Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 5504 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2019, 03:08:18 PM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)

A curmudgeon like myself!  And you think this kind of nastiness is a good advertisement for Tradition.  Not to mention the rest of the vicious comments above.

It's no use promising reverence and holiness and in practice providing noise and commotion.  Some would call that being less than honest.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline ermy_law

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2019, 03:38:19 PM »
The only Latin Mass in Metro Atlanta is about thirty minutes away.  I have never been to one.  I hate to leave my home Church but I am giving it some thought.  Am I over reacting?  Do they get into hand holding and pass the peace in the Latin mass?

Thanks,
2t

I used to live in Macon, Georgia, about 1.5 hours south of Atlanta. When we lived there, we drove to the FSSP parish in Mableton and to the SSPX chapel in Roswell. We rented a hotel and stayed in Atlanta during Holy Week.

Thirty minutes isn't that far. Make the drive.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2019, 04:36:40 PM »

The first Mass wasn't the Last Supper, that's a prefiguring. The real first Mass was the Crucifixion, that's why the Mass is called the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary, not the Last Supper.


The Catholic teaching I know is that the Last Supper was the first Mass.  The Crucifixion was the BLOODY Sacrifice of Calvary.  The Mass is the one and the same sacrifice, but re-presented in an UNBLOODY manner.  The Last Supper was the first Mass, the UNBLOODY Sacrifice, with the Consecration and Transubstantiation.  There was no Transubstantiation in the Bloody Sacrifice of Calvary. I think you might say that the Last Supper was the unbloody PRE-presentation of the bloody Sacrifice of Calvary (this just occurs to me).  Notice how the Consecration says that  Christ's blood "SHALL be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins" - at the Last Supper the Crucifixion had not yet taken place.  The Mass today, while it is also the same sacrifice as the one at Calvary, uses the words of the Last Supper.

Obviously there is mystery here, and I am not positive that I am presenting this in the perfect theological way, but this is how I understand it.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2019, 04:41:40 PM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)

A curmudgeon like myself!  And you think this kind of nastiness is a good advertisement for Tradition.  Not to mention the rest of the vicious comments above.

It's no use promising reverence and holiness and in practice providing noise and commotion.  Some would call that being less than honest.

Meh, you shot the first arrow !

That being said I do enjoy a curmudgeon vent 😉
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2019, 05:50:18 PM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)

A curmudgeon like myself!  And you think this kind of nastiness is a good advertisement for Tradition.  Not to mention the rest of the vicious comments above.

It's no use promising reverence and holiness and in practice providing noise and commotion.  Some would call that being less than honest.

Meh, you shot the first arrow !

That being said I do enjoy a curmudgeon vent 😉

You enjoy venting at 'curmudgeons'.

So tell me, is there part of you that enjoys the disturbance and distress to 'curmudgeons' that your babies and toddlers cause when they kick off during Mass?  Do you enjoy the power, even just a little bit?

There are people who let their children rampage about in public places - restaurants, cafes, art galleries etc - because they enjoy the annoyance to others that it causes.  Yes, there really are people like that.

And anyone who objects, even a young person, is accused of being a nasty, twisted, child-hater.  It's the perfect cover.

How strange that this response is so prevalent here.

Perhaps it explains the vitriol.  There's secret malice behind it.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2019, 06:05:25 PM »
Well you know they home school, travel far, and probably don't feed the poor kids. With all that sacrifice why should they miss a moment?

You're onto something here.  It certainly explains their sense of entitlement.

Indeed.  Parents who fulfill their Sunday obligation and educate their children are clearly not feeding them.  It makes perfect logical sense   ::)
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2019, 06:11:56 PM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)

A curmudgeon like myself!  And you think this kind of nastiness is a good advertisement for Tradition.  Not to mention the rest of the vicious comments above.

It's no use promising reverence and holiness and in practice providing noise and commotion.  Some would call that being less than honest.

Meh, you shot the first arrow !

That being said I do enjoy a curmudgeon vent 😉

You enjoy venting at 'curmudgeons'.

