mother of God, throne of salvation and hope of the human race, Mediatrix of law and grace.” (52) “We take refuge in thee, O most holy one… dispenser of graces; thou art a fountain for the thirsty, rest for the afflicted, thou who hast borne the Word Divine.” (53)

Written on a somewhat similar vein, the following excerpts from the Chaldean liturgy on the feast of the Immaculate Conception are likewise significant. “O Queen of queens, all rich, enrich thy servants with benefits, O Mother of the Most High. For He has made thee the dispensatrix of His treasures and the universal Queen…. It is in thy bosom that He has placed His treasures, and in thee He has gathered together graces as in a sea, and He has made thee the source of life for mortals….” (54)

From these testimonies, which could easily be multiplied, it is sufficiently clear that the sacred liturgy, both in the East and in the West, faithfully mirrors the mind of the Church relative to the doctrine of Mary’s universal mediation in the dispensation of every grace

...With regard to the thesis that Mary is the Dispensatrix of every single grace, some theologians consider it doctrina catholica ... The greater number of theologians, however, classify it as fidei proxima, that is to say, a truth which, in the almost unanimous consent of theologians, is contained in the written or orally transmitted word of God.

(45) Ofpcio del Inno Akatistos in onore della SS. Madre di Dio (Grottaferrata, 1949) p. 15. Ibid; p. 32: “Hail, dispenser of divine goodness!”

(46) Gumbinger, art. cit., p. 203.

(47) S. Salaville, Marie dans la liturgie byzantine ou grec-slav, in Maria. Etudes sur la Sainte Vierge, ed. H. du Manoir, S.J., Vol. I (Paris, 1949), p. 303.

(48) Kitab al ebsallyati wa al Turwhat (Cairo, 1913), p. 131. Cf. G. Giamberardini, O.F.M., La mediazione di Maria nella chiesa egiziana (Cairo, 1952), p. 75.

(49) Al Khwlagy… pp. 206-207; Giamberardini, p. 56.

(50) E. Denzinger, Ritus Orientalium, Vol. 1 (Wirceburgi, 1863), pp. 205, 238, 259, 437. Giamberardini, pp. 73-74.

(51) D. Attwater, Prayers from the Eastern Liturgies (London, 1931), p. 20.

(52) Tekeyan, La Mere de Dieu dans la liturgie armenienne, in Maria. Etudes sur la Sainte Vierge, ed. H. du Manoir, S.J., Vol. 1 (Paris, 1949), p. 359.

(53) Tekeyan, art. cit., p. 360.

(54) A. M. Massonat, O.P., Marie dans la liturgie chaldeenne, in Maria. Etudes sur la Sainte Vierge, ed. H. du Manoir, S.J., Vol. 1 (Paris, 1949), pp. 348-350.

Fr. Carol believed that Mother Mary as both Mediatrix of all Graces and Co-Redemptrix with Christ and wrote numerous articles to that end. Here's St. Cyril of Alexandria attribute all the Church's Victories to the intercession of the Mother of God, https://classicalchristianity.com/2012/04/07/st-cyril-on-the-mother-of-god/
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 07:14:16 AM by Xavier »
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Statement of Theologians on Mary Co-Redemptrix, 2017.
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2019, 07:44:39 AM »
Quote from: Kreuzritter
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Are you a child who loves your Mother and grieves over Her Sorrows, or one who minimizes them and thinks of them as pretty much nothing at all?

Straw man.

I get it. You're a child who wants to drive your own Swords through your Mother's Heart, by denying something Saints, Popes and Doctors have taught about Her, that brings great glory to God, and great honour to His Mother. Good luck with that.

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True or not, it doesn't demonstrate your contention.

It certainly does. Why don't you actually do some reading yourself, of what the Saints and Doctors have written? I'm not going to spoon feed you anymore, but I already gave you sufficient links to read from if you were interested in knowing the Truth. You can start with St. Ildephonsus, of whose writing I bet you have read nothing: "Saint Ildephonsus did not hesitate to assert, "to say that Mary's sorrows were greater than all the torments of the martyrs united, was to say too little." Read his life history and see how much the Mother of God honored him for preaching the Truth, and spreading true devotion to Her, if you have not done that before. I stand with the Saints.

Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins. She did this in the highest degree possible to creatures, and subordinate only to Her Divine Son. That is how She is like Her Divine Son.

That is Theosis. A creature who desires union with the crucified Christ must learn to suffer like Him for the Church, as martyrs do. Mary is by Grace all that Jesus is by Nature, as Scripture calls Her the Full of Grace, just as it calls Him Full of Grace and Truth. He has divinized His Mother by placing all His gifts of Grace in Her. Therefore, by the very fact that He is Redeemer, She is Co-Redemptrix in the highest degree possible to a Creature, because She co-operated in His Redemption at the Cross more than any creature ever has.

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Firstly, I totally reject the Anselm's satisfaction theory of atonement

You reject everything you don't like, like a Protestant. Catholics, who revere all Tradition, not pick and choose from "sola first millenium only", do not. But Mary Co-Redemptrix does not depend on any particular theory, but on St. Paul's teaching on martyrdom being satisfactory for others; if you don't understand it, no wonder you don't understand Mary Co-Redemptrix. "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:"[Col 1:24]

Do you reject this also? St. Paul's spiritual sufferings won graces for his flock; therefore, he co-operated in their redemption. Every shepherd is called to do this. Mary did it pre-eminently among creatures for all Her children. That is why God made Her our Mother.

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Mary could not even save herself, but you would have her co-redeem others

Thus, you blatantly reject Catholic Tradition that Mary is New Eve, which St. Irenaeus expresses as follows, "She became the Cause of salvation both for Herself and for the whole human race". Mary was redeemed by Christ, that She may co-operate in our Redemption.

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by a finite contribution to an infinite act, which is yet another absurdity: what is already infinite does not become more by adding anything to it.

God expects creatures to make the greatest possible recompense to Him. Mary did this at the foot of the Cross, giving a practically limitless response to His Love, greater than that which all creatures would make to Him. God did not need Her, but He used Her.

Do you respect God's choice? If Mary had not done that, many of those who will be saved would not have been. If God calls you to do something for Him, but you fail to do it, many souls who would have been saved will not be. If you do do it, those souls will be saved.

This is why St. Alphonsus writes, " A learned author concludes with a beautiful sentiment. He says that so great was the sorrow of this tender Mother in the Passion of Jesus, that she alone compassionated in a degree by any means adequate to its merits the death of a God made Man." What have the enemies of Mary Co-Redemptrix done to compassionate in any degree the death of God made Man?

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Take away Mary's sufferings and the atonement remains;

Take away Mary and you won't have Jesus. God willed to become flesh through His Mother, and to redeem us also through Her co-operation; that's why She compassionated Him all through Her Life, even before His birth of Her, by weeping over His future Redemption in Love of Him. That's why She was present at the foot of the Cross. God willed that everything be exactly contrary to how it was in Eden, which required a Man, a Woman and a Tree. Our Lord Jesus is God made Man, Mary is the Woman, the Cross is the Tree.

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add them and the atonement stays what it is.

Jesus made Condign Satisfaction for our sins. Mary made Congruous Satisfaction for them, the only one possible to a Creature. If Her sub-ordinate co-operation was not present, many souls who now are saved would not be, many graces now dispensed would not be.

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A "necessary part" which no Catholic believed for over a thousand years

St. Irenaeus, St. Damascene, St. Ildephonsus, St. Basil and countless others believed She is Queen of Martyrs and cause of our salvation, but you reject it.

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"Popes are infallible and exercise universal jurisdiction." #Things Jesus never said

Jesus Christ said He was going to St. Peter the Keys of Heaven, such that whatever he loosed and bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven. That is Universal Jurisdiction in disciplinary matters, and when applied to defining a dogma, is doctrinal infallibility in teaching.

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Mary's unique participation with and under Jesus Christ in redeeming or "buying back" humanity from the slavery of Satan and sin is present throughout Christian Tradition. For example, the 7th century Church writer, Modestus of Jerusalem, states that through Mary, we "are redeemed from the tyranny of the devil."

There is no explicit reference there to Mary, or Mary's sufferings, "buying back" anything.

Blind man. If a King and Queen came to redeem slaves from their greatest enemy, with the King suffering the most, and the Queen suffering the next most to deliver those slaves and make them children, of course the King and Queen both bought them back from sin. Here, the King is God and deserves our adoration. The Queen is His greatest creature, and deserves our complete veneration, hyperdulia.

