Author Topic: 13th Sun. after Pentecost or Nativity of the B.V.M. today?  (Read 779 times)

Offline Geremia

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13th Sun. after Pentecost or Nativity of the B.V.M. today?
« on: September 08, 2019, 06:31:11 PM »
Did you celebrate 13th Sun. after Pentecost today or Nativity of the B.V.M.?

The SSPX's Ordo for today says the former, but sedevacantists celebrated the latter.

Why have, up until the mid-'50s, these feasts been classified as "Semiduplex Dominica minor" and "Duplex II. classis," respectively, but from at least 1960 onward they've both been classified simply a "II. classis"?

Offline Prayerful

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Re: 13th Sun. after Pentecost or Nativity of the B.V.M. today?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2019, 06:47:34 PM »
The first, and I cannot think of any venue in Ireland where it would be otherwise, between diocesan, religious houses, SSPX and SSPX Resistance (hire rooms in hotels and I think a chapel in Co. Kerry). The homily, though was about raising money for the presbytery roof, via sponsor a tile, and he held a big tile while speaking from the pupit.



This Sunday focusing which happened between the fifties and early sixties, which eliminated most octaves and the accessible marking of many Feast, was retrograde, but I see limited prospect of change for now. Some FSSP parishes apparently are allowed some leeway with Holy Week, but for nearly all practicing Catholics will be experiencing the handywork of Mgsr Bugnini and allies for a long time.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: 13th Sun. after Pentecost or Nativity of the B.V.M. today?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 02:21:59 AM »
Did you celebrate 13th Sun. after Pentecost today or Nativity of the B.V.M.?

The SSPX's Ordo for today says the former, but sedevacantists celebrated the latter.

Why have, up until the mid-'50s, these feasts been classified as "Semiduplex Dominica minor" and "Duplex II. classis," respectively, but from at least 1960 onward they've both been classified simply a "II. classis"?

The rubrical reforms under John XXIII in 1960 eliminated the distinction between double, semidouble, and simple rite, and replaced the old rankings with I, II, and III class and commemorations (finishing the work of Pius XII, who had already begun to dismantle these distinctions of rite in 1956). III Class feasts falling on a Sunday are omitted; II Class feasts of the Lord may be celebrated on II Class Sundays (the Sunday is omitted), but II Class of other feasts are reduced to a commemoration at Lauds and Low Masses only. The loss of double-semidouble-simple was a destruction of a specifically Roman feature of the Roman liturgy and is to be lamented.

I'm happy to worship in the Byzantine rite, which finds a place for virtually everything without transferring anything—the Nativity of the Theotokos and the Sunday were happily celebrated together. Byzantine Catholics even celebrated the Annunciation and Good Friday on the same day in 2016.
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Offline Geremia

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Re: 13th Sun. after Pentecost or Nativity of the B.V.M. today?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2019, 05:03:29 PM »
Today's feast of the 7 Sorrows of the Blessed Virgin Mary suffered the same fate in the ecumenical, "Marian minimalism," 1960s Roman Calendar deforms.

Offline Geremia

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2nd Sun. of Advent > Immaculate Conception‽
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 06:43:12 PM »
It's ridiculous that in the U.S.'s 2019 Novus Ordo calendar, the Second Sunday of Advent took precedence over the Immaculate Conception, which was moved to Dec. 9 and deemed not a holyday of obligation!

Offline aquinas138

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Re: 2nd Sun. of Advent > Immaculate Conception‽
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 10:54:47 PM »
It's ridiculous that in the U.S.'s 2019 Novus Ordo calendar, the Second Sunday of Advent took precedence over the Immaculate Conception, which was moved to Dec. 9 and deemed not a holyday of obligation!

It is worth noting that before Divino Afflatu, that is, before 1911, the Second, Third, and Fourth Sundays of Advent took precedence over all feasts except duplex feasts of title, patron, or dedication, and only in the churches so dedicated; other duplex feasts, including the Immaculate Conception, were transferred to the first free day. In the US, the result would have been about the same as under Divino Afflatu because the Immaculate Conception is the principal patron of the US; however, in most churches in most countries, the Immaculate Conception would have been transferred to Monday. I am not sure the obligation to assist at Mass would have moved with transferred feasts back then—a lacuna in my knowledge for sure!
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Offline Geremia

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Re: 2nd Sun. of Advent > Immaculate Conception‽
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2019, 01:33:46 PM »
before Divino Afflatu, that is, before 1911, the Second, Third, and Fourth Sundays of Advent took precedence over all feasts except duplex feasts of title, patron, or dedication, and only in the churches so dedicated; other duplex feasts, including the Immaculate Conception
Aren't the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Sundays of Advent semiduplex of the 2nd class, and isn't the Immaculate Conception a duplex of the 1st class?

Offline aquinas138

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Re: 2nd Sun. of Advent > Immaculate Conception‽
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2019, 02:38:46 PM »
before Divino Afflatu, that is, before 1911, the Second, Third, and Fourth Sundays of Advent took precedence over all feasts except duplex feasts of title, patron, or dedication, and only in the churches so dedicated; other duplex feasts, including the Immaculate Conception
Aren't the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Sundays of Advent semiduplex of the 2nd class, and isn't the Immaculate Conception a duplex of the 1st class?

It's a little complicated, but yes you are right according to Divino Afflatu rubrics. However, according to the Breviarium Romanum from 1763 that I'm consulting, the Immaculate Conception would indeed have been transferred to Monday because, as of 1763, the feast was only a duplex of the SECOND class, which yields to a Sunday of the second class in the Tridentine rubrics. In 1763, the only feast of the Virgin that was first class was the Assumption; the Purification, Annunciation, Nativity, and Conception were all duplex second class.

The only feasts ranked duplex first class in 1763 are: Christmas, Epiphany, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunday, Easter Monday, Easter Tuesday, Ascension, Pentecost, Corpus Christi, Nativity of St. John the Baptist, Ss. Peter and Paul, Assumption, All Saints, proper Dedication of a Church, and the Patron or Title of a Church. From this list, only the Dedication, Patron, or Title would occur with the Sundays of Advent, so they are the only feasts in 1763 that would have outranked the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Sundays.

I'm not sure when the Immaculate Conception was elevated to duplex first class; it was a day of precept even as a duplex second class.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!