So tell me, is there part of you that enjoys the disturbance and distress to 'curmudgeons' that your babies and toddlers cause when they kick off during Mass?  Do you enjoy the power, even just a little bit?

There are people who let their children rampage about in public places - restaurants, cafes, art galleries etc - because they enjoy the annoyance to others that it causes.  Yes, there really are people like that.

And anyone who objects, even a young person, is accused of being a nasty, twisted, child-hater.  It's the perfect cover.

How strange that this response is so prevalent here.

Perhaps it explains the vitriol.  There's secret malice behind it.

No, she did not say she enjoys venting at curmudgeons.  I think you misunderstood what she was saying.  She said she enjoys hearing curmudgeons vent. 

As for the rest, it is rash judgment.  There is no secret malice behind many, if not most, parents who take their children to Mass.  For most of us, our intention is not even close to taking enjoyment in allowing our children to be disruptive.  Many of us work extremely hard to teach our children proper behavior in ALL places - in private and public alike.  Many of us take our duty as parents very seriously, though none of us are perfect, of course, and we make mistakes just like everyone else. Anecdotes of the opposite do not apply across the board, which is how you are making it sound. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 06:53:59 PM by MundaCorMeum »
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2019, 06:50:21 PM »
Bro, did you even read my post?

Are the Eastern Catholics inferior spiritually because they allow infants to commune?

Yes.

No.  But I'm not sure why your question is relevant to the discussion.  At any rate, in the Western Church the practice fell out of favour.  According to the Council of Trent -

Quote
The same holy council teaches that little children who have not attained the use of reason are not by any necessity bound to the sacramental communion of the Eucharist; for having been regenerated by the laver of baptism and thereby incorporated with Christ, they cannot at that age lose the grace of the sons of God already acquired. Antiquity is not therefore to be condemned, however, if in some places it at one time observed that custom. For just as those most holy Fathers had acceptable ground for what they did under the circumstances, so it is certainly to be accepted without controversy that they regarded it as not necessary to salvation.
— Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, chap. iv

What's more -

Quote
If anyone says that communion of the Eucharist is necessary for little children before they have attained the years of discretion, let him be anathema.
— Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, can. iv

This has completely nothing to do with taking children to Mass.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline mikemac

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2019, 07:00:46 PM »
So 2Towers, welcome to awkwardcustomer's whine and cheese party.  I think he actually believes that there was never ever a child present at a Mass for 1965 years before the Second Vatican Council.  That is how ridiculous his whine is.  Please forgive the derailing of your thread.

I would certainly travel the 30 minutes every Sunday to go to the TLM if I were you.  I'm sure you will be glad you did.

By the way, welcome to the forum.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2019, 08:02:04 PM »
What you're saying is that anyone who questions your right to destroy the beautiful silence of the Mass must be old, bitter and nasty.

Holiness and charity in a nutshell.

Actually I'm making distinctions, something nasty/bitter people don't.

You used the Last Supper as an example - FAIL
You said children screaming is normal - FAIL
You said parents treat it as toddler practice - FAIL
You quote Trent as a straw man - FAIL
Now you say I'm against silence - FAIL

I was a monk as a young man. When I want silence I get silence. Our Lord tells us to go to desert for it, or we call it a retreat.

You're like that battle ax who lives in an apartment with parents who have kids upset with every noise when if you were really serious about "silence" they'd live next to a monastery.

It's Scooby-Doo all over again: "If it wasn't for those pesky kids I would have reached ecstasy." It's alright, I have your mask over here when you want it back.
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2019, 08:15:25 PM »

The first Mass wasn't the Last Supper, that's a prefiguring. The real first Mass was the Crucifixion, that's why the Mass is called the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary, not the Last Supper.


