Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 5503 times)

Offline coffeeandcigarette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2019, 12:00:20 PM »
Having families with a complete spread of ages at a Latin Mass is NOT a "Vatican II novelty."  You really need to read some more history, and not just selectively.  Many pre-V2 churches had crying rooms.  We discussed this on another thread.  Adults with unruly very young children, prior to V2 were expected to bring them to the crying room.  The parents were not expected to leave their children home, even though the traditional Mass was offered multiple times every Sunday in suburbs and cities (and therefore "tag-team" parenting was possible). Parents who did not control their children were subject to public scolding about that from the pulpit.  However, often the congregation could hear the screaming in the crying room anyway. It depended on how loud the noise was.

Things were different before Vatican II, is what you're saying. 

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Here's what trads have "decided to embrace":

a return to large families and the rejection of contraception.  This is going to mean that siblings in close age will be together in a pew, and "bothering each other" (or worse) could add to the noise concern (i.e., make management more difficult).

the whole family coming to Mass together, as a witness for the children within a family and for other families, including visitors from the N.O. 

practicing a little charity -- recalling that probably our parents disciplined us at the same age if we were restless at Mass.

Catholics used to embrace all of the above.  And still St Therese of Lisieux was considered too young, as a toddler, to attend Sunday Mass.

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I am not saying that "peace and quiet" is ONLY for those in religious orders.

Yes you are. 

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Several of us have said on the previous thread that very early a.m. low Sunday Masses will be in general far quieter than the later Sunday TLM's. This is consistently true at my parish.  Part of that quiet is because of smaller Mass attendance at the early hour.  A few very large families do come, and the children are impeccably behaved -- calm, etc. It's too early for them to "know what hit them," so to speak.  The later in the day (e.g., midday), the more crowded the church (80% full), and the longer the Mass itself (High Mass of 2 hours vs. low Mass of 35-40 minutes, with homily), the more difficult it will be for young children to be as quiet as they would be at the early hour.

But rare is the parish with more than one Sunday TLM.  And rare is the parish where all TLM attendees live nearby.  All of that factors into the noise you keep complaining about.

It seems you think I haven't been attending the TLM for 20 years.

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Except for your faulty revisionist history,

My history is more accurate than yours.

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So returning to the N.O. is perhaps a solution for you.

Thank you very much.

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The other solution would be ceasing your complaints to us but addressing your complaints to the presiding priests.  Whether or not we have young children, we're not responsible for your discomfort unless we attend your church, and we're also not responsible to come up with a solution.

And thank you again.

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

 You know what, you are right. Solutions are important. I have a fantastic one.

Most traditional Catholics are very willing to complain about the world, I'm sure you are one of them. You hate how liberal the world is, you hate how immodest the women are, you hate the laws allowing abortion, contraception, etc. If only people would just embrace tradition, wear modest clothing, stop all the insanity, the world would be a better place...
 Well as a matter of fact, a lot of people have done this...the married people with all the children. It is one thing to verbally denounce the world and modernism as a single person. It is a whole other thing to be the ones living out the obedience to laws both natural and divine. No contraception? Ok then, lots and lots of children. Mom staying home with children? Ok then, one income. You can kiss luxuries like cleaning ladies, maids, etc away. You want to attend mass on Sunday? Well then you have to bring your children with you since you cannot afford the aforementioned nanny/maid/servant to watch them.

I am not casting aspersions on anyone, but you seem to forget during your constant St. Therese examples that her mother and father both had full time jobs, and a house full of maids and servants.
 
  Now for the reasonable solution you asked for. I think single people in the parish with no children should volunteer to babysit for couples on Sunday and feast days. This way, anyone has the option of leaving their children at home like St. Therese. I know you don't want tradition to be dead in 20 years, so you must be in favor of large families. I know you want people to obey the laws of God, so you must not be in favor of abortion or contraception. You must realize that in order to raise good children who love God, it is best for Mother's to stay home, so I cannot imagine you want us all out there earning two incomes per household. I will assume then that you understand exactly why things are "different" now then they were in the old days and would like to help. Let me know your thoughts.
 
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Offline Traditionallyruralmom

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2019, 04:53:34 PM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that. 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2019, 07:21:10 PM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that.

St Therese's mother had been ill for some time and died when St Therese was four.  Perhaps this explains her inability to nurse her child.

