Author Topic: Teqiyya of Islam  (Read 199 times)

Offline gsas

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Teqiyya of Islam
« on: September 07, 2019, 12:36:13 AM »
Teqiyya is an Islamic theological doctrine, that states, that whilst a Muslim should not lie to another Muslim, a Muslim should lie to non Muslims, and is even encouraged to do so. 

Here is the thesis.  God is a supreme being.  He makes all the rules.  Therefore God can do anything, and He won't lose.

On the other hand, the devil can lose. 

When do you need the ability to lie? When you can't lose or when you can lose?

So, as per logic, the Islamic Teqiyya is not from God, but from a power that can lose in front of God. 

Therefore Allah who employs the tactics of lies, is the other power, not God.

Your take?
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Teqiyya of Islam
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2019, 01:14:03 PM »
"[42] Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: [43] Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof." John 8
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Teqiyya of Islam
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2019, 01:56:02 PM »
Islam being the false religion that it is, contains many errors and immoralities, its inevitable.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Teqiyya of Islam
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2019, 03:38:01 PM »
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Teqiyya of Islam
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 09:03:29 PM »
Your take?

Well, besides your trolling being sub-par, I should add that the concept of taqiyya is not a simple license to lie. As often is the case, the topic is much more nuanced and balanced, failing to fit the facile rhetoric of polemicists. Simply put, in the face of the extreme circumstances of death and persecution it is permissible to lie to avoid shedding of blood or loss of property, as Al-Ghazali famously put it. But even then, martyrdom is still considered the preferable path.

For those genuinely interested in the topic, check the following articles:

1. Taqiya: Are Muslims allowed to lie for Islam?
2. Taqiyya Explained: Refuting the allegation that Muslims are allowed to lie in order to spread Islam

Quote from: Faith in Allah
However, this deception is only allowed in Islam during a declared state of war. It is a major sin for a Muslim to act treacherously or deceptively regarding covenants, peace treaties, promises, and agreements. Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا جَمَعَ اللَّهُ الأَوَّلِينَ وَالآخِرِينَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرْفَعُ لِكُلِّ غَادِرٍ لِوَاءٌ فَقِيلَ هَذِهِ غَدْرَةُ فُلاَنِ بْنِ فُلاَنٍ

When Allah gathers together the earlier and later generations on the Day of Resurrection, He will raise a banner for every treacherous person and it will be announced that this is the treachery of so-and-so the son of so-and-so. (Sahih Muslim 1735, Grade: Sahih)

This applies to non-Muslims, as the Prophet informed us that he would testify on the Day of Judgment on behalf of any peaceful non-Muslim against the Muslim who oppressed them. Sufwan ibn Salim reported: A number of the companions said the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

أَلَا مَنْ ظَلَمَ مُعَاهِدًا أَوْ انْتَقَصَهُ أَوْ كَلَّفَهُ فَوْقَ طَاقَتِهِ أَوْ أَخَذَ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا بِغَيْرِ طِيبِ نَفْسٍ فَأَنَا حَجِيجُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ

If anyone wrongs a person protected by a covenant, violates his rights, burdens him with more work than he is able to do, or takes something from him without his consent, then I will plead for him on the Day of Resurrection. (Sunan Abu Dawud 3052, Grade: Sahih)

This even applies when treachery would result in a military advantage for the Muslims. The companions of the Prophet strictly avoided treachery and dishonesty even at the expense of military or political gains. Sulaym ibn Amir reported:

There was a peace treaty between Muawiyah and the Byzantines. He was marching towards their country and when the covenant came to an end, he would attack them. A man came on a horse, saying, “Allah is Most Great! Allah is Most Great! Let there be faithfulness and not treachery!” When they looked they found that he was Amr ibn Abasah. Muawiyah sent for him and questioned him about that. He said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say:

مَنْ كَانَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ قَوْمٍ عَهْدٌ فَلَا يَحُلَّنَّ عَهْدًا وَلَا يَشُدَّنَّهُ حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ أَمَدُهُ أَوْ يَنْبِذَ إِلَيْهِمْ عَلَى سَوَاءٍ

When one has a covenant with people he must not strengthen or loosen it until its term comes to an end or he brings it to an end in agreement with them. (Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1580, Grade: Sahih)

In this example, the Prophet’s companions prevented the Caliph Mu’awiyah from marching his army toward the Romans in an attempt to surprise attack them when the peace treaty expired. Marching to war was considered an act of war that was initiated before the expiration of the treaty, so the companions protested despite the benefit they would have gained against a formidable and hostile enemy empire. Hence, Mu’awiyah returned with his armies and did not commence with his surprise attack.

