Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 8200 times)

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #345 on: October 08, 2019, 05:01:08 AM »
I think a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends the time praying, offering up her children and husband to God, and teaching her babies about Our Lord is getting all the graces available.

Why do you think that? 

Why don't you think that a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends all the time praying and adoring Our Lord is getting all the graces available, offering up her loved ones of course, but being able to devote ALL her attention to the very reason she is there - the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar?

Does Our Lord demand that you teach your babies about Him while at Mass?  Why do you think it is necessary to do this when you could, instead, teach them about Our Lord at some other time, leaving you free to be wholly absorbed in Him while at Mass?

Surely it should be your priority to be being entirely present for Our Lord at Mass.  Everything else flows from that.

First of all, a large portion of Mass is already dedicated to teaching people about Our Lord... see readings, gospel, sermon. My point is that when you are taking care of your children you ARE fully absorbed in Him according to your state in life. You are at mass exactly the way you are supposed to be. A nun at mass with a child is NOT, she is supposed to be at mass alone. Do you see my point? Our spiritual lives have different definitions of perfect contemplation in different seasons of our lives. A prayerful woman, modestly dressed (and I keep stressing this because I don't think an immodestly dressed women of any age or season of life is disposed to receive graces at mass, and it is important) with her children (her vocation) around her, on her lap, etc...is contemplating Our Lord in exactly the way she ought. Periods of long silence and so forth are for another season.
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #346 on: October 08, 2019, 05:03:49 AM »

for you to assume that a parent who needs to remove a child needs to "learn how to discipline" is highly uncharitable and rashly judgmental of you.

I NEVER said that. I said spending more than ten minutes outside Mass, two utterly different things. Taking a kid out, discipline, and pep talk is a two/three minutes operation. If a parent is doing this more than two or three times in mass then yes, they should focus on discipline a little more.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 05:19:30 AM by coffeeandcigarette »
 

Offline dellery

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #347 on: October 08, 2019, 07:06:52 AM »
This is all being very over thought.
Its nobody's business what parents do with their children, or where they bring them, as long as their children are not disruptive to others.

If during mass, a parent is too lazy and rude to prevent their children from disrupting others, if not EVERYBODY in the chapel for that matter, a priest should address the issue with them after mass. If the behavior continues, those in the parish should not associate with the rude disruptive parents, and use the strength of social pressure to correct their selfish behavior. Make them feel like THAT family, you know, the family that cant concern themselves with their parishioners well being, but want to be included in the parish, and enjoy all this has to offer.
"Hey, nevermind the fact that I sat idle while my shrieking 18 month old gave you a headache at mass this morning. Wanna show me that rental you were talking about? You're still deducting $100 from rent for parishioners, right?"
The Fisherman's worm.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #348 on: October 08, 2019, 07:52:45 AM »
I think a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends the time praying, offering up her children and husband to God, and teaching her babies about Our Lord is getting all the graces available.

Why do you think that? 

Why don't you think that a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends all the time praying and adoring Our Lord is getting all the graces available, offering up her loved ones of course, but being able to devote ALL her attention to the very reason she is there - the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar?

Does Our Lord demand that you teach your babies about Him while at Mass?  Why do you think it is necessary to do this when you could, instead, teach them about Our Lord at some other time, leaving you free to be wholly absorbed in Him while at Mass?

Surely it should be your priority to be being entirely present for Our Lord at Mass.  Everything else flows from that.

First of all, a large portion of Mass is already dedicated to teaching people about Our Lord... see readings, gospel, sermon. My point is that when you are taking care of your children you ARE fully absorbed in Him according to your state in life. You are at mass exactly the way you are supposed to be. A nun at mass with a child is NOT, she is supposed to be at mass alone. Do you see my point? Our spiritual lives have different definitions of perfect contemplation in different seasons of our lives. A prayerful woman, modestly dressed (and I keep stressing this because I don't think an immodestly dressed women of any age or season of life is disposed to receive graces at mass, and it is important) with her children (her vocation) around her, on her lap, etc...is contemplating Our Lord in exactly the way she ought. Periods of long silence and so forth are for another season.