In 'Story of a Soul', St Therese makes no suggestion that her non-attendance at Mass was due to her mother.  Rather, that it was the practice of the day, as demonstrated by her excitement when her father and older sister brought her the 'blessed bread' from Mass. 

But you're right, it was a different world, one in which the presence of babies and toddlers at Mass and the inevitable disturbance they create would have been unthinkable.

And yet they still managed to make saints.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2019, 03:07:35 AM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that.

St Therese's mother had been ill for some time and died when St Therese was four.  Perhaps this explains her inability to nurse her child.

In 'Story of a Soul', St Therese makes no suggestion that her non-attendance at Mass was due to her mother.  Rather, that it was the practice of the day, as demonstrated by her excitement when her father and older sister brought her the 'blessed bread' from Mass. 

But you're right, it was a different world, one in which the presence of babies and toddlers at Mass and the inevitable disturbance they create would have been unthinkable.

And yet they still managed to make saints.




Zelie sent all her children to wet nurses and they lost one little girl to a bad wet nurse who took the money but never fed the baby who eventually died.  She had a successful lace business and had to return to work very soon after the birth of her children.

She did rear great saints but she did work and she did send them away for the first year or two to be fed by strangers hired by her.
 
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2019, 04:20:35 AM »
Using St Therese as an example is ridiculous. It was a regional custom ONLY FOR THE WEALTHY. There is no history of children not attending Mass.

Again, children receiving Holy Communion was the norm for the east and west for hundreds of centuries from baptism on. The East still continues this.

If you want to use her as an example you couldn't receive frequently, and you couldn't even receive daily as a nun, even St. Therese didn't receive Holy Communion daily.

I know we use the wealthy most of the time as historical precedent, but she is not a precedent for history. She's an example of rich 19th century France. Nothing more, nothing less.

If anyone dared raise their children like she was they would be turned into social services and every trad would say her mother wasn't doing her job.

"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #140 on: September 23, 2019, 04:50:41 AM »
Using St Therese as an example is ridiculous. It was a regional custom ONLY FOR THE WEALTHY. There is no history of children not attending Mass.

Again, children receiving Holy Communion was the norm for the east and west for hundreds of centuries from baptism on. The East still continues this.

If you want to use her as an example you couldn't receive frequently, and you couldn't even receive daily as a nun, even St. Therese didn't receive Holy Communion daily.

I know we use the wealthy most of the time as historical precedent, but she is not a precedent for history. She's an example of rich 19th century France. Nothing more, nothing less.

If anyone dared raise their children like she was they would be turned into social services and every trad would say her mother wasn't doing her job.

Nonsense.

You, and others here, are dismissing the example of St Therese because it doesn't suit your argument.  But St Therese's example still stands, and was certainly not a practice reserved only for the wealthy.

You or any other poster here, are free to post as many counter examples as you like.  So provide one. Give us an example of a Saint, Doctor, theologian, or any lay Catholic for that matter, who writes about the presence of babies and toddlers at the Masses of their childhood.

Not children, but babies and toddlers.

As for the mothers of the past, would the pre-Vatican II mother of a friend of mine also be reported to Social Services, because she hated any noise and disturbance at Mass, wouldn't tolerate babies and toddlers at Mass, and used go alone to a Sunday Low Mass for the peace and quiet?

And what about the pre-Vatican II nuns who used to patrol the church, ready to pounce on and eject any child who dared make a peep during Mass?  Again, this is the testimony of another Catholic who remembers the pre-V2 situation.

How would Trads today cope with some real Tradition?  Not very well, I suspect.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Aeternitus

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #141 on: September 23, 2019, 04:57:40 AM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that.

Yes, this is true.  Zelie did send St Therese to live with a wet nurse:

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… His tomb will be near that of my two little Josephs." This last sentence refers to her two boys, Joseph, who died at the age of one year in 1867 and Joseph-Jean-Baptiste, who also died at the age of one in 1868. In 1870 her little girl, Hélène, died at the age of five and a half years. In 1870 Mélanie also died, less than two months old. In five years Zélie went to the graveside six times [father and father-in-law]. In this multiple experience of grief we see how affectionate she was, how sensitive to suffering, and how imbued with a strong spirit of faith.

She says of the deaths of her children, "When I closed the eyes of my dear children and prepared them for burial, I was indeed grief-stricken, but, thanks to God's grace, I have always been resigned to His will. I do not regret the pains and sacrifices I underwent for them." She then goes on to say that she "doesn't understand people who say 'You'd have been better not to have gone through all of that." She adds, "They're enjoying heaven now. Moreover, I have not lost them always. Life is short, and I shall find my little ones again in heaven."

