Author Topic: My liberal church finally went over the edge.  (Read 7143 times)

Offline Aeternitus

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2019, 05:31:30 AM »

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

I am interested in your offer of a solution.
Married father and mother with 6 children, two under 3 and another on the way, one TLM on Sunday at 10 a.m and a midweek mass every day at  11 a.m. and they live 45 minutes away.  The father works Monday to Friday and the mum home schools.  Her (mum) parents are elderly and she has a hands on active part in their daily lives taking care of essentials.

What do you propose this family does to accommodate your situation.

I have a suggestion. 

Run an anonymous poll at your parish to determine if any of the parishioners find the noise of babies and toddlers disturbing in any way and detrimental to their own devout attendance at Mass.  Make it clear you want complete honesty and not that people should answer it from an “offering it up” perspective, afraid they will lose any merit they have spent years acquiring if they answer in the affirmative.   

If the response is no, relax and carry on as is.  It is obviously not a problem at your parish, for whatever reason and you have done your best. It may be these findings need to be reviewed periodically in the event of new Mass attendees. 

If, however, the answer is yes and you have no available support network close by who could assist with child minding on Sundays or occasional Sundays, then take the initiative in doing what you can to ensure that some of those mid-week Masses are not attended by all babies and young children, not just your own.   Present the case to the priest and other mothers on behalf of your fellow parishioners and discuss what mid-week, baby/tot - free days works best for all concerned.   You are the one on this forum and the issue has been brought to your attention.  The other mothers may have never given it a moment’s thought.   I certainly did not think about this at all until I read this thread.  Even bringing it to their attention alone may make them more aware and vigilant.       

In reading this thread, it seems to me, Awkward’s argument has largely been against the fact that he/she is the one who is expected to be more tolerant and accepting of a situation that is a result, not of traditional practice, but due to the crisis in the Church.  Awkward provided the example of St Therese of Lisieux being kept at home as a young child, because she was considered too young to attend Mass.  This example was not one from the middle ages, but much more recent – less than 150 years ago.  And it was the example of a saint.  If people deny it then the onus is on them to provide evidence to the contrary.  I have seen no counter argument to this example, other than the claim of the current crisis in the Church, which I agree is a very strong argument in favour of departing from what was considered normal/acceptable practice.   

But I fail to see why the focus should be on people like Awkward becoming more tolerant, charitable and saintly in these difficult times.  Parents of very young children should be just as tolerant, charitable and saintly towards their fellow parishioners, who have probably suffered a considerable amount themselves in holding fast to the Faith.    Let’s be honest here, this is not about any detriment to the babes and toddlers not attending Mass.  To make it so is a false argument and nothing less than emotional blackmail.   This is about what takes priority – Awkward and co or the parents’ of young babies and toddlers.  Why not work it out together?  Sunday Mass may still be a trial for those affected by noise and disturbance, as it is highly unlikely all those with very young children would be able to have alternative child-minding arrangements available.    But at least those who are sensitive to noise and disruption, for whatever reason, may have the opportunity to attend one or two quiet mid-week Masses when time and circumstance permit.  They would be in a  better position to plan their lives around these days if a regular routine is adopted.   And, as a result, may be forever grateful for your consideration in acknowledging the legitimacy of their problem, which is as a result of the legitimacy of your own (and other parents’) difficult situation.       
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2019, 06:52:33 AM »

Meanwhile, I have another solution.  You, and others, could stop taking this so personally.  You, and others, could try not reacting so emotionally to this problem and start to accept that there's an issue here that might, just might, be open to a discussion that could lead to reasonable and nuanced solutions.

I am interested in your offer of a solution.
Married father and mother with 6 children, two under 3 and another on the way, one TLM on Sunday at 10 a.m and a midweek mass every day at  11 a.m. and they live 45 minutes away.  The father works Monday to Friday and the mum home schools.  Her (mum) parents are elderly and she has a hands on active part in their daily lives taking care of essentials.

What do you propose this family does to accommodate your situation.

I have a suggestion. 