The Catholic teaching I know is that the Last Supper was the first Mass.  The Crucifixion was the BLOODY Sacrifice of Calvary.  The Mass is the one and the same sacrifice, but re-presented in an UNBLOODY manner.  The Last Supper was the first Mass, the UNBLOODY Sacrifice, with the Consecration and Transubstantiation.  There was no Transubstantiation in the Bloody Sacrifice of Calvary. I think you might say that the Last Supper was the unbloody PRE-presentation of the bloody Sacrifice of Calvary (this just occurs to me).  Notice how the Consecration says that  Christ's blood "SHALL be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins" - at the Last Supper the Crucifixion had not yet taken place.  The Mass today, while it is also the same sacrifice as the one at Calvary, uses the words of the Last Supper.

Obviously there is mystery here, and I am not positive that I am presenting this in the perfect theological way, but this is how I understand it.

The true sacrifice was a prefigurement to the actual sacrifice. The Last Supper is the 1st Mass but only as an unbloody sacrifice of what was to come of the True Sacrifice. The "this is my body" which will shall be given up for you is the Crucifixion. The Last Supper has meaning only through the Crucifixion.

Passover is an "anamnesis" which literally means recollection of past events, but truly it was the full embodiment of living what was lived in the past as to be lived now through a full recollection of the totality of the experience. The anamnesis of the New Testament is True Sacrifice of Calvary. We don't "remember" it literally, it's the anamnesis, the living as if it were true today. We don't just pray the Mass, we live it as if it were happening in real time with Christ. I had a great professor who explained it to me for an hour. It was beautiful.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 03:57:05 PM by bigbadtrad »
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2019, 08:31:31 PM »

The first Mass wasn't the Last Supper, that's a prefiguring. The real first Mass was the Crucifixion, that's why the Mass is called the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary, not the Last Supper.


The Catholic teaching I know is that the Last Supper was the first Mass.  The Crucifixion was the BLOODY Sacrifice of Calvary.  The Mass is the one and the same sacrifice, but re-presented in an UNBLOODY manner.  The Last Supper was the first Mass, the UNBLOODY Sacrifice, with the Consecration and Transubstantiation.  There was no Transubstantiation in the Bloody Sacrifice of Calvary. I think you might say that the Last Supper was the unbloody PRE-presentation of the bloody Sacrifice of Calvary (this just occurs to me).  Notice how the Consecration says that  Christ's blood "SHALL be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins" - at the Last Supper the Crucifixion had not yet taken place.  The Mass today, while it is also the same sacrifice as the one at Calvary, uses the words of the Last Supper.

Obviously there is mystery here, and I am not positive that I am presenting this in the perfect theological way, but this is how I understand it.

It's the true sacrifice was a prefigurement to the actual sacrifice. The Last Supper is the 1st Mass but only as an unbloody sacrifice of what was to come of the True Sacrifice. The "this is my body" which will shall be given up for you is the Crucifixion. The Last Supper has meaning only through the Crucifixion.

Passover is an "anamnesis" which literally means recollection of past events, but truly it was the full embodiment of living what was lived in the past as to be lived now through a full recollection of the totality of the experience. The anamnesis of the New Testament is True Sacrifice of Calvary. We don't "remember" it literally, it's the anamnesis, the living as if it were true today. We don't just pray the Mass, we live it as if it were happening in real time with Christ. I had a great professor who explained it to me for an hour. It was beautiful.

"Why is this night different from all other nights?" ... :)

Indeed.

Calvary is truly the crux of history. All flowed to it, and all flows from it. Without Calvary, we'd have only bread and wine. With Calvary, as mystically, truly enacted/prefigured at the Last Supper, we have the Eucharist.

Your professor didn't happen to be Dr. Pitre, was he?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 08:36:46 PM by Gardener »
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2019, 09:23:55 PM »
Bro, did you even read my post?

Are the Eastern Catholics inferior spiritually because they allow infants to commune?

Yes.