Birth of Thérèse

     When Thérèse was born in 1873, Zélie knew that this would be the last child she would have. Thérèse became very ill right after her birth. By now acquainted with death, Zélie feared for Thérèse's life. After her first three children, Zélie could not breast-feed her babies and so had them fed by a wet-nurse. She describes Thérèse's illness in this way:

     If it had not been so late, I would have set out that night to find a nurse. How long that night was! Thérèse would not take the least nourishment, and, all that night, all the sad signs that preceded the deaths of my other little angels manifested themselves, and I was sad that this last-born could not receive from me the least help in her weak and feeble condition.

     At first light she set off, and on the way she saw two rough-looking men coming toward her on a deserted road. She said to herself, "If they kill me, it will make no difference. I have the grief of death already in my heart." She finally reached Semallè and asked Rose Taillè to come to Thérèse. Rose had nursed some of the other Martin children. She asked Rose to come and stay in Alençon. But Rose had a baby of her own and refused to go—both mothers drawn to protect the children they had brought into the world. Finally Rose agreed to go and bring Thérèse back to Semallè, where she would care for her. When they got back to Alençon, Rose saw Thérèse and said, "It is too late." Zélie rushed upstairs to the statue of St. Joseph and begged him to help the baby. When she came downstairs, Thérèse was drinking away to her heart's content.

 

Offline Aeternitus

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #142 on: September 23, 2019, 05:09:58 AM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that.

St Therese's mother had been ill for some time and died when St Therese was four.  Perhaps this explains her inability to nurse her child.

In 'Story of a Soul', St Therese makes no suggestion that her non-attendance at Mass was due to her mother.  Rather, that it was the practice of the day, as demonstrated by her excitement when her father and older sister brought her the 'blessed bread' from Mass. 

But you're right, it was a different world, one in which the presence of babies and toddlers at Mass and the inevitable disturbance they create would have been unthinkable.

And yet they still managed to make saints.




Zelie sent all her children to wet nurses and they lost one little girl to a bad wet nurse who took the money but never fed the baby who eventually died.  She had a successful lace business and had to return to work very soon after the birth of her children.

She did rear great saints but she did work and she did send them away for the first year or two to be fed by strangers hired by her.


Not all of her children had to go to wet nurses, only those after the first three:

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We have noticed that Zélie could not breast-feed Thérèse. As a young girl, she had fallen against a table and hurt her breast. In 1865 she mentioned to her brother in a letter that she was experiencing pain. She did not do anything about it, probably hoping it would go away. Later she developed lumps in her breast, and, with the pain, was unable to feed the children herself. Finally, because of the pain, she realized that she had cancer—but it was too late; the doctors pronounced it terminal.

Yes, Zelie did work - from home:

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     Alençon is a center of lacemaking in France. Zélie became an expert in this accurate, detailed, and demanding work. Eventually she organized a group of women around her. She designed the patterns and bought the thread. On Thursdays the ladies came to her home, and she assigned a certain amount of work to each, which they would do in their houses. The following Thursday they would bring the completed pieces to Zélie. She would assemble the pieces, mend broken threads, and assign new work for the coming week. She became very successful in this business venture. She used the ground floor of her family home in the Rue Ste. Blaise as her office and workrooms. Realizing that she was not destined to be a nun, she decided to marry and have a family. It was in this frame of mind that she met the eligible bachelor Louis Martin. When they married she was 27 years of age; he was 35.

     It is interesting that when she got married, Zélie had no idea of what we call "the facts of life." Discovering them on her wedding day, she went to her sister (now Sister Marie-Dosithée, a Visitation Sister in Le Mans) and poured out her heart in a flood of tears. Later on we have a letter where she says, "I never regretted having married." Louis was an idealist, almost a romanticist, and he convinced her that they would live together as brother and sister. After ten months, they realized that was not really what God wanted, especially in view of Zélie's desire to have children. The next year Marie was born, then Pauline, and then Léonie.

     Zélie's lace business was doing so well that Louis sold his watch-making and jewelry business to his nephew and became manager and salesman for Zélie. They moved into the home where Zélie had her offices, on the Rue Ste. Blaise. Louis traveled a lot getting orders for the Point d'Alençon. He also did designs for the lace, being an accomplished artist. He was often away on business. We see references to this in Zélie's correspondence: "Your father is away." And we notice that he was away when Thérèse was born.


