My liberal church finally went over the edge.

[The Harlequin King]

For whatever it's worth, when I'm tasked with planning a music program for a TLM, there's really not much silence at all.  A spirit of contemplation and reflection, certainly. But little silence. This past Sunday, I took over a choirmaster position for a monthly TLM which had not had a sung Mass in over a year. I brought my own chant schola to sing the full Propers, of course (including extending the Offertory with Offertoriale Triplex verses, the Communion with psalm verses, etc.), sang some of the more unusual chants of the Ordinary from the Liber Usualis, even a different Asperges than usual. Organ before and after the homily, after the elevation of the chalice, during the Last Gospel, etc. Everything was done firmly within the established tradition, but even so, the only prolonged period of silence during this particular liturgy--as with many others I've served over the years--was during the consecration itself, and during the priest's own Communion.

Thankfully, it was incredibly well received, and attendance almost doubled just because people knew the schola was coming.

Short clip of fourth verse from processional hymn, followed by Asperges me:

[aquinas138]

Why would anyone turn to Tradition when the the typical TLM is as noisy, disturbing and chaotic as the NO?

I'm not sure when you last attended the NO, but this is simply not true. First of all, total silence during Mass is not the point of Tradition (it's a "little t" tradition anyway); the point of Tradition is, or ought to be, the True Faith. You would attend the TLM because it is the Roman Church's bimillennial expression of the Catholic Faith; the NO is deficient in virtually every respect, even if it is technically valid, and is expressive less of the unchanged Faith than of the theological Zeitgeist of the 1960s.

[Miriam_M]

But whatever the reason - Vatican II, the world, or both - Trads have decided that noisy Masses are now the norm.  That is a decision that Trads, and Trads alone, have made.

I hope we've "made a decision" to be tolerant, and not expect monastic silence at Masses attended exclusively by laity, in populated areas.  At my Church, babies are not a problem; if they act up, 90% of the time they are hungry, and the mother retreats outside or to the vestibule to nurse. Toddlers can be tame or not; school-age children can be tame or not.  It's whatever standards of discipline exist in the family.  Maybe you just have an unusually low tolerance for noise and restlessness; some people do, because of hyper-acute senses.  I think I mentioned that on another thread.

But all of your reporting is anecdotal -- hard to verify from a continent away, and there are not enough data points of comparison for me to believe all of your claims as to the offenses against silence.  At one of the last N.O. Masses I attended (several years ago), a couple embodying the disobedient spirit of V2 brought their child or children -- I forget.  Not a single TLM I have ever attended sounded like that.  It wasn't only that there was sheer shrieking, without exaggeration, from the back rows.  It was the utter lack of will on the part of the couple to maintain any parental control whatsoever.  Apparently they believed that the shrieking was charming or entertaining.

So for every anecdote -- exaggerated or not -- you can provide us, I can offer many more instances of unruly N.O. Masses -- usually where BOTH the children and adults are ill-behaved, and in my experience at vast numbers of N.O. Masses, the offenses by adults far outnumber the offenses by children. 

I wasn't joking when I suggested that it would be a good idea for you to attend Masses at monasteries instead.

[awkwardcustomer]

But whatever the reason - Vatican II, the world, or both - Trads have decided that noisy Masses are now the norm.  That is a decision that Trads, and Trads alone, have made.

I hope we've "made a decision" to be tolerant, and not expect monastic silence at Masses attended exclusively by laity, in populated areas. 

No.  You have "made a decision" to end the peace and quiet at Mass that used to be widely available to the laity. 

You have "made a decision" to embrace a Vatican II novelty.

At my Church, babies are not a problem;

Aren't you lucky.

But all of your reporting is anecdotal

So is yours.

I wasn't joking when I suggested that it would be a good idea for you to attend Masses at monasteries instead.

Do you really think I haven't tried this?

You seem to be saying that silence and peace at Mass are only for those in religious orders, or attached to them.  The laity, on the other hand, have to tolerate noise and disturbance at Mass because Trads have made the decision to embrace a Vatican II novelty.

