Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 9097 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2019, 05:57:45 PM »
The apost;es were rebuked for just such an attitude.

Matthew 19:13 *Then were little children presented to him, that he should lay his hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said to them: *Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

And yet there is a striking absence of babies and toddlers at the most sacred and significant events of Christ's Ministry.

Were there little children at the Last Supper?

The Mass is not a toddler training class.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2019, 06:01:41 PM »
Most traditional Masses are quiet worldwide. You won't have any problem kneeling, praying, and thanking God for his grace to attend.

If there is a child screaming, which does happen on occasion, it's not a Novus Ordo irreverence but a family trying to raise their kids.

Awkward's categorization is incredibly rare. Most parents who have kids usually take their kids out of church if they act up.

You know this isn't true.  Why pretend?

It's no use promising Catholics the reverence and holiness of the true Mass when the reality of the typical (particularly) Sunday TLM is so very different.

I agree that not everyone minds the noise.  But many do.  They tend not to say anything and grit their teeth - or leave - because of the vitriol that inevitably results.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2019, 06:06:43 PM »
The apost;es were rebuked for just such an attitude.

Matthew 19:13 *Then were little children presented to him, that he should lay his hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said to them: *Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

And yet there is a striking absence of babies and toddlers at the most sacred and significant events of Christ's Ministry.

Were there little children at the Last Supper?

The Mass is not a toddler training class.

Except when it was, and still is; as back in the day in the Roman Church, infants would receive Confirmation after Baptism and would also, thus, receive Communion.

Just read "Francis of Assisi: A New Biography" by Augustine Thompson; he was Baptized and Confirmed by the Bishop during the Easter Vigil, and received Communion that same day.

This is reflected in all the Eastern Rites which do the same thing. Indeed, Confirmation as a Sacrament for "those who hit the age of reason," completely separate from Baptism, was a novelty in the Roman Rite.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:19:57 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2019, 06:19:23 PM »
The apost;es were rebuked for just such an attitude.

Matthew 19:13 *Then were little children presented to him, that he should lay his hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said to them: *Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

And yet there is a striking absence of babies and toddlers at the most sacred and significant events of Christ's Ministry.

Were there little children at the Last Supper?

The Mass is not a toddler training class.

The only people attending The Last Supper were Christ and his Apostles (bishops). There weren't any laity there.... regardless of age.

Also, one of the joyful mysteries is the finding of the child Jesus in the temple.  Christ was also an infant at the Nativity.  Those were significant and sacred events of His life.  I assume there were children His first miracle, as well
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:22:58 PM by MundaCorMeum »
 

Offline 2Towers

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2019, 06:27:02 PM »
If transportation is an issue, contact the parish and see if they have any parishioners who are near your current location -- they almost certainly do. They might be able to arrange some rides for you to check it out.

I met a guy today after Mass who drives with his family 90 minutes to get to the parish.

Only hands I see being held at the TLM are those of little kids trying to escape the pews.

Don't try to "understand" the Mass (who can? It's a mystery!), but rather focus on praying it as best as possible.

Thanks!  I guess that brings up another good question, I think they have missiles that have Latin on one side, English on the other.  I wonder if most folks even try to learn liturgical Latin or just memorize the transliteration sounds.
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Offline 2Towers

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2019, 06:35:12 PM »
There is no hand holding, clapping or anything charismatic like in the Latin mass.  It is quiet and for the most part people have either heads down in prayer or face forward looking at the priest.  I've been to masses where kids have fallen or somebody has knocked over a walking stick and not one head has turned around to see what was the kerfuffle. Mid week mass is even quieter.  NO mass is so full of noise and babble I can never get to finish a Hail Mary never mind actually concentrate on Our Lord in the Tabernacle and I find my mind is muddled/agitated after attending.
Most definitely you will not hear or see anything about LGBTQ issues except solid Catholic doctrine in relation to sin.

So you prefer NO? [which is fine if you can find one you like.  I never accept our Lord in the hand even at NO]
The Kingdom of hope, knows no winter.
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Offline 2Towers

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2019, 06:48:53 PM »
Crying babies are rare at my church.  I never gave it much thought.  Maybe they don't go to the vigil.  There is an autistic kid /CP who shrieks some, but that doesn't bother me as I am a sped teacher.

The business with the hands is what really bothers me, and the clapping.  If people try to say hello during the "greet your neighbor" phase I am of course polite, but I don't turn around.  If someone "jets" over to me before the Lord's prayer, I don't refuse, it just annoys me.  The name tags and an evening with Fr. Martin were really the last straw. 
The Kingdom of hope, knows no winter.
-Daniel SG-1
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2019, 07:13:11 PM »
If transportation is an issue, contact the parish and see if they have any parishioners who are near your current location -- they almost certainly do. They might be able to arrange some rides for you to check it out.

I met a guy today after Mass who drives with his family 90 minutes to get to the parish.

Only hands I see being held at the TLM are those of little kids trying to escape the pews.

Don't try to "understand" the Mass (who can? It's a mystery!), but rather focus on praying it as best as possible.

Thanks!  I guess that brings up another good question, I think they have missiles that have Latin on one side, English on the other.  I wonder if most folks even try to learn liturgical Latin or just memorize the transliteration sounds.

It's really up to you. Follow in the missal with rabid attention or just simply follow Christ to Calvary and watch as He offers Himself to the Father for your sins. Or pay attention to the Missal at certain parts (hint: the bells are there for a reason -- to clue in the laity something extra important is about to happen).