 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #143 on: September 23, 2019, 05:23:20 AM »
I know you don't want tradition to be dead in 20 years, so you must be in favor of large families. I know you want people to obey the laws of God, so you must not be in favor of abortion or contraception. You must realize that in order to raise good children who love God, it is best for Mother's to stay home, so I cannot imagine you want us all out there earning two incomes per household. I will assume then that you understand exactly why things are "different" now then they were in the old days and would like to help. Let me know your thoughts.

Things are different now because Trads have decided to embrace the Vatican II novelty of bringing babies and toddlers to Mass.

Things are also different now because misguided Trad priests have decided to bank on the demographic option to the crisis in the Church.  They have some kind of fantasy that Trads can outbreed the Modernists and in a couple of centuries, maybe, might be a majority. Meanwhile, the baby and toddler chorus had become a non-stop addition to the liturgy.

And no-one needed great wealth to employ domestic help in St Therese's time.  Anyone we would term 'middle class' would have had the means to employ a home help at the very least.

As for strangers babysitting while Trad parents attend Mass.  Now that might indeed be a case for Social Services.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Bernadette

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #144 on: September 23, 2019, 06:21:17 AM »
yeah, St Therese's mom sent her to live with a wet nurse for the first years of her life...did not even raise her when she was a baby.....definitely a different world and absolutely not interested in that.

I thought she couldn't nurse Therese because of her breast cancer.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 06:24:27 AM by Bernadette »
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Offline Gardener

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #145 on: September 23, 2019, 08:07:51 AM »
Were it the norm, it wouldn't have been such a big deal to write about as it was written, and wouldn't serve as what I can tell is one of the few (only?) examples trotted out.

One example, the only one I seem to ever hear about, is indicative in my mind to show a lack of examples. One-offs are typically one-offs for a reason: they're one-off examples which fall outside the norm!

The claim is that pre-Vatican 2, infants and toddlers did not go to Mass. Therefore, the onus rests not on another to show it the case, but on the claimant to show the case, and 1 example from a particular region and period in time is insufficient to draw a conclusion. For by that one could argue for 13 year old boys acting as EMHC's, and outside of Mass at that! (St. Tarcisius, pray for us).

But, what we do know is that The Didiscalia has a specific chapter dedicated to Mass and the reality of lay structure in its context. Children (with no specification given otherwise) states where they should be, which means that they were commonly there. As this was not a document for a mere village, but an accepted document about as close to universal as one can hope of the period outside of Scripture, this is far more compelling than a particular family in France at a particular time, who experienced an unusual set of circumstances such that the reality of it was a big enough deal to make its conveyed tone seem... unusual.

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CHAPTER XII

To Bishops: that they should be peaceable.

[ii. 57] And you the bishops, be not hard, nor tyrannical, nor wrathful, and be not rough with the people of God which is delivered into your hands. And destroy not the Lord's house nor scatter His people; but convert all, that you may be helpers with God; and gather the faithful with much meekness and long-suffering and patience, and without anger, and with doctrine and exhortation, as ministers of the kingdom everlasting.

And in your congregations in the holy churches hold your assemblies with all decent order, and appoint the places for the brethren with care and gravity. And for the presbyters let there be assigned a place in the eastern part of the house; and let the bishop's throne be set in their midst, and let the presbyters sit with him. And again, let the lay men sit in another part of the house toward the east. For so it should be, that in the eastern part of the house the presbyters sit with the bishops, and next the lay men, and then the women that when you stand up to pray, the rulers may stand first, and after them the lay men, and then the women also. For it is required that you pray toward the east, as knowing [[120]] that which is written: Give ye glory to God, who rideth upon the heaven of heavens toward the east [Ps 67.34 LXX].