Run an anonymous poll at your parish to determine if any of the parishioners find the noise of babies and toddlers disturbing in any way and detrimental to their own devout attendance at Mass.  Make it clear you want complete honesty and not that people should answer it from an “offering it up” perspective, afraid they will lose any merit they have spent years acquiring if they answer in the affirmative.   

If the response is no, relax and carry on as is.  It is obviously not a problem at your parish, for whatever reason and you have done your best. It may be these findings need to be reviewed periodically in the event of new Mass attendees. 

If, however, the answer is yes and you have no available support network close by who could assist with child minding on Sundays or occasional Sundays, then take the initiative in doing what you can to ensure that some of those mid-week Masses are not attended by all babies and young children, not just your own.   Present the case to the priest and other mothers on behalf of your fellow parishioners and discuss what mid-week, baby/tot - free days works best for all concerned.   You are the one on this forum and the issue has been brought to your attention.  The other mothers may have never given it a moment’s thought.   I certainly did not think about this at all until I read this thread.  Even bringing it to their attention alone may make them more aware and vigilant.       

In reading this thread, it seems to me, Awkward’s argument has largely been against the fact that he/she is the one who is expected to be more tolerant and accepting of a situation that is a result, not of traditional practice, but due to the crisis in the Church.  Awkward provided the example of St Therese of Lisieux being kept at home as a young child, because she was considered too young to attend Mass.  This example was not one from the middle ages, but much more recent – less than 150 years ago.  And it was the example of a saint.  If people deny it then the onus is on them to provide evidence to the contrary.  I have seen no counter argument to this example, other than the claim of the current crisis in the Church, which I agree is a very strong argument in favour of departing from what was considered normal/acceptable practice.   

But I fail to see why the focus should be on people like Awkward becoming more tolerant, charitable and saintly in these difficult times.  Parents of very young children should be just as tolerant, charitable and saintly towards their fellow parishioners, who have probably suffered a considerable amount themselves in holding fast to the Faith.    Let’s be honest here, this is not about any detriment to the babes and toddlers not attending Mass.  To make it so is a false argument and nothing less than emotional blackmail.   This is about what takes priority – Awkward and co or the parents’ of young babies and toddlers.  Why not work it out together?  Sunday Mass may still be a trial for those affected by noise and disturbance, as it is highly unlikely all those with very young children would be able to have alternative child-minding arrangements available.    But at least those who are sensitive to noise and disruption, for whatever reason, may have the opportunity to attend one or two quiet mid-week Masses when time and circumstance permit.  They would be in a  better position to plan their lives around these days if a regular routine is adopted.   And, as a result, may be forever grateful for your consideration in acknowledging the legitimacy of their problem, which is as a result of the legitimacy of your own (and other parents’) difficult situation.     

If you read the other thread which did this topic to death, every sympathy was given to awkward especially me as I have and totally understand the agitation noise does to your brain. Suggestions were made including ear plugs (as previously said I could have hugged the older man in my parish when he did this and didn't take offense to it) . The problem with awkward is there is NO effort in understanding our position, NO acknowledgement of our predicament and all done in an extremely hostile aggressive tone to the point that (not by him but entertained by him) the suggestion that parents willfully neglect their children by starving them. How insulting. If any one has a 'put up shut up' tone it's awkward.
Here's the thing, by and large trad kids are very well behaved, not perfect but actually a credit to parents who are dealing with modern onslaughts daily but that's not enough for awkward, HE WANTS complete silence and therefore he is adamant he should get it. Life doesn't work like that.
As.i said in previous thread, most people are annoying, should I take a poll on whether garlic eaten before mass should be banned.....I just endured an hour of sitting behind a person who always reeks of garlic (lovely person I should add). Should I take a poll on old people who shuffle in with a very annoying clickety clack walking stick which is very disturbing . I could go on but I won't.
I have done my best with my children and stood in freezing cold vestibules to quieten a fussy child as most and frankly all in my parish have done, so as not to disturb other mass goers so I'm not going to be made feel guilty for attending to my Sunday duty to God and attending to my children's Catholic formation because one person whom I have sympathy for but has an unrelenting unbendable fixation on his needs above the good of families.