Modern …...

[Miriam_M]

Having families with a complete spread of ages at a Latin Mass is NOT a "Vatican II novelty."  You really need to read some more history, and not just selectively.  Many pre-V2 churches had crying rooms.  We discussed this on another thread.  Adults with unruly very young children, prior to V2 were expected to bring them to the crying room.  The parents were not expected to leave their children home, even though the traditional Mass was offered multiple times every Sunday in suburbs and cities (and therefore "tag-team" parenting was possible). Parents who did not control their children were subject to public scolding about that from the pulpit.  However, often the congregation could hear the screaming in the crying room anyway. It depended on how loud the noise was.

Here's what trads have "decided to embrace":

a return to large families and the rejection of contraception.  This is going to mean that siblings in close age will be together in a pew, and "bothering each other" (or worse) could add to the noise concern (i.e., make management more difficult).

the whole family coming to Mass together, as a witness for the children within a family and for other families, including visitors from the N.O. 

practicing a little charity -- recalling that probably our parents disciplined us at the same age if we were restless at Mass.

Regarding your question about monasteries, the obvious reason their Masses are quiet is that those in religious life have no children.  Also, a very quiet Mass is going to be something that many large families avoid, because they know that by contrast a family will inadvertently draw attention to itself by being such a minority in that setting.  I am not saying that "peace and quiet" is ONLY for those in religious orders. I'm saying that one is far more likely to find it there than at a largely lay Mass.  And I'm saying that you're practicing revisionist history if you believe that pre-V2 Sunday Masses -- not weekday Masses -- had a profoundly different air of peace and quiet about them than post-V2 Sunday TLM's.

Several of us have said on the previous thread that very early a.m. low Sunday Masses will be in general far quieter than the later Sunday TLM's. This is consistently true at my parish.  Part of that quiet is because of smaller Mass attendance at the early hour.  A few very large families do come, and the children are impeccably behaved -- calm, etc. It's too early for them to "know what hit them," so to speak.  The later in the day (e.g., midday), the more crowded the church (80% full), and the longer the Mass itself (High Mass of 2 hours vs. low Mass of 35-40 minutes, with homily), the more difficult it will be for young children to be as quiet as they would be at the early hour.

But rare is the parish with more than one Sunday TLM.  And rare is the parish where all TLM attendees live nearby.  All of that factors into the noise you keep complaining about.

Except for your faulty revisionist history, it no longer sounds as if you'd be happiest even at a monastery Mass, or at least that's something you seem unwilling to try.  But you've said it over and over how bad trads are for what we tolerate.  So returning to the N.O. is perhaps a solution for you.

The other solution would be ceasing your complaints to us but addressing your complaints to the presiding priests.  Whether or not we have young children, we're not responsible for your discomfort unless we attend your church, and we're also not responsible to come up with a solution.

[awkwardcustomer]

Having families with a complete spread of ages at a Latin Mass is NOT a "Vatican II novelty."  You really need to read some more history, and not just selectively.  Many pre-V2 churches had crying rooms.  We discussed this on another thread.  Adults with unruly very young children, prior to V2 were expected to bring them to the crying room.  The parents were not expected to leave their children home, even though the traditional Mass was offered multiple times every Sunday in suburbs and cities (and therefore "tag-team" parenting was possible). Parents who did not control their children were subject to public scolding about that from the pulpit.  However, often the congregation could hear the screaming in the crying room anyway. It depended on how loud the noise was.

Things were different before Vatican II, is what you're saying. 

Here's what trads have "decided to embrace":

a return to large families and the rejection of contraception.  This is going to mean that siblings in close age will be together in a pew, and "bothering each other" (or worse) could add to the noise concern (i.e., make management more difficult).

the whole family coming to Mass together, as a witness for the children within a family and for other families, including visitors from the N.O. 

practicing a little charity -- recalling that probably our parents disciplined us at the same age if we were restless at Mass.