My advice is to not worry about the missal at first. It will be a frustration and distraction from what is occurring.

Just go. Pray. That is actual participation in Mass.
LENT: Sunday only

"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.

Woe is me, because I have held my peace. Isaiah 6
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2019, 07:21:53 PM »
I actually prefer to just look at the crucifix and pray silently as Mass is being offered, and sing when the choir sings.  The missal is helpful when my mind can't sit still and focus, which is more often than not, honestly.  But, ideally, I would just kneel and adore Our Lord the whole time, sans missal.
 
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Offline Flick

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2019, 08:10:22 PM »
Most traditional Masses are quiet worldwide. You won't have any problem kneeling, praying, and thanking God for his grace to attend.

If there is a child screaming, which does happen on occasion, it's not a Novus Ordo irreverence but a family trying to raise their kids.

Awkward's categorization is incredibly rare. Most parents who have kids usually take their kids out of church if they act up.

You know this isn't true.  Why pretend?

It's no use promising Catholics the reverence and holiness of the true Mass when the reality of the typical (particularly) Sunday TLM is so very different.

I agree that not everyone minds the noise.  But many do.  They tend not to say anything and grit their teeth - or leave - because of the vitriol that inevitably results.


Yes, why pretend?

Since I was able to find a TLM in 1991 I have attended Mass at three Society chapels: Hopkington, NY; Hudson Falls, NY; North Caldwell, NJ, an independent chapel in West Orange, NJ, and the same West Orange church now staffed by the ICKSP and never in all these Masses has anything remotely happened with children crying as you assert.

Additionally, in my years of attending my parish in Caldwell, NJ--1947-1970--has there been any been any long crying at Mass.  (There was on one occasion, but my mother took me out!!)

It just doesn't happen.
“. . . we will jealously protect the small but still burning candle of our traditional Catholic Faith, and patiently carry on our spiritual Resistance movement without the hoped-for papal approval.” Fr. Gommar A. DePauw, August 15, 1967, Letter to Paul VI, www.latinmass-ctm.org/pub/archive.htm.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2019, 03:09:49 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2019, 05:05:19 AM »
There is no hand holding, clapping or anything charismatic like in the Latin mass.  It is quiet and for the most part people have either heads down in prayer or face forward looking at the priest.  I've been to masses where kids have fallen or somebody has knocked over a walking stick and not one head has turned around to see what was the kerfuffle. Mid week mass is even quieter.  NO mass is so full of noise and babble I can never get to finish a Hail Mary never mind actually concentrate on Our Lord in the Tabernacle and I find my mind is muddled/agitated after attending.
Most definitely you will not hear or see anything about LGBTQ issues except solid Catholic doctrine in relation to sin.

So you prefer NO? [which is fine if you can find one you like.  I never accept our Lord in the hand even at NO]

No, she goes to a TLM (in Ireland  :) )
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2019, 07:55:37 AM »
The apost;es were rebuked for just such an attitude.

Matthew 19:13 *Then were little children presented to him, that he should lay his hands upon them and pray. And the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said to them: *Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.

And yet there is a striking absence of babies and toddlers at the most sacred and significant events of Christ's Ministry.

Were there little children at the Last Supper?

The Mass is not a toddler training class.

The Last Supper was the mystical enacting of Calvary, by which Christ enacted His perpetual Sacrifice under the appearance of bread and wine. But one doesn't get to escape Calvary by appealing to the Last Supper -- the Novus Ordo tries, and has lost all semblance of the truly sacred, profound, and real.

At the Crucifixion there were a few saints, yes. But it would not have been quiet or even reverent. For additionally there was the bad thief and the crowds wandering by, wagging their tongues. There were pagan soldiers who were foul mouthed. Flies. The heat of the day. Likely the stench of the dead whose bodies had been carted off already, their evacuated refuse at the feet of the 3 crosses' vertical beams. The screaming of the condemned sinner who would mock Christ. The guttural wailing of recognizing death that most men think will not escape their lips until the spectre of death sits perched above their heads.

At the Last Supper was Judas, embodying the personal worthlessness of it all for all who would reject the reality of what was occurring, quiet and reverent as it was.

Tell us, awkward, was Calvary more or less special and sacred than the Last Supper?
LENT: Sunday only

"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.

Woe is me, because I have held my peace. Isaiah 6
 
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Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2019, 08:16:22 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
Yup. And it seems to me that most are so hardcore for the Mass that they wouldn't even think of missing a minute or two by taking their child out to the vestibule for a spell. Even if it wrecks a beautiful and quiet Low Mass for everyone else.
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2019, 08:40:08 AM »
Denial is not a river in Egypt.

Admit it.  Babies and toddlers at Mass is the one Vatican II innovation that Trads have adopted wholeheartedly.

Read St Therese of Lisieux.  In 'Story of a Soul' she describes staying at home with 'Mama' because she was considered too young to attend Sunday Mass.

How did she ever become a Saint?
Yup. And it seems to me that most are so hardcore for the Mass that they wouldn't even think of missing a minute or two by taking their child out to the vestibule for a spell. Even if it wrecks a beautiful and quiet Low Mass for everyone else.

Beautiful and quiet Low Masses are largely a thing of the past.  They can be found but they are rare indeed.

I'm not sure what kind of devotion to the Mass this demonstrates.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 08:45:09 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.