No.  But I'm not sure why your question is relevant to the discussion.  At any rate, in the Western Church the practice fell out of favour.  According to the Council of Trent -

Quote
The same holy council teaches that little children who have not attained the use of reason are not by any necessity bound to the sacramental communion of the Eucharist; for having been regenerated by the laver of baptism and thereby incorporated with Christ, they cannot at that age lose the grace of the sons of God already acquired. Antiquity is not therefore to be condemned, however, if in some places it at one time observed that custom. For just as those most holy Fathers had acceptable ground for what they did under the circumstances, so it is certainly to be accepted without controversy that they regarded it as not necessary to salvation.
— Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, chap. iv

What's more -

Quote
If anyone says that communion of the Eucharist is necessary for little children before they have attained the years of discretion, let him be anathema.
— Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, can. iv

I'll be more convinced if you can pull a section from Trent which forbids children from attending Mass.
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2019, 03:11:48 AM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)

A curmudgeon like myself!  And you think this kind of nastiness is a good advertisement for Tradition.  Not to mention the rest of the vicious comments above.

It's no use promising reverence and holiness and in practice providing noise and commotion.  Some would call that being less than honest.

Meh, you shot the first arrow !

That being said I do enjoy a curmudgeon vent 😉

You enjoy venting at 'curmudgeons'.

So tell me, is there part of you that enjoys the disturbance and distress to 'curmudgeons' that your babies and toddlers cause when they kick off during Mass?  Do you enjoy the power, even just a little bit?

There are people who let their children rampage about in public places - restaurants, cafes, art galleries etc - because they enjoy the annoyance to others that it causes.  Yes, there really are people like that.

And anyone who objects, even a young person, is accused of being a nasty, twisted, child-hater.  It's the perfect cover.

How strange that this response is so prevalent here.

Perhaps it explains the vitriol.  There's secret malice behind it.

Its called  ' lightening the mood' and I said it to take the sting out of the bitterness in your posts in a thread by a possible newcomer and maybe to show that the op shouldn't take what you say too seriously.

You forget Awkward, I have the same noise sensitivity as you (previous thread on this topic) and I understand what it does to you but I don't believe I am entitled to complete silence at mass and I have a far more realistic perception of what constitutes outright disturbance compared to an acceptable range of basic noise.  Add to that I can see that parents ARE actually very understanding and do their best to remove an over fussy child.  Your perception is way off , the problem is YOU.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2019, 06:05:54 AM »
What you're saying is that anyone who questions your right to destroy the beautiful silence of the Mass must be old, bitter and nasty.

Holiness and charity in a nutshell.

Actually I'm making distinctions, something nasty/bitter people don't.

You used the Last Supper as an example - FAIL
You said children screaming is normal - FAIL
You said parents treat it as toddler practice - FAIL
You quote Trent as a straw man - FAIL
Now you say I'm against silence - FAIL

I was a monk as a young man. When I want silence I get silence. Our Lord tells us to go to desert for it, or we call it a retreat.

You're like that battle ax who lives in an apartment with parents who have kids upset with every noise when if you were really serious about "silence" they'd live next to a monastery.

It's Scooby-Doo all over again: "If it wasn't for those pesky kids I would have reached ecstasy." It's alright, I have your mask over here when you want it back.

Thank you for demonstrating yet again the charity and holiness of the Trad parent.

I picked your post to respond to, out of all the other holy and charitable posts, because it contains this statement by you and I wanted to point out how perceptive and intelligent you are.

You said this.

Quote
You're like that battle ax who lives in an apartment with parents who have kids upset with every noise when if you were really serious about "silence" they'd live next to a monastery.

Why did I pick this?  Because I actually do live in an apartment building with lots of parents with kids and have never had a problem with this.  In fact, I love my apartment building.

I had to laugh at your ridiculous caricature.  You people should get out more.  Your immaturity is showing.

You also said this.

Quote
You said parents treat it as toddler practice.

I was only repeating what posters on another thread said - that taking toddlers to Mass was necessary in order to teach them how to behave at Mass. Parents taking toddlers to Mass in order to teach them how to behave at Mass sounds as if they're treating the Mass as a toddler training class, which they are.

If you don't like the idea, take it up with them. 

Meanwhile, thank you again for your charity and holiness.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 06:14:38 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.