Your vision of the mother at Mass - "with her children (her vocation) around her, on her lap, etc" - differs from that of the pre-Vatican II mother of a friend of mine, who went to Mass alone in order to be fully with Our Lord and couldn't bear to be distracted from the Mass even for a moment. Your vision has not always been shared by all mothers, although I expect most here would agree with you.

So why the difference?  Was my friend's pre-Vatican II mother wrong?  From the anecdotes I have heard, many pre-Vatican II mothers did not share your idea of how they should be present at Mass.  Something has clearly changed.

Your post reminds me of nmoerbeek's post.  You both seem to find it essential to be at Mass with your infants and children, as if this is the greatest expression of your vocation and your adherence to it.  But the greatest expression of your vocation, of everyone's vocation, which is to save our souls, is to adore Our Lord with every fibre of our being, even to the exclusion of everything else.  Attendance at Mass with 100% devotion, attention and stillness, was once considered more appropriate than being at Mass surrounded by distracting babies and toddlers.

The question is - why do you and nmoerbeek hold the image of the parent at Mass surrounded by his/her brood as the ideal?  And why doesn't the image of the parent who deliberately goes to Mass without accompanying infants in order to be alone and undistracted with Our Lord not appeal to you?

I blame the priests.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #349 on: October 08, 2019, 09:25:35 AM »
Many of us have given anecdotes to show that, yes, even babies and toddlers can be quiet for the duration of Mass.  Yet, awkward keeps insisting that it is impossible.  I've asked before, if the babies and toddlers are quiet, what is the problem with them being there? 

If babies and toddlers are quiet, then there is no problem with them being at Mass, or at the theatre, or at the cinema, or in a library.  Except they're not quiet, are they, which is why they are only at Mass (these days) and not the theatre, cinema or library.

I could care less if babies and toddlers are not allowed at theaters/cinemas/libraries.  Those are places of leisure and entertainment.  Nobody is required to go. For me, the issue isn't about children's rights at all.  It's about giving due worship to God, obeying God and The Church, and making sure that Catholics who have reached the age of reason are allowed access to the sacraments, including parents of young children. 

Quote
Your anecdotes are different from mine.  You keep insisting that babies and toddlers can be quiet at Mass, but do you mean YOUR babies and toddlers?  At any rate, in 20 years I have barely known it to be the case that the presence of babies and toddlers at Mass didn't inevitably result in crying and disturbance for the majority of the Mass.

Yes, my experience is different than yours.  That is correct.  Which means, your experience is not necessarily the one that applies to all and every situation.  The same applies to mine.  My experience does not negate yours and yours does not negate mine.  If your parish has a problem with noisy babies and toddlers (or even adults, for that matter), then your priest should address it.  If he refuses to, then that is another issue. He has a duty to expect due reverance at Mass, and to teach and admonish his flock about that. 

Please don't misrepresent what I said.  I never said my younger children and only my children are capable of being quiet at Mass.  Several other posters have said their children are capable, as well.  As I've said before, I've witnessed it on a regular basis from many other parents, too.  When parents teach their little ones to be quiet, then parents are able to focus their entire attention ob Mass, and not on tending to the child, because the child is quiet.  Currently, I have only 1 toddler in tow at Mass.  The others are all past toddler age.  She either sleeps on her Dad's shoulder, or sits quietly in his lap, looking at a small children's missal.  We both ignore her the whole time, in favor of paying attention to Mass.  I've seen many families accomplish this same thing, on a regular basis.

So, I keep insisting it's possible, because I've seen it in practice.  That doesn't mean where parents neglect to keep their kids quiet that it's not a problem.  It is.  I've admitted several times that if parents take their kids to Mass, then they have a serious duty to teach them how to behave.