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[5] St. John Damascene (8th century) greets her: "Hail thou, through whom we are redeemed from the curse."

Again, nothing.[/quote]

Again, you're blatantly blind. If Mary redeemed us from the curse, She is our Co-Redeemer with Christ from that curse.

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[6] St. Bernard of Clairvaux (12th century) preaches that "through her, man was redeemed." [7] The great Franciscan Doctor, St. Bonaventure (13th century), aptly summarizes Christian Tradition in this teaching: "That woman (namely Eve), drove us out of Paradise and sold us; but this one (Mary) brought us back again and bought us." [8]" http://www.religionandtheology.org/MaryAsCo-Redemptrix.html

I don't care what they said.[/quote]

Yes, that's the Truth. You don't care what Saints and Doctors, those luminous lights who attained the highest heights of sanctity and theosis, teach; because like a neo-Protestant, you've decided what you want to believe, and think you know better than all of them.

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Lulz.

Your best argument so far.

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The only human who stands between Jesus and his Church is Jesus. The Church is HIS body.

He has made Mary the Dispensatrix and Mediatrix of all His Graces, like the figurative Neck of His Mystical Body. St. Louis: "God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly. 25. God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses" https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/treatise-on-true-devotion-to-the-blessed-virgin-6064
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Statement of Theologians on Mary Co-Redemptrix, 2017.
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2019, 08:44:24 AM »
Quote from: Kreuzritter
Quote
Are you a child who loves your Mother and grieves over Her Sorrows, or one who minimizes them and thinks of them as pretty much nothing at all?

Straw man.

I get it. You're a child who wants to drive your own Swords through your Mother's Heart, by denying something Saints, Popes and Doctors have taught about Her, that brings great glory to God, and great honour to His Mother. Good luck with that.

You're ridiculous.

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True or not, it doesn't demonstrate your contention.

It certainly does. Why don't you actually do some reading yourself, of what the Saints and Doctors have written?

No, it doesn't. It doesn't follow from Mary's sufferings being greater than any other human's that Mary's sufferings are part of a "co-redemption". This is true, therefore what I said above is true.


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I'm not going to spoon feed you anymore, but I already gave you sufficient links to read from if you were interested in knowing the Truth. You can start with St. Ildephonsus, of whose writing I bet you have read nothing: "Saint Ildephonsus did not hesitate to assert, "to say that Mary's sorrows were greater than all the torments of the martyrs united, was to say too little." Read his life history and see how much the Mother of God honored him for preaching the Truth, and spreading true devotion to Her, if you have not done that before. I stand with the Saints.

Again, true or not, her sorrows being greater than all torments of the martyrs united does not demonstrate your contention of Mary being a "co-redemptrix".

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Mary, being Mediatrix of all Graces and Queen of all Martyrs, merited for us all the graces we receive and made satisfaction for our sins.

You've now crossed the line into a denial of the Gospel and Mariolatry.

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She did this in the highest degree possible to creatures, and subordinate only to Her Divine Son. That is how She is like Her Divine Son.

"The highest degree possible to creatures" being not able to make satisfaction for the least sin, decrease Hell by a single second or win a single glimpse of the vision of God.
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That is Theosis. A creature who desires union with the crucified Christ must learn to suffer like Him for the Church, as martyrs do. Mary is by Grace all that Jesus is by Nature, as Scripture calls Her the Full of Grace, just as it calls Him Full of Grace and Truth. He has divinized His Mother by placing all His gifts of Grace in Her. Therefore, by the very fact that He is Redeemer, She is Co-Redemptrix in the highest degree possible to a Creature, because She co-operated in His Redemption at the Cross more than any creature ever has.

That doesn't follow. As usual, your logic is all over the place.

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Firstly, I totally reject the Anselm's satisfaction theory of atonement

You reject everything you don't like, like a Protestant. Catholics, who revere all Tradition, not pick and choose from "sola first millenium only", do not.

No, I reject what is a clear legalistic innovation that in the Western church replaced the actual Patristic doctrine of Christus Victor and our ransoming from the Devil. Satisfaction theory, by the way, forms the basis for Protestant doctrines of the atonement that make forensic justification, the basis for sola fide, possible in the first place.