I'm not going to post anymore on this anyway and I can still enjoy his posts but on this topic he is blindingly uncooperative.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 06:55:02 AM by diaduit »
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #107 on: September 15, 2019, 07:06:44 AM »
.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 07:10:27 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #108 on: September 15, 2019, 07:20:46 AM »
It has been far from proven that tradition, little t or big T, is that babies / infants did not go to Mass.  The entire evidence presented thus far in this thread and the prior one on this matter is as follows:

1) St. Therese did not go as a baby
2) Cry rooms existed prior to VII
3) Babies and infants have attended Mass for as long as any living person's memory shows across the planet

None of this is sufficient to prove that babies / infants have always attended Mass, or never attended Mass until the past century.  The singular example brought forth is St. Therese and that may merely be 1) her family 2) her local culture 3) that specific period in time (or any combination of those things).

I think the question is actually quite interesting and I've poked around online trying to sleuth it out and found absolutely nothing.  The best I can find is that there are child saints whom expressed deep devotion to Christ when ~5 years old.  But that does not really indicate Mass attendance at what age. 

I also recall documentaries on the Medieval times which showed well worn wood around the corner posts of back pews, which the anthropologist suggested indicated that the villagers were tying up sheep or dogs in the back.  Also suggested was that the back of the Church was used as a lavatory during the freezing months.  I am cautious to believe anything said about the Medieval time since moderns hate it so much, but I am merely reporting what I have heard before and offering it as maybe an instance where Medieval Mass was not quite as serene as we think.

I also read of at least one Medieval noble lady whom attended Mass alone, but that was because at those times noble women did not nurse nor care for their own children, that was the task of the wetnurse, hence it is no surprise that the noble did not have her baby with her.  This says nothing about what the peasants were doing.

And that is the crux of it all - we really have very little clue what the peasants were doing.  No one cared to write about the lives of the peasants and the peasants were illiterate and hence wrote nothing about themselves.  As far as I can tell we have close to zero information to determine the status of the presence / absence of babies / infants at Mass throughout the ages and locations.

My understanding of Mass at the Orthodox Church is that it involves people freely walking in and out.  That seems rather noisy to me, but maybe I am wrong.
 
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Offline Aeternitus

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2019, 07:55:32 AM »
It has been far from proven that tradition, little t or big T, is that babies / infants did not go to Mass.  The entire evidence presented thus far in this thread and the prior one on this matter is as follows:

1) St. Therese did not go as a baby
2) Cry rooms existed prior to VII
3) Babies and infants have attended Mass for as long as any living person's memory shows across the planet

None of this is sufficient to prove that babies / infants have always attended Mass, or never attended Mass until the past century.  The singular example brought forth is St. Therese and that may merely be 1) her family 2) her local culture 3) that specific period in time (or any combination of those things).

I think the question is actually quite interesting and I've poked around online trying to sleuth it out and found absolutely nothing.  The best I can find is that there are child saints whom expressed deep devotion to Christ when ~5 years old.  But that does not really indicate Mass attendance at what age. 

I also recall documentaries on the Medieval times which showed well worn wood around the corner posts of back pews, which the anthropologist suggested indicated that the villagers were tying up sheep or dogs in the back.  Also suggested was that the back of the Church was used as a lavatory during the freezing months.  I am cautious to believe anything said about the Medieval time since moderns hate it so much, but I am merely reporting what I have heard before and offering it as maybe an instance where Medieval Mass was not quite as serene as we think.

I also read of at least one Medieval noble lady whom attended Mass alone, but that was because at those times noble women did not nurse nor care for their own children, that was the task of the wetnurse, hence it is no surprise that the noble did not have her baby with her.  This says nothing about what the peasants were doing.

And that is the crux of it all - we really have very little clue what the peasants were doing.  No one cared to write about the lives of the peasants and the peasants were illiterate and hence wrote nothing about themselves.  As far as I can tell we have close to zero information to determine the status of the presence / absence of babies / infants at Mass throughout the ages and locations.