Finally, in regards to your friend who used to leave her young children home.  I'm glad she was able to find a way to make that work for her.  Not all parents can, and that's ok.  It doesn't mean she was wrong, though.  She wasn't.  It also doesn't make those of us to do bring our children to Mass wrong, either.  I understand that we will likely just have to agree to disagree on this, though, and that is fine, too.  The Church, in her wisdom, allows for plurality of thought on certain things, and I think this is one of those issues that she allows parents the freedom to choose what is best for them.  I've yet to see arguments on either side that show me that the Church says young children are forbidden to come to Mass OR that young children have a right to be there.  From what I can tell, she is silent on the issue of bringing children to Mass, in and of itself, which means parents are allowed to decide for themselves.  She is clear that we must be quiet, though. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 09:28:57 AM by MundaCorMeum »
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #350 on: October 08, 2019, 12:53:45 PM »
This is all being very over thought.
Its nobody's business what parents do with their children, or where they bring them, as long as their children are not disruptive to others.

If during mass, a parent is too lazy and rude to prevent their children from disrupting others, if not EVERYBODY in the chapel for that matter, a priest should address the issue with them after mass. If the behavior continues, those in the parish should not associate with the rude disruptive parents, and use the strength of social pressure to correct their selfish behavior. Make them feel like THAT family, you know, the family that cant concern themselves with their parishioners well being, but want to be included in the parish, and enjoy all this has to offer.
"Hey, nevermind the fact that I sat idle while my shrieking 18 month old gave you a headache at mass this morning. Wanna show me that rental you were talking about? You're still deducting $100 from rent for parishioners, right?"

We all know THAT family...this was very funny. Thanks for a laugh.
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #351 on: October 08, 2019, 01:01:21 PM »
I think a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends the time praying, offering up her children and husband to God, and teaching her babies about Our Lord is getting all the graces available.

Why do you think that? 

Why don't you think that a women who comes, humbly, MODESTLY, and reverently to Mass, and spends all the time praying and adoring Our Lord is getting all the graces available, offering up her loved ones of course, but being able to devote ALL her attention to the very reason she is there - the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar?

Does Our Lord demand that you teach your babies about Him while at Mass?  Why do you think it is necessary to do this when you could, instead, teach them about Our Lord at some other time, leaving you free to be wholly absorbed in Him while at Mass?

Surely it should be your priority to be being entirely present for Our Lord at Mass.  Everything else flows from that.

First of all, a large portion of Mass is already dedicated to teaching people about Our Lord... see readings, gospel, sermon. My point is that when you are taking care of your children you ARE fully absorbed in Him according to your state in life. You are at mass exactly the way you are supposed to be. A nun at mass with a child is NOT, she is supposed to be at mass alone. Do you see my point? Our spiritual lives have different definitions of perfect contemplation in different seasons of our lives. A prayerful woman, modestly dressed (and I keep stressing this because I don't think an immodestly dressed women of any age or season of life is disposed to receive graces at mass, and it is important) with her children (her vocation) around her, on her lap, etc...is contemplating Our Lord in exactly the way she ought. Periods of long silence and so forth are for another season.

Your vision of the mother at Mass - "with her children (her vocation) around her, on her lap, etc" - differs from that of the pre-Vatican II mother of a friend of mine, who went to Mass alone in order to be fully with Our Lord and couldn't bear to be distracted from the Mass even for a moment. Your vision has not always been shared by all mothers, although I expect most here would agree with you.

So why the difference?  Was my friend's pre-Vatican II mother wrong?  From the anecdotes I have heard, many pre-Vatican II mothers did not share your idea of how they should be present at Mass.  Something has clearly changed.

Your post reminds me of nmoerbeek's post.  You both seem to find it essential to be at Mass with your infants and children, as if this is the greatest expression of your vocation and your adherence to it.  But the greatest expression of your vocation, of everyone's vocation, which is to save our souls, is to adore Our Lord with every fibre of our being, even to the exclusion of everything else.  Attendance at Mass with 100% devotion, attention and stillness, was once considered more appropriate than being at Mass surrounded by distracting babies and toddlers.

The question is - why do you and nmoerbeek hold the image of the parent at Mass surrounded by his/her brood as the ideal?  And why doesn't the image of the parent who deliberately goes to Mass without accompanying infants in order to be alone and undistracted with Our Lord not appeal to you?

I blame the priests.

Ugh, if you say that we find it "essential" again, I'm gonna scream. We have been down this road...no option...
You are single, your job is to save your soul. I am a mother, my vocation is to save my children's souls, by which act I will save my own. Succinct.