Catholics used to embrace all of the above.  And still St Therese of Lisieux was considered too young, as a toddler, to attend Sunday Mass.

I am not saying that "peace and quiet" is ONLY for those in religious orders.

Yes you are. 

Several of us have said on the previous thread that very early a.m. low Sunday Masses will be in general far quieter than the later Sunday TLM's. This is consistently true at my parish.  Part of that quiet is because of smaller Mass attendance at the early hour.  A few very large families do come, and the children are impeccably behaved -- calm, etc. It's too early for them to "know what hit them," so to speak.  The later in the day (e.g., midday), the more crowded the church (80% full), and the longer the Mass itself (High Mass of 2 hours vs. low Mass of 35-40 minutes, with homily), the more difficult it will be for young children to be as quiet as they would be at the early hour.

But rare is the parish with more than one Sunday TLM.  And rare is the parish where all TLM attendees live nearby.  All of that factors into the noise you keep complaining about.

It seems you think I haven't been attending the TLM for 20 years.

Except for your faulty revisionist history,

My history is more accurate than yours.

So returning to the N.O. is perhaps a solution for you.

Thank you very much.

The other solution would be ceasing your complaints to us but addressing your complaints to the presiding priests.  Whether or not we have young children, we're not responsible for your discomfort unless we attend your church, and we're also not responsible to come up with a solution.

And thank you again.

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions. 

[2Towers]

For whatever it's worth, when I'm tasked with planning a music program for a TLM, there's really not much silence at all.  A spirit of contemplation and reflection, certainly. But little silence. This past Sunday, I took over a choirmaster position for a monthly TLM which had not had a sung Mass in over a year. I brought my own chant schola to sing the full Propers, of course (including extending the Offertory with Offertoriale Triplex verses, the Communion with psalm verses, etc.), sang some of the more unusual chants of the Ordinary from the Liber Usualis, even a different Asperges than usual. Organ before and after the homily, after the elevation of the chalice, during the Last Gospel, etc. Everything was done firmly within the established tradition, but even so, the only prolonged period of silence during this particular liturgy--as with many others I've served over the years--was during the consecration itself, and during the priest's own Communion.

Thankfully, it was incredibly well received, and attendance almost doubled just because people knew the schola was coming.

Short clip of fourth verse from processional hymn, followed by Asperges me:

Outside of a monastery there is little silence anywhere.  What I think is important is reverence.  When the mass is underway, there shouldn't be a lot of talking in the pews.  Even in my liberal church once the mass gets started people are usually pretty quiet.  We had a vicar that started getting on people that were arriving late and wandering in and out during mass, more than just bathroom traffic.  People got indignant about it at first, but many of us were grateful.  I will take a little extra noise if it means getting away from the modernists.  I am no angel, just a sinner made from dirt, who is striving for holiness  before I finally kick off the planet.  I just can't stomach my church's rapid plunge towards becoming an Episcopal Church.  .02

[Miriam_M]

I don't really want to argue any more about this topic, but I do want to suggest something, based on my own experience becoming more tolerant.

I realize that for some people, it's simply not helpful just to say, essentially, "Get used to it."  When I did that myself (trying to force myself to get used to unpleasant settings, including church settings), it merely increased my anger because all I really did was suppress my honest disappointment.  It was only when I realized I had to stop focusing on my disappointment -- not to focus on the externals of what was happening outside of me -- on "the other" -- that I was able to be at peace. 

I don't know how to explain this well.  It feels somewhat like meditation, perhaps.  (Catholic meditation, not New Age or "transcendental"!)  Perhaps centering is a better word, but the point is, that it's really about my calm, not about what's going on around me.  And it starts even before I walk into church, which is one reason I actually do not like it when others entering the church try to stop me and socialize. I sometimes have trouble being my usual friendly self then, because I do not experience low or high Mass as a social event.  Chatting afterwards is very different than chatting beforehand. I try to recollect myself before I enter.  So I enter a kind of interior ("monastic") silence to prepare myself to be receptive to grace, not to whichever adult is making a spectacle of herself (read my much earlier post on this) or whether a group of any age is being restless in the pews or doing odd things.