My understanding of Mass at the Orthodox Church is that it involves people freely walking in and out.  That seems rather noisy to me, but maybe I am wrong.


Yes, I find this topic interesting too and also have been trying to find out more.  What I did read today was that pews as such, did not come into being until after the reformation and that in the Middle Ages people stood and knelt rather than sat, which may or may not be true, but would allow for a more noiseless departure, one would think.   

Can you please point me to the evidence that cry rooms existed prior to VII?  All I could find was that they came into being in the 60s and 70s. 

Thank you for your input.  Please note if I don't reply quickly it is not because I am not interested in your research, but only because I have very limited time. 
 

Offline Aeternitus

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2019, 08:19:12 AM »

If you read the other thread which did this topic to death, every sympathy was given to awkward especially me as I have and totally understand the agitation noise does to your brain. Suggestions were made including ear plugs (as previously said I could have hugged the older man in my parish when he did this and didn't take offense to it) . The problem with awkward is there is NO effort in understanding our position, NO acknowledgement of our predicament and all done in an extremely hostile aggressive tone to the point that (not by him but entertained by him) the suggestion that parents willfully neglect their children by starving them. How insulting. If any one has a 'put up shut up' tone it's awkward.
Here's the thing, by and large trad kids are very well behaved, not perfect but actually a credit to parents who are dealing with modern onslaughts daily but that's not enough for awkward, HE WANTS complete silence and therefore he is adamant he should get it. Life doesn't work like that.
As.i said in previous thread, most people are annoying, should I take a poll on whether garlic eaten before mass should be banned.....I just endured an hour of sitting behind a person who always reeks of garlic (lovely person I should add). Should I take a poll on old people who shuffle in with a very annoying clickety clack walking stick which is very disturbing . I could go on but I won't.
I have done my best with my children and stood in freezing cold vestibules to quieten a fussy child as most and frankly all in my parish have done, so as not to disturb other mass goers so I'm not going to be made feel guilty for attending to my Sunday duty to God and attending to my children's Catholic formation because one person whom I have sympathy for but has an unrelenting unbendable fixation on his needs above the good of families.

I'm not going to post anymore on this anyway and I can still enjoy his posts but on this topic he is blindingly uncooperative.

No worries, Diaduit.    

As I said in my first post on this thread, I see both sides of this.  I am not sure of the solution or even if there is one, until the current crisis we are living through is resolved.  I agree with Awkward’s understanding of what the Mass should be in normal times.  A silent offering to God in which we adore Him and give him the honour which is due to Him, thank Him, appease His justice and implore grace and mercy for ourselves and those for whom we should pray.   A sung Mass doesn’t detract from this “silence”, as one saint (can’t remember who) said that singing praises to God was akin to praying twice.  It lifts the soul.     

But we don’t live in normal times.  Parents have an enormously tough job, rearing children without the support of family, schools and communities, in many instances.  Priests and religious are overworked and spread thin on the ground.   Others have lost family and friends due to their adherence to the true Faith and find themselves alone in the raging sea of the world, struggling to secure their spot on the Ark of Salvation, which will never go under, but nevertheless is currently under siege from the storm of all storms. 

I think the only thing one can do in this situation is our best to help each other where we can, which will undoubtedly involve compromise.  Of course I don’t mean compromising the Faith in any way.   

 


 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2019, 09:41:04 AM »
The problem with awkward is there is NO effort in understanding our position, NO acknowledgement of our predicament and all done in an extremely hostile aggressive tone to the point that (not by him but entertained by him) the suggestion that parents willfully neglect their children by starving them. How insulting. If any one has a 'put up shut up' tone it's awkward.

You are grossly misinterpreting my position.

On the other thread I made repeated references to the difficulties faced by Catholic parents today.  Over and over again I tried to find some kind of middle ground where views could be exchanged in a non-rageful way.  But no-one was interested.  As on this thread, posters seem only concerned with shooting down my arguments with endless personal insults.