As we can see, Muslims are only allowed to lie if it is necessary to protect themselves from persecution. The general rule is that a Muslim must always speak the truth even if it goes against himself, his family, or his community. Moreover, the permission for deception during a state of war is universally consistent with military tactics used by armies since antiquity unto the present, but deception in violation of peace treaties, covenants, and agreements is strictly forbidden in every circumstance.
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Offline Prayerful

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Re: Teqiyya of Islam
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 04:23:00 PM »
Your take?

Well, besides your trolling being sub-par, I should add that the concept of taqiyya is not a simple license to lie. As often is the case, the topic is much more nuanced and balanced, failing to fit the facile rhetoric of polemicists. Simply put, in the face of the extreme circumstances of death and persecution it is permissible to lie to avoid shedding of blood or loss of property, as Al-Ghazali famously put it. But even then, martyrdom is still considered the preferable path.

For those genuinely interested in the topic, check the following articles:

1. Taqiya: Are Muslims allowed to lie for Islam?
2. Taqiyya Explained: Refuting the allegation that Muslims are allowed to lie in order to spread Islam

Quote from: Faith in Allah
However, this deception is only allowed in Islam during a declared state of war. It is a major sin for a Muslim to act treacherously or deceptively regarding covenants, peace treaties, promises, and agreements. Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا جَمَعَ اللَّهُ الأَوَّلِينَ وَالآخِرِينَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرْفَعُ لِكُلِّ غَادِرٍ لِوَاءٌ فَقِيلَ هَذِهِ غَدْرَةُ فُلاَنِ بْنِ فُلاَنٍ

When Allah gathers together the earlier and later generations on the Day of Resurrection, He will raise a banner for every treacherous person and it will be announced that this is the treachery of so-and-so the son of so-and-so. (Sahih Muslim 1735, Grade: Sahih)

This applies to non-Muslims, as the Prophet informed us that he would testify on the Day of Judgment on behalf of any peaceful non-Muslim against the Muslim who oppressed them. Sufwan ibn Salim reported: A number of the companions said the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

أَلَا مَنْ ظَلَمَ مُعَاهِدًا أَوْ انْتَقَصَهُ أَوْ كَلَّفَهُ فَوْقَ طَاقَتِهِ أَوْ أَخَذَ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا بِغَيْرِ طِيبِ نَفْسٍ فَأَنَا حَجِيجُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ

If anyone wrongs a person protected by a covenant, violates his rights, burdens him with more work than he is able to do, or takes something from him without his consent, then I will plead for him on the Day of Resurrection. (Sunan Abu Dawud 3052, Grade: Sahih)

This even applies when treachery would result in a military advantage for the Muslims. The companions of the Prophet strictly avoided treachery and dishonesty even at the expense of military or political gains. Sulaym ibn Amir reported:

There was a peace treaty between Muawiyah and the Byzantines. He was marching towards their country and when the covenant came to an end, he would attack them. A man came on a horse, saying, “Allah is Most Great! Allah is Most Great! Let there be faithfulness and not treachery!” When they looked they found that he was Amr ibn Abasah. Muawiyah sent for him and questioned him about that. He said: I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say:

مَنْ كَانَ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ قَوْمٍ عَهْدٌ فَلَا يَحُلَّنَّ عَهْدًا وَلَا يَشُدَّنَّهُ حَتَّى يَمْضِيَ أَمَدُهُ أَوْ يَنْبِذَ إِلَيْهِمْ عَلَى سَوَاءٍ

When one has a covenant with people he must not strengthen or loosen it until its term comes to an end or he brings it to an end in agreement with them. (Sunan At-Tirmidhi 1580, Grade: Sahih)

In this example, the Prophet’s companions prevented the Caliph Mu’awiyah from marching his army toward the Romans in an attempt to surprise attack them when the peace treaty expired. Marching to war was considered an act of war that was initiated before the expiration of the treaty, so the companions protested despite the benefit they would have gained against a formidable and hostile enemy empire. Hence, Mu’awiyah returned with his armies and did not commence with his surprise attack.

As we can see, Muslims are only allowed to lie if it is necessary to protect themselves from persecution. The general rule is that a Muslim must always speak the truth even if it goes against himself, his family, or his community. Moreover, the permission for deception during a state of war is universally consistent with military tactics used by armies since antiquity unto the present, but deception in violation of peace treaties, covenants, and agreements is strictly forbidden in every circumstance.

I understood it as a permitted form of deceit where persecution was in prospect. This differs obviously from the Christian ideal, although a portion of Japan's hidden Christians seem to have engaged in a form of it at times, like treading on a holy image before a magistrate, which in places like the epicentre of Jerome Amakusa's Catholic and anti-tax rebellion on Kyushu island, was at times could be nearly unavoidable.
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