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But Mary Co-Redemptrix does not depend on any particular theory, but on St. Paul's teaching on martyrdom being satisfactory for others;

Yes, it does. It depends upon the theory of Christ's sufferings making "satisfaction" for a debt supposedly owed to God.

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if you don't understand it, no wonder you don't understand Mary Co-Redemptrix. "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:"[Col 1:24]

Do you reject this also? St. Paul's spiritual sufferings won graces for his flock; therefore, he co-operated in their redemption. Every shepherd is called to do this. Mary did it pre-eminently among creatures for all Her children. That is why God made Her our Mother.

This another apologetic method: do you dare reject even my strained interpretation of a Biblical passage?!?

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Mary could not even save herself, but you would have her co-redeem others

Thus, you blatantly reject Catholic Tradition that Mary is New Eve, which St. Irenaeus expresses as follows, "She became the Cause of salvation both for Herself and for the whole human race". Mary was redeemed by Christ, that She may co-operate in our Redemption.

Yes: Mary was redeemed by Jesus, not by herself. Mary was redeemed by Christ to co-operate in bringing God into the world of flesh, not to suffer before the cross to expiate our sins.

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by a finite contribution to an infinite act, which is yet another absurdity: what is already infinite does not become more by adding anything to it.

God expects creatures to make the greatest possible recompense to Him. Mary did this at the foot of the Cross, giving a practically limitless response to His Love, greater than that which all creatures would make to Him. God did not need Her, but He used Her.

That's not an answer.

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Do you respect God's choice? If Mary had not done that, many of those who will be saved would not have been.

Mary is accidental to our salvation, essential only to the particular way which God, by foresight, chose to go about it.


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If God calls you to do something for Him, but you fail to do it, many souls who would have been saved will not be. If you do do it, those souls will be saved.

That doesn't make me a co-redeemer.

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This is why St. Alphonsus writes, " A learned author concludes with a beautiful sentiment. He says that so great was the sorrow of this tender Mother in the Passion of Jesus, that she alone compassionated in a degree by any means adequate to its merits the death of a God made Man." What have the enemies of Mary Co-Redemptrix done to compassionate in any degree the death of God made Man?

I really don't care what Alphonsus Liguori had to say. His "Glories of Mary" is a work of blasphemous idolatry.

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Take away Mary's sufferings and the atonement remains;

Take away Mary and you won't have Jesus.

Take away Mary's sufferings and the atonement remains.

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God willed to become flesh through His Mother, and to redeem us also through Her co-operation;

Her co-operation didn't redeem us. Jesus did that at Calvary.

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that's why She compassionated Him all through Her Life, even before His birth of Her, by weeping over His future Redemption in Love of Him. That's why She was present at the foot of the Cross. God willed that everything be exactly contrary to how it was in Eden, which required a Man, a Woman and a Tree. Our Lord Jesus is God made Man, Mary is the Woman, the Cross is the Tree.

Mary co-redemptrix doesn't follow from that.

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add them and the atonement stays what it is.

Jesus made Condign Satisfaction for our sins. Mary made Congruous Satisfaction for them, the only one possible to a Creature.

Scholastic babble.

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If Her sub-ordinate co-operation was not present, many souls who now are saved would not be, many graces now dispensed would not be.

Mere assertion. And one that flies in the face of the doctrine of the super-abundance of Christ's vicarious atonement.

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A "necessary part" which no Catholic believed for over a thousand years

St. Irenaeus, St. Damascene, St. Ildephonsus, St. Basil and countless others believed She is Queen of Martyrs and cause of our salvation, but you reject it.

"Cause" of salvation in being the vessel that bore the God-man. None of them preached your idea of co-redemption or called her "co-Redemptrix".

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"Popes are infallible and exercise universal jurisdiction." #Things Jesus never said

Jesus Christ said He was going to St. Peter the Keys of Heaven, such that whatever he loosed and bound on Earth would be bound in Heaven. That is Universal Jurisdiction in disciplinary matters, and when applied to defining a dogma, is doctrinal infallibility in teaching.

"Popes are infallible and exercise universal jurisdiction." #Things Jesus never said

Quote
Quote
Mary's unique participation with and under Jesus Christ in redeeming or "buying back" humanity from the slavery of Satan and sin is present throughout Christian Tradition. For example, the 7th century Church writer, Modestus of Jerusalem, states that through Mary, we "are redeemed from the tyranny of the devil."

