Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 5686 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2019, 08:50:57 AM »
Trads demonstrate their love of the traditional Mass by wrecking its beautiful silence.

And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2019, 08:55:13 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
Yup. And it seems to me that most are so hardcore for the Mass that they wouldn't even think of missing a minute or two by taking their child out to the vestibule for a spell. Even if it wrecks a beautiful and quiet Low Mass for everyone else.

Beautiful and quiet Low Masses are largely a thing of the past.  They can be found but they are rare indeed.

I'm not sure what kind of devotion to the Mass this demonstrates.
Well you know they home school, travel far, and probably don't feed the poor kids. With all that sacrifice why should they miss a moment?
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2019, 09:20:26 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?

Bro, did you even read my post?

Are the Eastern Catholics inferior spiritually because they allow infants to commune?
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2019, 09:37:42 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
Yup. And it seems to me that most are so hardcore for the Mass that they wouldn't even think of missing a minute or two by taking their child out to the vestibule for a spell. Even if it wrecks a beautiful and quiet Low Mass for everyone else.

Low Masses weren't even intended for the laity, from what I understand.  They were originally designed for monestaries, so multiple Masses could be said at once at various altars in the same place. 

Ideally, the most pleasing form of worship to God on Sundays is the sung High Mass.  Low Masses are done when High Mass can't be done for some reason. 

Also, the Mass isn't about us or our enjoyment of it, nor do our preferences for how it's done matter one bit.  The only thing that matters is that worship be given to God in the way that is most pleasing to Him.  The Mass is all about Him.  It's a NO innovation to have the idea that Mass should be pleasing to the people and all about accommodating the congregation.  Parents still have an obligation under the 10 commandments to assist at Holy Mass on Sundays and Holy Days; having  children does not abrogate them from that duty, and as it's a mortal sin to skip Mass without grave reason....

Our Lord was quite specific in the gospel about how he felt about children, as St. Justin pointed out earlier.  So, it's safe to assume that children at Mass is not displeasing to Our Lord.  If parents fail to take disruptive children out, then the parish priest should address it accordingly.  All the parents I go to Mass with do their best to keep their kids quiet, or step out with a child if they are disruptive.  Your mileage may vary, of course. 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:43:14 AM by MundaCorMeum »
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2019, 09:41:56 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
Yup. And it seems to me that most are so hardcore for the Mass that they wouldn't even think of missing a minute or two by taking their child out to the vestibule for a spell. Even if it wrecks a beautiful and quiet Low Mass for everyone else.

Beautiful and quiet Low Masses are largely a thing of the past.  They can be found but they are rare indeed.

I'm not sure what kind of devotion to the Mass this demonstrates.
Well you know they home school, travel far, and probably don't feed the poor kids. With all that sacrifice why should they miss a moment?

This is just rude and blatantly false.  I don't know any traditional Catholic parent who neglects to feed their children, or thinks that their privalege to participate in Mass is higher than anyone else's.

Many if us do homeschool and travel far for Mass, though.  I will grant you that one.  Although, lots and lots of people travel far distances for Sunday Mass, regardless of if they have children or not.  I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of eggs in China, though. 
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2019, 09:51:42 AM »

The first Mass wasn't the Last Supper, that's a prefiguring. The real first Mass was the Crucifixion, that's why the Mass is called the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary, not the Last Supper. How quiet was it there? Yet saints were made. People crying, Our Lord wincing in pain, and Our Lady weeping, soldiers laughing in derision, and yes babies crying, "Do not weep for me but for your children."

The only people who believe what you say are bitter, nasty people who hold families in scorn thinking that "if only those nasty kids weren't here we'd all be in ecstasy."  You're just giving the caricature of nasty older people who hate families and stare at every yawn or sneeze a child makes. Yup, I know your kind well.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:58:45 AM by bigbadtrad »
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2019, 10:11:40 AM »
The apost;es were rebuked for just such an attitude.

Matthew 19:13 *Then were little children presented to him, that he should lay his hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said to them: *Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

And yet there is a striking absence of babies and toddlers at the most sacred and significant events of Christ's Ministry.

Were there little children at the Last Supper?

The Mass is not a toddler training class.

You get an award for misleading.

No one thinks it's toddler training. The 1st Joyful Mysteries are all about children, the Sorrowful were mostly the middle of the night, and ones that weren't had children present.