The poster who made the joke comment about parents starving their children was making a rhetorical point.  You are supposed to know that the statement shouldn't be taken seriously, simply because it was so outrageous that it couldn't be taken seriously.  I understood this immediately and assumed that others would too.

Quote
HE WANTS complete silence and therefore he is adamant he should get it. Life doesn't work like that.

I have never said I want complete silence as this would be ridiculous.  But this doesn't stop yourself and Miriam from insisting that this is exactly what I want.

The beautiful silence of the TLM does not depend on imposing silence.  It depends upon excluding noise and disturbance.

I can only assume that you have never experienced it, which is YOUR loss.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
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Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #112 on: September 15, 2019, 09:52:38 AM »
BTW it was me who suggested ear plugs.  An elderly gentleman in my parish put in ear plugs one day when I was at midweek mass with my little one.  I was so grateful to him for taking it upon himself to sort out what was a distraction for him and I was not a bit put out.

Since you don't hold back in your comments, I'll share here what came to mind when I read this.

You chose to introduce noise and disturbance to a weekday Mass.  You chose to be the cause of someone having to wear earbuds at Mass.  You are under no obligation to attend a weekday Mass, but you chose to, knowing full well that you will create noise and disturbance for your fellow Mass goers. Are you entirely unaware of the effects of your choices, or do you just assume you have the right and don't care?

If the "elderly gentleman" who you obliged to wear earbuds had, instead, complained about the noise and disturbance you chose to introduce to Mass, would he have suddenly become an old, bitter, twisted, curmudgeon who probably hates his neighbours kids?

These are the insults that have been hurled at me on this thread for questioning YOUR right to disturb every Mass you attend.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Innocent Smith

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #113 on: September 15, 2019, 11:10:41 AM »
BTW it was me who suggested ear plugs.  An elderly gentleman in my parish put in ear plugs one day when I was at midweek mass with my little one.  I was so grateful to him for taking it upon himself to sort out what was a distraction for him and I was not a bit put out.

Since you don't hold back in your comments, I'll share here what came to mind when I read this.

You chose to introduce noise and disturbance to a weekday Mass.  You chose to be the cause of someone having to wear earbuds at Mass.  You are under no obligation to attend a weekday Mass, but you chose to, knowing full well that you will create noise and disturbance for your fellow Mass goers. Are you entirely unaware of the effects of your choices, or do you just assume you have the right and don't care?

If the "elderly gentleman" who you obliged to wear earbuds had, instead, complained about the noise and disturbance you chose to introduce to Mass, would he have suddenly become an old, bitter, twisted, curmudgeon who probably hates his neighbours kids?

These are the insults that have been hurled at me on this thread for questioning YOUR right to disturb every Mass you attend.

That's just great that the "old fart" had to put in earplugs. I bet that sea shell noise really added to him being able to assist.

The responses here simply prove the point that I tried to make earlier. They made the effort to attend the TLM. They will be damned before they miss one second of it due to a crying or noisy child.

And by the way, I notice lots of Trad parents raising idiot kids. Many cannot look another adult in the eye, say hello, or even shake hands with a friend of their parents. So don't tell me that home schooling does not effect socialization.

Then they run wild after Mass. Clearly they have not been given any requirements or initiation into proper deportment.

I also instruct my children and we always manage to read all the Propers and discuss the nature of the Mass we are to attend the evening before and the tone of the day within the Liturgical Year.

So, they are well prepared.

Don't expect to get a pat on the back here, but thought I would mention it, since I certainly don't get any credit from my fellow parishioners. At least not those hard core home schooling types. I do receive compliments, as do my children, from the classier people who we know. They're usually older and have already finished raising their kids and must have done a proper job themselves.
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #114 on: September 15, 2019, 11:32:57 AM »
Yes, I find this topic interesting too and also have been trying to find out more.  What I did read today was that pews as such, did not come into being until after the reformation and that in the Middle Ages people stood and knelt rather than sat, which may or may not be true, but would allow for a more noiseless departure, one would think.   

Can you please point me to the evidence that cry rooms existed prior to VII?  All I could find was that they came into being in the 60s and 70s. 