There is no explicit reference there to Mary, or Mary's sufferings, "buying back" anything.

Blind man.

No, I'm not blind. You're a passive-aggressive liar. The quotation says NOTHING about Mary "buying back" anything.

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If a King and Queen came to redeem slaves from their greatest enemy, with the King suffering the most, and the Queen suffering the next most to deliver those slaves and make them children, of course the King and Queen both bought them back from sin.

What? You really come up with the most off-kilter analogies. In this case, the ransom, even for the least molecule of the the slaves body, was infinite and the King paid infinitely. Nothing the Queen could pay could buy the the least part of a single slave.

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Here, the King is God and deserves our adoration. The Queen is His greatest creature, and deserves our complete veneration, hyperdulia.

That's nice.



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[5] St. John Damascene (8th century) greets her: "Hail thou, through whom we are redeemed from the curse."

Again, nothing.

Again, you're blatantly blind. If Mary redeemed us from the curse, She is our Co-Redeemer with Christ from that curse.[/quote]

a)nothing about Mary "buying back" anythign and b) nothing that prevents us from reading this in the same light as all the other ancient testimonies: we were redeemed "through" Mary in the sense that Jesus entered the world through Mary, not in the sense of your "co-Redemptrix" doctrine.

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[6] St. Bernard of Clairvaux (12th century) preaches that "through her, man was redeemed." [7] The great Franciscan Doctor, St. Bonaventure (13th century), aptly summarizes Christian Tradition in this teaching: "That woman (namely Eve), drove us out of Paradise and sold us; but this one (Mary) brought us back again and bought us." [8]" http://www.religionandtheology.org/MaryAsCo-Redemptrix.html

I don't care what they said.

Yes, that's the Truth. [/quote]

Yes, it is the truth. These are not infallible but men writing more than a millennium after the death of the Apostles, and the latter Bonaventure writing a demonstrable novelty.

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You don't care what Saints and Doctors, those luminous lights who attained the highest heights of sanctity and theosis, teach;

Here's one of your luminous lights:

"If my Redeemer rejects me on
account of my sins, and drives me from His sacred feet, I will cast
myself at those of His beloved Mother Mary, and there I will remain
prostrate until she has obtained my forgiveness ; for this Mother of
Mercy knows not, and has never known, how to do otherwise than
compassionate the miserable, and comply with the desires of the most
destitute who fly to her for succour; and therefore if not by duty, at
least by compassion, she will engage her Son to pardon me "


That's not my faith or the Gospel the Jesus I know preached.

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because like a neo-Protestant, you've decided what you want to believe, and think you know better than all of them.

I do think I actually have access to documents and technology that allows me to determine if something is a doctrinal novelty that first appears around the year X, yes.

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Lulz.

Your best argument so far.

Which is still better than any of yours.

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The only human who stands between Jesus and his Church is Jesus. The Church is HIS body.

He has made Mary the Dispensatrix and Mediatrix of all His Graces, like the figurative Neck of His Mystical Body. St. Louis: "God the Son imparted to his mother all that he gained by his life and death, namely, his infinite merits and his eminent virtues. He made her the treasurer of all his Father had given him as heritage. Through her he applies his merits to his members and through her he transmits his virtues and distributes his graces. She is his mystical channel, his aqueduct, through which he causes his mercies to flow gently and abundantly. 25. God the Holy Spirit entrusted his wondrous gifts to Mary, his faithful spouse, and chose her as the dispenser of all he possesses" https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/treatise-on-true-devotion-to-the-blessed-virgin-6064
[/quote]

You can quote all the Baroque saints you like. That's not Apostolic teaching.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 08:49:29 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Statement of Theologians on Mary Co-Redemptrix, 2017.
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2019, 02:15:28 PM »

Maximillian, the SSPX Seminary in Argentina is called Our Lady Co-Redemptrix.

I was not aware. That's very disturbing.


If you read the history, it was the traditional Fathers in the pre-Vatican II drafts who wanted the dogma of Mary Co-Redemptrix defined.

Yes, this is a good example of the failed "Let's all go back to the 1950's" approach.

My view is that if it were possible to go back to the 1950's, then 10 years later you would have Vatican II happening all over again.
 
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