I find your use of the term "brood" very negative. You have repeatedly talked about how big families are "playing a demographic game" and blah blah. Do you think couples should have big families? Do you think people should get married period? Sometimes it seems like you don't think we should even exist.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #352 on: October 08, 2019, 01:10:01 PM »

for you to assume that a parent who needs to remove a child needs to "learn how to discipline" is highly uncharitable and rashly judgmental of you.

I NEVER said that. I said spending more than ten minutes outside Mass, two utterly different things. Taking a kid out, discipline, and pep talk is a two/three minutes operation. If a parent is doing this more than two or three times in mass then yes, they should focus on discipline a little more.

They are not two 'utterly different things."   Where is it written that 11 minutes with a child is proof of the mother's incompetence in discipline? You did say that more than 10 minutes was supposed proof, from your regal position, that the mother is incompetent at discipline.  You don't know that.  It depends on the child in question.  Some are unruly beyond what we would consider normal for their age.  And the point is that I speak much more from empathy than even from experience with my second child, who was more physically active than many boys her age.  So this is not about self-defense as much as defense of others and about judgments neither you nor I has divine insight to pronounce.

What you and I can say is that some parents are poor at discipline, and that weakness may be apparent in non-church environments as well, if we were to spend several days with the family. But neither you nor I can make absolutist and quantitative statements about children and parents who are strangers to us. You are setting yourself up as some absolute authority.  In the example I cited earlier -- of the large family who had not had previous problems with their young children -- I can tell you that this excellent mother for whom I have nothing but respect, often spent more than 10 minutes redirecting and calming her child outside of the pew.  Collectively, she could have spent easily 30 minutes in total at a High Mass.  Since then, nature seems to have taken over and he is much more self-controlled than he once was.
 

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #353 on: October 08, 2019, 03:24:05 PM »

for you to assume that a parent who needs to remove a child needs to "learn how to discipline" is highly uncharitable and rashly judgmental of you.

I NEVER said that. I said spending more than ten minutes outside Mass, two utterly different things. Taking a kid out, discipline, and pep talk is a two/three minutes operation. If a parent is doing this more than two or three times in mass then yes, they should focus on discipline a little more.

They are not two 'utterly different things."   Where is it written that 11 minutes with a child is proof of the mother's incompetence in discipline? You did say that more than 10 minutes was supposed proof, from your regal position, that the mother is incompetent at discipline.  You don't know that.  It depends on the child in question.  Some are unruly beyond what we would consider normal for their age.  And the point is that I speak much more from empathy than even from experience with my second child, who was more physically active than many boys her age.  So this is not about self-defense as much as defense of others and about judgments neither you nor I has divine insight to pronounce.

What you and I can say is that some parents are poor at discipline, and that weakness may be apparent in non-church environments as well, if we were to spend several days with the family. But neither you nor I can make absolutist and quantitative statements about children and parents who are strangers to us. You are setting yourself up as some absolute authority.  In the example I cited earlier -- of the large family who had not had previous problems with their young children -- I can tell you that this excellent mother for whom I have nothing but respect, often spent more than 10 minutes redirecting and calming her child outside of the pew.  Collectively, she could have spent easily 30 minutes in total at a High Mass.  Since then, nature seems to have taken over and he is much more self-controlled than he once was.

I would point out that a child who is unruly beyond what is considered normal has not had enough discipline, and needs more, especially more CONSISTENT discipline.

There are way way too many parents who talk about how they have tried "everything" and their child is still unruly. It is like the fat lady who goes on Biggest Loser claiming that she has tried "every diet" and nothing works. Miraculously when she starts working out and eating smaller portions loses 5/6 pounds a week. I have never met one of these mysterious unruly children who do not respond to CONSISTENT discipline. Now, that being said, I have gone through periods in my life when, because of illness, pregnancy homeshooling, etc, I haven't had time to really focus on discipline and I have paid for it. You can see the difference in a matter of days when you let the ball drop. I would never blame a mom for dropping the ball a little. I GET IT. I am just saying, that if a mother is having a very hard time with Mass, and the child is truly disrupting the majority of Mass, then focus on discipline.