Thank you for your input.  Please note if I don't reply quickly it is not because I am not interested in your research, but only because I have very limited time.

I have a thing about Pews. Pews are Protestant.  I've often wondered by the Church chose to dismantle Rood screens and introduce the dreaded pews. 

Medieval Churches were arranged in a similar way to traditional Russian Orthodox churches.  The Sanctuary was behind the Rood Screen, there were no pews and people stood or knelt in the knave.  There were benches lining the side aisles where people could sit, hence the exression' the weak can go to the wall'.

I have been to a Sunday, Russian Orthodox church where this was the arrangement.  This was the most liberating liturgical experience I have ever had.  If you want to prostrate yourself before the Iconostasis, you can.  If you simply wish to stand or kneel in the knave, you can.  If you want to venerate an icon, you can.

Yes, there was lots of movement because the service lasts 1 1/2 hours.  But the movement was all in the side aisles where people also sat to rest.  Somehow, this arrangement allowed the nave to remain an area of peace. There was also a lovely courtyard.  People came and went, a lot, but still there was peace.

And yes, there were babies and toddlers, but somehow the arrangement minimised the disturbance.  Part of the problem, for me at least, is being stuck in a pew.  I've posted my opinion about pews before.

An excellent source of info on Medieval parish life for peasant and noble alike is 'The Stripping of the Altars', by Eamon Duffy.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #115 on: September 15, 2019, 12:06:41 PM »
BTW it was me who suggested ear plugs.  An elderly gentleman in my parish put in ear plugs one day when I was at midweek mass with my little one.  I was so grateful to him for taking it upon himself to sort out what was a distraction for him and I was not a bit put out.

Since you don't hold back in your comments, I'll share here what came to mind when I read this.

You chose to introduce noise and disturbance to a weekday Mass.  You chose to be the cause of someone having to wear earbuds at Mass.  You are under no obligation to attend a weekday Mass, but you chose to, knowing full well that you will create noise and disturbance for your fellow Mass goers. Are you entirely unaware of the effects of your choices, or do you just assume you have the right and don't care?

If the "elderly gentleman" who you obliged to wear earbuds had, instead, complained about the noise and disturbance you chose to introduce to Mass, would he have suddenly become an old, bitter, twisted, curmudgeon who probably hates his neighbours kids?

These are the insults that have been hurled at me on this thread for questioning YOUR right to disturb every Mass you attend.

That's just great that the "old fart" had to put in earplugs. I bet that sea shell noise really added to him being able to assist.

The responses here simply prove the point that I tried to make earlier. They made the effort to attend the TLM. They will be damned before they miss one second of it due to a crying or noisy child.

And by the way, I notice lots of Trad parents raising idiot kids. Many cannot look another adult in the eye, say hello, or even shake hands with a friend of their parents. So don't tell me that home schooling does not effect socialization.

Then they run wild after Mass. Clearly they have not been given any requirements or initiation into proper deportment.

I also instruct my children and we always manage to read all the Propers and discuss the nature of the Mass we are to attend the evening before and the tone of the day within the Liturgical Year.

So, they are well prepared.

Don't expect to get a pat on the back here, but thought I would mention it, since I certainly don't get any credit from my fellow parishioners. At least not those hard core home schooling types. I do receive compliments, as do my children, from the classier people who we know. They're usually older and have already finished raising their kids and must have done a proper job themselves.

We actually also read the Mass readings prior to Mass, which does help.  The children and I read the saint of the day, introit and collect every morning during morning prayer, too.  And, before we start a school, we read the Epistle and Gospel for the day, as well.  I like to keep us in tune with the liturgical year, since we are not able to attend daily Mass.

We also receive compliments on our children's behavior....both at Mass and other places: doctors offices, restaurants, grocery stores.   We've had fellow patrons of restaurants pay for our meal on several occasions, because they were so impressed with how well our kids behaved.  And, since you brought up hand shakes, we've also had many men compliment our boys (12 and 8 ) on how they looked them in the eye and gave them a firm handshake. 