But of the deacons let one stand always by the oblations of the Eucharist; and let another stand without by the door and observe them that come in; and afterwards, when you offer, let them minister together in the Church. And if anyone be found sitting out of his place, let the deacon who is within reprove him and make him to rise up and sit in a place that is meet for him. For our Lord likened the Church to a fold; for as we see the dumb animals, oxen and sheep (p. 57) and goats, lie down and rise up, and feed and chew the cud, according to their families, and none of them separate itself from its kind; and (see) the wild beasts also severally range with their like upon the mountains:? so likewise in the Church ought those who are young to sit apart, if there be room, and if not to stand up; and those who are advanced in years to sit apart. And let the children stand on one side, or let their fathers and mothers take them to them; and let them stand up. And let the young girls also sit apart; but if there be no room, let them stand up behind the women. And let the young women who are married and have children stand apart, and the aged women and widows sit apart. And let the deacon see that each of them on entering goes to his place, that no one may sit out of his place. And let the deacon also see that no one whispers, or falls asleep, or laughs, or makes signs. For so it should be, that with decency and decorum they watch in the Church, with ears attentive to the word of the Lord.

[ii. 58] But if any brother or sister come from another congregation, let the deacon question her and learn whether she is married, or again whether she is a widow (who is) a believer; and whether she is a daughter of the Church, or belongs perchance to one of the heresies; and then let him conduct her and set her in a place that is suitable for her. But if a [[122]] presbyter should come from another congregation, do you the presbyters receive him with fellowship into your place. And if it be a bishop, let him sit with the bishop; and let him accord him the honour of his rank, even as himself. And do thou, O bishop, invite him to discourse to thy people; for the exhortation and admonition of strangers is very profitable, especially as it is written:? There is no prophet that is acceptable in his own place [Lk 4.24]. And when you offer the oblation, let him speak. But if he is wise and gives the honour to thee, and is unwilling to offer, at least let him speak over the cup.? But if, as you are sitting, some one else should come, whether a man or a woman, who has some worldly honour, either of the same district or of another congregation:? thou, O bishop, if thou art speaking the word of God, or hearing, or reading, shalt not respect (p. 58) persons and leave the ministry of thy word and appoint them a place; but do thou remain still as thou art and not interrupt thy word, and let the brethren themselves receive them. And if there be no place, let one of the brethren who is full of charity and loves his brethren, and is one fitted to do an honour, rise and give them place, and himself stand up. But if, while younger men or women sit, an older man or woman should rise and give up their place, do thou, O deacon, scan those who sit, and see which man or woman of them is younger than the rest, and make them stand up, and cause him to sit who had risen and given up his place; and him whom thou hast caused to stand up, lead away and make him to stand behind his neighbours:? that others also may be trained and learn to give place to those more honourable than themselves. But if a poor man or woman should come [cf. Jas 2.2], (whether of the same district) [[124]] or of another congregation, and especially if they are stricken in years, and there be no place for such, do thou, O bishop, with all thy heart provide a place for them, even if thou have to sit upon the ground; that thou be not as one who respects the persons of men, but that thy ministry may be acceptable with God.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didascalia.html
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #146 on: September 23, 2019, 08:35:56 AM »
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Things are different now because Trads have decided to embrace the Vatican II novelty of bringing babies and toddlers to Mass.

This is not true.  For one, I still don't think it's been proven that it is a Vatican II novelty.  One example does not equal full proof.  Nothing has been written on the topic, that I can find, to prove what was normal either way.  So, at best, we really don't know what the traditional practice was.  For another, and I'm speaking for myself here, it's not so much that I've made a conscious and intentional decision to accept a practice that goes against tradition (which, as I said before, I'm still not convinced it even does); it's more that I simply have no choice.  Many Catholics, with and without children alike, travel long distances to attend a Latin Mass , through absolutely no fault of their own.  Babysitting for that is just not feasible.  A nursing mother cannot leave her baby that long.  It would be cruel,for the child wot be starving by the time she got home, and the babysitter would be helpless to do anything about it - assuming I could even find one I trust enough to hire for that length of time on a Sunday.  For another, babysitting is not cheap. The going rate where I am is somewhere around $15/hour.  While my husband does provide well for us, we also have a very large family, which is expensive to provide for in this economy.  Society is not conducive to large, Catholic families anymore.  It's a shame, but it is the reality.  Hiring a babysitter every Sunday for the duration of most women's birthing and child raising years, would be more financial burden than the majority of families could afford, even the middle class ones, considering many Catholic mother's will be having babies and nursing for upwards of 20 years, give or take.  As far as I know, The Church gives a woman a 6 weeks dispensation for attending Mass after the birth of her child.  After that, she must start attending again under pain of mortal sin.  In our current reality, we have to do the best we can.  Yes, I agree the noise is a problem.  But, the solution to leave babies and toddlers at home is not a viable one for many, many people - even if the family would like to.  Therefore, we must look to other ways to figure out how to minimize it.  As I've pointed out earlier, babies and toddlers making noise is NOT inevitable.  I've seen much evidence to the contrary, and have successfully achieved that goal personally.  I think a good start to the problem would be to talk or one's priest, if it's an issue in one's parish (it's not in mine). Maybe he's unaware of how bothersome it is to people? Hopefully, he would be glad to work with the souls in his flock to figure out a better way to accommodate both sides of the coin: the very real need for parents to fulfill their Sunday obligation and the very real need for respect for quiet that is conducive to reverence at Mass (silence which I have experienced on many occasions, even in a church with a baby and toddler in just about every other pew).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 08:46:11 AM by MundaCorMeum »
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #147 on: September 23, 2019, 08:58:40 AM »
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CHAPTER XII