A few other things help:  (1) not making eye contact with others, but practicing custody of the eyes, mind, and soul.  ("Let nothing disturb you.")  (2) Praying to Our Lady to help with interior silence, since surely she is the queen of silence and receptivity  (3) Using my veil as a kind of "screen" on either side of me, discouraging me from looking at every distracting event or sound.

So for example I did this tonight at Mass, and it was very helpful because there were a lot more attendees tonight, for some reason.  And many of those were not "regulars" at this Mass, which sometimes creates distractions by that very fact, if I allow it.  I realized tonight that I really have cultivated using my body and mind to help me focus only on what's important.  I think part of what has helped me is that I now sleep next to a very, very busy street -- major thoroughfare, lots of loud cars, motorcycles, buses, emergency vehicles, street sweepers, etc.  I was either going to learn to tune out noise, or I was going to be awake all night.  So I have learned to do this in more than one setting.

Now, it's true that I do use earbuds at night sometimes, if the street is just too loud and if I have no time to waste going to sleep for an early rising.  But I listen to traditional sermons while doing so, and that gets me in a prayerful mood, which itself helps the process of tuning out external noise. I think I have unconsciously applied that practice of calm to the practice of the presence of God inside church, regardless of disruption.  It has really helped.

If I hadn't been able to develop those techniques, perhaps I would use earbuds in church, but ONLY if I were able to do so very unobtrusively, which for me would mean:

already arriving with earbuds on
sitting somewhere very out of the way (like the side pews near the confessionals, or the back if noisemakers are closer to the middle of the church, and vice-versa

I'm pretty sure that my trad priest would disapprove of anyone inserting earbuds in response to children's noise and in view of that family.  He would consider that quite uncharitable.  He would instead prescribe moving far away from the family but never doing anything so overt.

Just some ideas for Awkward, in an attempt to be constructive.

[diaduit]

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

I am interested in your offer of a solution.
Married father and mother with 6 children, two under 3 and another on the way, one TLM on Sunday at 10 a.m and a midweek mass every day at  11 a.m. and they live 45 minutes away.  The father works Monday to Friday and the mum home schools.  Her (mum) parents are elderly and she has a hands on active part in their daily lives taking care of essentials.

What do you propose this family does to accommodate your situation.

[awkwardcustomer]

I don't really want to argue any more about this topic, but I do want to suggest something, based on my own experience becoming more tolerant.

Tolerant?  I'm surprised you're not embarrassed to keep using this word. 

Whenever a modern person urges others to be more 'tolerant', what they are really saying is 'put up and shut up'.

I realize that for some people, it's simply not helpful just to say, essentially, "Get used to it."  When I did that myself (trying to force myself to get used to unpleasant settings, including church settings), it merely increased my anger because all I really did was suppress my honest disappointment.  It was only when I realized I had to stop focusing on my disappointment -- not to focus on the externals of what was happening outside of me -- on "the other" -- that I was able to be at peace. 

Exactly.  Having tried every way, for 20 years, to accommodate myself to the modern Trad preference for noise and disturbance at Mass, I find that the situation has become worse for me, not better.

I don't know how to explain this well.  It feels somewhat like meditation, perhaps.  (Catholic meditation, not New Age or "transcendental"!)  Perhaps centering is a better word, but the point is, that it's really about my calm, not about what's going on around me.  And it starts even before I walk into church, which is one reason I actually do not like it when others entering the church try to stop me and socialize. I sometimes have trouble being my usual friendly self then, because I do not experience low or high Mass as a social event.  Chatting afterwards is very different than chatting beforehand. I try to recollect myself before I enter.  So I enter a kind of interior ("monastic") silence to prepare myself to be receptive to grace, not to whichever adult is making a spectacle of herself (read my much earlier post on this) or whether a group of any age is being restless in the pews or doing odd things.