It's not homeschooling or bringing babies and toddlers to Mass in and of themselves that is the problem.  I've seen many parents successfully keep ALL their children quiet at Mass, regardless of age. And I know many wonderful homeschool families with lovely, polite children.   It's society at large.  I also know and have seen many children who have poor social and behavior skills... homeschooled and public/private schooled alike.  They can't even bother themselves to look away from their handheld devices long enough to acknowledge that there is anyone else in the room with them, let alone look someone in the eye and say something polite.  Heck, many grown adults are the same!  It's no wonder kids are lacking in social skills. 

Kids will be as bad as you let them, and as good as you expect them to be.  There is definitely some truth to that.  Societal expectations are just so low in regards to behavior, morality, modesty, social norms, etc. that there is simply no motivation for parents to raise the bar with their children.  It is unfortunate, for sure. 

« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 08:51:52 PM by MundaCorMeum »
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #116 on: September 15, 2019, 12:14:03 PM »
My understanding of Mass at the Orthodox Church is that it involves people freely walking in and out.  That seems rather noisy to me, but maybe I am wrong.

This is broadly true, though there are certain times during the Liturgy in which walking in and out is frowned upon (during the Gospel, the anaphora, etc.). There's a whole lot more "commotion" during Orthodox services in general—lighting candles, kissing icons, etc. It's not generally noisy, but could be distracting to someone not used to it. If one were to observe the full panoply of ancient Christian liturgies, the super-quiet Roman Low Mass is unusual, and perhaps entirely unique. Eastern Divine Liturgies (both Byzantine and other Eastern forms) are very rarely silent; when the priest is praying quietly, the deacon is either chanting a litany or the choir is singing. To be honest, no other liturgical tradition has anything like the Low Mass (namely, a shorter version of the Liturgy stripped of most ceremony and chant), so it's kind of difficult to compare to anything else.
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #117 on: September 15, 2019, 12:25:07 PM »
I recently found out that pews werent introducerad by protestants. There are 13th century legal documents where its specified that parishoners had to buy benches if they wanted them during mass. It was a legal document because the priests didnt have responsibility for the nave. (This was in some places in England.)
 

Offline dymphnaw

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2019, 12:41:24 PM »

[/quote]

This is just rude and blatantly false.  I don't know any traditional Catholic parent who neglects to feed their children, or thinks that their privalege to participate in Mass is higher than anyone else's.

Many if us do homeschool and travel far for Mass, though.  I will grant you that one.  Although, lots and lots of people travel far distances for Sunday Mass, regardless of if they have children or not.  I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of eggs in China, though.
[/quote]

You don't feed the kids because then  they'll have to go to the restroom at multiple times during the trip.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: My liberal church finally went over the edge.
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2019, 02:10:40 PM »
Medieval Churches were arranged in a similar way to traditional Russian Orthodox churches.  The Sanctuary was behind the Rood Screen, there were no pews and people stood or knelt in the knave.  There were benches lining the side aisles where people could sit, hence the exression' the weak can go to the wall'.

I have been to a Sunday, Russian Orthodox church where this was the arrangement.  This was the most liberating liturgical experience I have ever had.  If you want to prostrate yourself before the Iconostasis, you can.  If you simply wish to stand or kneel in the knave, you can.  If you want to venerate an icon, you can.

Yes, there was lots of movement because the service lasts 1 1/2 hours.  But the movement was all in the side aisles where people also sat to rest.  Somehow, this arrangement allowed the nave to remain an area of peace. There was also a lovely courtyard.  People came and went, a lot, but still there was peace.

And yes, there were babies and toddlers, but somehow the arrangement minimised the disturbance.  Part of the problem, for me at least, is being stuck in a pew.  I've posted my opinion about pews before.

An excellent source of info on Medieval parish life for peasant and noble alike is 'The Stripping of the Altars', by Eamon Duffy.

It really IS liberating, isn't it? I have unfortunately never found a pew-less Eastern church in communion with Rome in my area. If I did, I would join it in a heartbeat.