Both the East and West had infant Holy Communion for centuries as TheReturnofLive points out, and do you think with all of the children receiving from baptism their whole lives churches were quiet? Unless you expect a woman not to go to Mass for 20 years they usually had kids for 20 years. If you think this was normal give me some history of woman missing Mass for 20 years.

I don't remember Our Lord saying the Church was for adults only but I do remember Him saying not to stop the children from coming to Him. You have a strange way of twisting Our Lord, history, and reality.

Several people have pointed out your caricature but of course your bitterness has no limit. My guess is you've stared down so many people and get upset when they look back at you as if your kingdom was violated. You're so bitter you use the Last Supper as a litmus test when Calvary is what Mass is. You've confused Catholicism for a hermitage.

This is how we should think of children:
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2019, 12:07:37 PM »
I really think in addition to what was said about the origin of low Masses. I think it really came about when the Priest started saying multiple Masses and it was hard on them to do multiple High Masses. Also early morning Masses or laborers etc.
I love a low Mass as I can focus on the Mass and not some choir member who can't sing or someone swinging an incensor around.
 
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Offline Ascetik

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2019, 01:06:31 PM »
Stop going to the Novus Ordo. There is an FSSP in Mableton or the SSPX in Roswell. Take your pick. I used to commute 45 minutes one way to mass multiple times a week. 30 minutes is nothing.

I have been to both parishes, they're both great, but the FSSP has a lot more young people and young families than St. Michael's in Roswell.
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2019, 01:23:17 PM »
I posted this painting a while ago.

Many kids..

 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2019, 01:41:09 PM »
There is no hand holding, clapping or anything charismatic like in the Latin mass.  It is quiet and for the most part people have either heads down in prayer or face forward looking at the priest.  I've been to masses where kids have fallen or somebody has knocked over a walking stick and not one head has turned around to see what was the kerfuffle. Mid week mass is even quieter.  NO mass is so full of noise and babble I can never get to finish a Hail Mary never mind actually concentrate on Our Lord in the Tabernacle and I find my mind is muddled/agitated after attending.
Most definitely you will not hear or see anything about LGBTQ issues except solid Catholic doctrine in relation to sin.

So you prefer NO? [which is fine if you can find one you like.  I never accept our Lord in the hand even at NO]

God no, I do not like it but funerals and baptisms are par for the course here.
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2019, 01:52:56 PM »
There is a real sense of deja Vu going on here.

Really awkward  if you want adults only at mass you're scaring off one adult who is contemplating about going!!
You have a responsibility for the good of souls to act prudently and using this thread as an opportunity to vent your pet hates is not charitable.
Who knows, the op maybe another curmudgeon like yourself in relation to kids at mass but give em a chance to find the mass first and find out  :)
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2019, 02:35:25 PM »
Bro, did you even read my post?

Are the Eastern Catholics inferior spiritually because they allow infants to commune?

Yes.

No.  But I'm not sure why your question is relevant to the discussion.  At any rate, in the Western Church the practice fell out of favour.  According to the Council of Trent -

Quote
The same holy council teaches that little children who have not attained the use of reason are not by any necessity bound to the sacramental communion of the Eucharist; for having been regenerated by the laver of baptism and thereby incorporated with Christ, they cannot at that age lose the grace of the sons of God already acquired. Antiquity is not therefore to be condemned, however, if in some places it at one time observed that custom. For just as those most holy Fathers had acceptable ground for what they did under the circumstances, so it is certainly to be accepted without controversy that they regarded it as not necessary to salvation.
 Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, chap. iv

What's more -

Quote
If anyone says that communion of the Eucharist is necessary for little children before they have attained the years of discretion, let him be anathema.
 Council of Trent, Sess. XXI, can. iv
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2019, 02:40:33 PM »
The only people who believe what you say are bitter, nasty people who hold families in scorn thinking that "if only those nasty kids weren't here we'd all be in ecstasy."  You're just giving the caricature of nasty older people who hate families and stare at every yawn or sneeze a child makes. Yup, I know your kind well.

What you're saying is that anyone who questions your right to destroy the beautiful silence of the Mass must be old, bitter and nasty.

Holiness and charity in a nutshell.

 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 02:58:55 PM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2019, 02:56:50 PM »
Well you know they home school, travel far, and probably don't feed the poor kids. With all that sacrifice why should they miss a moment?

You're onto something here.  It certainly explains their sense of entitlement.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.