A few other things help:  (1) not making eye contact with others, but practicing custody of the eyes, mind, and soul.  ("Let nothing disturb you.")  (2) Praying to Our Lady to help with interior silence, since surely she is the queen of silence and receptivity  (3) Using my veil as a kind of "screen" on either side of me, discouraging me from looking at every distracting event or sound.

So for example I did this tonight at Mass, and it was very helpful because there were a lot more attendees tonight, for some reason.  And many of those were not "regulars" at this Mass, which sometimes creates distractions by that very fact, if I allow it.  I realized tonight that I really have cultivated using my body and mind to help me focus only on what's important.  I think part of what has helped me is that I now sleep next to a very, very busy street -- major thoroughfare, lots of loud cars, motorcycles, buses, emergency vehicles, street sweepers, etc.  I was either going to learn to tune out noise, or I was going to be awake all night.  So I have learned to do this in more than one setting.

There's not a single suggestion you have made here or elsewhere that I haven't already tried.  Apart from ear buds, that is.  See below.

If I hadn't been able to develop those techniques, perhaps I would use earbuds in church, but ONLY if I were able to do so very unobtrusively, which for me would mean:

already arriving with earbuds on
sitting somewhere very out of the way (like the side pews near the confessionals, or the back if noisemakers are closer to the middle of the church, and vice-versa

I'm pretty sure that my trad priest would disapprove of anyone inserting earbuds in response to children's noise and in view of that family.  He would consider that quite uncharitable.  He would instead prescribe moving far away from the family but never doing anything so overt.

Just some ideas for Awkward, in an attempt to be constructive

Ah - ear buds.  I haven't tried this.  A poster on the other thread suggested ear buds. And I have a pair of musicians' ear defenders which are almost unobtrusive enough look like ordinary headphones.  Perhaps I should try them at Mass. Except you also seem to be saying that it would be 'uncharitable' to wear them. 

What you were saying earlier, Miriam, is that noise and disturbance are now the norm at Mass, including the TLM, and that anyone who finds this distressing should go elsewhere - to a monastery or to the NO. Now you are suggesting all kinds of techniques - all of which I have tried, over and over again, to no avail, apart from the ear defenders. 

I get it, Miriam.  There's no place at the typical modern Trad TLM for people like me, unless they're prepared to devote endless time and effort into blocking out the noise.  You might have plenty of energy for dealing with a situation that no Catholic before Vatican II would have dreamt of 'tolerating', but I no longer have such energy.   

Ear defenders aside - I have found my solution.  I look for private TLMs at out of the way, unadvertised locations.  Those who are distressed by the modern acceptance of noise and disturbance at Mass have to find their own solutions.

I suggest we agree to differ on this.

[awkwardcustomer]

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

I am interested in your offer of a solution.
Married father and mother with 6 children, two under 3 and another on the way, one TLM on Sunday at 10 a.m and a midweek mass every day at  11 a.m. and they live 45 minutes away.  The father works Monday to Friday and the mum home schools.  Her (mum) parents are elderly and she has a hands on active part in their daily lives taking care of essentials.

What do you propose this family does to accommodate your situation.

You could start by asking yourself if the 'our situation versus your situation' approach is helpful. 

You could also recognise that you are living in a situation that is unique in Catholic history.  How many miles is a 45 minute drive? How far do you live from any Trad Catholic support networks, if any exist?  Do you have a support network among your non Catholic neighbours?  Catholics living in such isolation, especially individual families, even extended ones, is  an entirely modern development.

But according to contemporary Trad culture, it is your fairly typical living arrangements which have to be accommodated.   Part of that culture even awards brownie points to those who have to travel the furthest to get to Mass. 

So I wouldn't suggest you do anything.  It would be too much of a burden and wouldn't achieve anything.  The culture is too ingrained and those who struggle with it are running scared because they know how people will react if the subject is raised.

I'm always surprised at how many young Trads come to those out of the way, private, Low Masses.  Are they seeking refuge from the chaos, I sometimes wonder. Who knows, perhaps one or more of your own children might be one of those highly sensitive types who joins them one day.