P.S. When I was a young mother, and even now, I have never had a problem seeking out mentorship from older more experienced mothers. I have always valued and learned a lot from these women. I couldn't put a value on some of the talks, guidance, etc. Why is it that when a mother gives some advice about discipline, or anything else, it is considered so "judgemental." I am speaking from long years of experience. There is no need to get in a huff. Like every bit of advice in the world, some will take it, some won't. Nothing applies to everyone equally. I have seen many many "problem children" or "temperamental" children  become calm, obedient, and much happier as a result of good discipline. I think people (myself very much included) do a huge disservice to their children when they neglect really good discipline. You short change yourself and your child. Anyway...that's all about discipline, really, it was just a little suggestion that might make Mass easier.
 
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #354 on: October 08, 2019, 06:23:26 PM »
Just noting that from her posts I gather that Miriam's children are all adults.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #355 on: October 08, 2019, 08:53:26 PM »
Ugh, if you say that we find it "essential" again, I'm gonna scream. We have been down this road...no option...
You are single, your job is to save your soul. I am a mother, my vocation is to save my children's souls, by which act I will save my own. Succinct.

Yet another outburst from a wounded ego, just like so many others on this thread.  You say I have a "job" but you have a "vocation".  This is despite the fact that the Church considers the single life to be a vocation.  What arrogance. 

It's not entirely your fault. You have been encouraged by misguided, spineless priests to believe that you belong to a special category of Catholic who is going to save the Church - the Traditional Catholic Family who must be appeased by lesser Catholics like me.  This probably explains your selfish and angry responses on this thread to any challenge to this absurd fantasy.

And enough of your "ughs". Most Trads I am familiar with live in cities or close to them. They have a number of TLMs to choose from which are 1hr or less away.  And they have family support nearby.  And they still insist on taking their babies and toddlers to Mass.  You live miles away from everything.  Who's problem is that, exactly?

I've sorry I don't agree with the elevated role you have been foolishly allocated and which you obviously embrace.  It must be hard to have your ego bubble pricked.

You have my sympathies.

But like so many other posters on this thread, you haven't a clue what's been lost.  There are exceptions, thank goodness, but as usual, those who insist that babies and toddlers should be at Mass always shout the loudest.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
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Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #356 on: October 08, 2019, 09:09:00 PM »
Quote
You say I have a "job" but you have a "vocation".  This is despite the fact that the Church considers the single life to be a vocation.

This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #357 on: October 08, 2019, 09:39:44 PM »
Quote
You say I have a "job" but you have a "vocation".  This is despite the fact that the Church considers the single life to be a vocation.

This may very well be opening another can of worms, but....technically, the traditional teaching is that neither marriage nor single life is a vocation.  They are states in life that one may choose, if they are not called to either the vocations of the priesthood or religious life:

https://catholicism.org/is-marriage-a-vocation.html

Thank you.

It was the pulling of rank that annoyed me.  But I suppose if people are willing to let a baby or toddler dictate how much attention they give to Our Lord at Mass, then ranks and their various designations can't mean much.

Babies and toddlers rule at Mass now, and we must all know our place.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #358 on: October 08, 2019, 09:50:25 PM »
Hey why not open another can of worms.  She's already got the record for the longest derailment of a thread in the forums history.  By just continually repeating herself to boot.  All she is doing is continually trying to push buttons.  You should just ignore her so this stupid thread can die.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #359 on: October 08, 2019, 10:05:27 PM »
Hey why not open another can of worms.  She's already got the record for the longest derailment of a thread in the forums history.  By just continually repeating herself to boot.  All she is doing is continually trying to push buttons.  You should just ignore her so this stupid thread can die.

So why don't you lead by example and stop posting your nasty comments?  Because I'm not going to stop responding to the bile you and others keep directing at me.

On two occasions I have been ready to stop posting on this thread and, after a day or two, there's been another bunch of posts which insult me and misrepresent what I have said in true toddler tantrum like fashion.  And these will usually include an especially nasty post by you.

So go on then.. off you go, you unbearably unpleasant man?

Be the beginning of the end that you wish to see and depart now.

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.