To Bishops: that they should be peaceable.

[ii. 57] And you the bishops, be not hard, nor tyrannical, nor wrathful, and be not rough with the people of God which is delivered into your hands. And destroy not the Lord's house nor scatter His people; but convert all, that you may be helpers with God; and gather the faithful with much meekness and long-suffering and patience, and without anger, and with doctrine and exhortation, as ministers of the kingdom everlasting.

And in your congregations in the holy churches hold your assemblies with all decent order, and appoint the places for the brethren with care and gravity. And for the presbyters let there be assigned a place in the eastern part of the house; and let the bishop's throne be set in their midst, and let the presbyters sit with him. And again, let the lay men sit in another part of the house toward the east. For so it should be, that in the eastern part of the house the presbyters sit with the bishops, and next the lay men, and then the women that when you stand up to pray, the rulers may stand first, and after them the lay men, and then the women also. For it is required that you pray toward the east, as knowing [[120]] that which is written: Give ye glory to God, who rideth upon the heaven of heavens toward the east [Ps 67.34 LXX].

But of the deacons let one stand always by the oblations of the Eucharist; and let another stand without by the door and observe them that come in; and afterwards, when you offer, let them minister together in the Church. And if anyone be found sitting out of his place, let the deacon who is within reprove him and make him to rise up and sit in a place that is meet for him. For our Lord likened the Church to a fold; for as we see the dumb animals, oxen and sheep (p. 57) and goats, lie down and rise up, and feed and chew the cud, according to their families, and none of them separate itself from its kind; and (see) the wild beasts also severally range with their like upon the mountains:? so likewise in the Church ought those who are young to sit apart, if there be room, and if not to stand up; and those who are advanced in years to sit apart. And let the children stand on one side, or let their fathers and mothers take them to them; and let them stand up. And let the young girls also sit apart; but if there be no room, let them stand up behind the women. And let the young women who are married and have children stand apart, and the aged women and widows sit apart. And let the deacon see that each of them on entering goes to his place, that no one may sit out of his place. And let the deacon also see that no one whispers, or falls asleep, or laughs, or makes signs. For so it should be, that with decency and decorum they watch in the Church, with ears attentive to the word of the Lord.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didascalia.html

The entire text you quoted refers to children, not babies and toddlers which is the issue here. 

And you failed to bold this part.

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And let the deacon also see that no one whispers, or falls asleep, or laughs, or makes signs. For so it should be, that with decency and decorum they watch in the Church, with ears attentive to the word of the Lord.

No whispering at Mass, or even laughing …..

How would that go down today?  Would you accept it?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 09:00:13 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #148 on: September 23, 2019, 09:57:15 AM »
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The entire text you quoted refers to children, not babies and toddlers which is the issue here.

Usually when people use the term "children", they use it to mean children of any age.  They aren't intending to exclude particular ages, unless they note otherwise.  So, it's not a fair assumption to say that "children" doesn't include babies and toddlers, since it typically does.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #149 on: September 23, 2019, 10:49:47 AM »
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The entire text you quoted refers to children, not babies and toddlers which is the issue here.

Usually when people use the term "children", they use it to mean children of any age.  They aren't intending to exclude particular ages, unless they note otherwise.  So, it's not a fair assumption to say that "children" doesn't include babies and toddlers, since it typically does.

The example Gardener quoted includes standing and seating arrangements for children who are old enough to stand and sit.

This implies that the children being referred to are not babies and toddlers.

And yet Gardener used this example to argue that babies and toddlers have always been taken to Mass. 




And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.