Meanwhile, I shall pray to Our Lady, queen of silence and receptivity as Miriam pointed out above, for someone to start a new Trad movement dedicated to preserving the beautiful silence of the traditional Low Mass, open to all Catholics who have reached the age of reason.

I shall do this for all those children, teenagers and twentysomethings who also long for peace and stillness at Mass.

Someone has to.

[The Harlequin King]

I think awkwardcustomer would like the Mass community I posted the video of. There are actually no small, noisy children, so while it's a sung Mass, it's a very... orderly one.

[Miriam_M]

THIS:

Outside of a monastery there is little silence anywhere.

Awkward has ridiculed several suggestions, but I will say something I'm pretty sure my trad priest would say.  He would say that although we have a right to expect silence from adults in church, and supervision from parents to establish the maximum silence possible from young children, things happen because a lay church building is not a monastery or contemplative convent.  We do not have a right to monastic silence, even though I also prefer that, because we are not ourselves vowed religious.

He would say that the purpose of any moment, including any Mass "moment" for us as individuals is to respond to all the opportunities for virtue presented to us.  When I have complained even about adults misbehaving in particular settings, he has shown me that the most important thing at the moment was for me to respond to the grace opportunity to develop whatever virtue I have needed (I'm sure still need):  patience, tolerance, etc., and use whatever means I need to protect myself from whatever disruptions disturb me. Some of those methods could be exterior, some interior.

Thus, an individual's "right" for the ideal Mass environment does not eclipse our need to grow in virtue in every environment, at every occasion, at that present moment.

He's not advocating for noisy Masses and permissiveness, because he himself has corrected adult misbehavior in church, and I know he does not approve of quite untamed children.  Nor am I setting myself up as someone "more tolerant" --a comment you made above, implying that I'm comparing myself favorably to you; I'm not; I'm saying I have had the same concerns and impulses and have had to find coping strategies just like you; you're hardly unique.

[awkwardcustomer]

.

[diaduit]

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

I am interested in your offer of a solution.
Married father and mother with 6 children, two under 3 and another on the way, one TLM on Sunday at 10 a.m and a midweek mass every day at  11 a.m. and they live 45 minutes away.  The father works Monday to Friday and the mum home schools.  Her (mum) parents are elderly and she has a hands on active part in their daily lives taking care of essentials.

What do you propose this family does to accommodate your situation.

You could start by asking yourself if the 'our situation versus your situation' approach is helpful. 

You could also recognise that you are living in a situation that is unique in Catholic history.  How many miles is a 45 minute drive? How far do you live from any Trad Catholic support networks, if any exist?  Do you have a support network among your non Catholic neighbours?  Catholics living in such isolation, especially individual families, even extended ones, is  an entirely modern development.

But according to contemporary Trad culture, it is your fairly typical living arrangements which have to be accommodated.   Part of that culture even awards brownie points to those who have to travel the furthest to get to Mass. 

So I wouldn't suggest you do anything.  It would be too much of a burden and wouldn't achieve anything.  The culture is too ingrained and those who struggle with it are running scared because they know how people will react if the subject is raised.

I'm always surprised at how many young Trads come to those out of the way, private, Low Masses.  Are they seeking refuge from the chaos, I sometimes wonder. Who knows, perhaps one or more of your own children might be one of those highly sensitive types who joins them one day.

Meanwhile, I shall pray to Our Lady, queen of silence and receptivity as Miriam pointed out above, for someone to start a new Trad movement dedicated to preserving the beautiful silence of the traditional Low Mass, open to all Catholics who have reached the age of reason.

I shall do this for all those children, teenagers and twentysomethings who also long for peace and stillness at Mass.

Someone has to.
[/quote

so the answer is you have no solution to offer.

BTW it was me who suggested ear plugs.  An elderly gentleman in my parish put in ear plugs one day when I was at midweek mass with my little one.  I was so grateful to him for taking it upon himself to sort out what was a distraction for him and I was not a bit put out.