Author Topic: What books would you recommend for someone who is just figuring the crisis out?  (Read 422 times)

Offline Gerard

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This is bit of a take off on the Taylor Marshall "Infiltration" thread and a coincidentally relevant question that came up today. 

Okay. You've got trads that have been "trads" for decades who have figured out or found good explanations that helped explain things to them as they journeyed along. 

"Open letter to Confused Catholics" by LeFebfvre

"Trojan Horse in the City of God" by Hildebrand

"The Great Facade" by Ferrara and Woods

"While the Eyes of the Great are Elsewhere" by William Biersach

…and many more.

You've got online audio of lectures from the 70s, 80s 90 almost up to today. 

What books do you think can best explain the Crisis to someone today who is only now hearing that things went astray after Vatican II? 

Do you think the standard books that have been bandied about are going to resonate with someone in the post-JPII era who may have either been only nominally Catholic for decades or only grown up during the Benedict / Francis era? 

For example: Archbishop LeFebvre famously stated that it was the lack of scandal that the Assisi gatherings that demonstrated to him the level of crisis in the Church and motivated him towards the consecrations.  That actually betrays two things, the lack of scandal shows the damage that had been done and the shock of the Archbishop at the lack of scandal demonstrates that he was fairly insulated from the scope of the crisis while he was busy fighting it.  LeFebvre is virtually unheard of in the mainstream of the Church, the majority of Catholics don't know who he was, what he did and I doubt they might even understand what he was so upset about.  While we're at it, St. Pius X himself is virtually unknown in the mainstream Church. 

Similarly you can read some good Bishop Sheen from prior to the Council but you have to slog through the frequent comparisons and examples of Communism.  Unless you know the USSR that wouldn't seem relevant today. 

You would also have many of the issues of the Liturgy that no longer are as bad as they once were.  The "for all" vs "for many" battle, the more overt suppression to the point of almost criminalization when today the TLM is more widely available and criticism and oppression and suppression are more subtle than back in the day.  A TLM in the late 1970s or early 80s was a far, far bigger point of contention than it is today.  You had TLMs in houses and secret plannings.  Now you have (comparatively) numerous public offerings of the Mass. 

Do people, or would people even comprehend the doctrinal and liturgical scandals of JPII?  People are thinking the be all and end all of the crisis is the homo/pedo scandals. 


So..will the books written in the 70s through early 2000s actually resonate with a Catholic that has either no memory of the changes or is only aware of post- John Paul II Catholicism? 

If not…are there any out there that do address this? 

I don't know if the Taylor Marshall book actually does this or not….someone wrote that its basically a rehash of things trads know in their bones already,,but is that necessarily a bad thing if it's a fresh take with the eyes of someone less jaded than the majority of us are?




 
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Offline Gardener

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Mitre and crook, while fictional, explores the era of the Church just after Vatican 2. (Fr. Bryan Houghton)

Jesus Christ, Before He Became a Superstar (James K. Fitzpatrick) explores some of the theological and cultural sources and consequences from the era as well, but also shows how condemned/condemnable theologians, Prot and Catholic, are no different from the claptrap of today. Think of it as a slightly headier Death of Christian Culture. One might call it: If Mengele were a Theologian.

While these aren’t spoon feeding books, they do provide an interest context for the era which was the initial obvious explosion of heresy.
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Offline mikemac

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What books do you think can best explain the Crisis to someone today who is only now hearing that things went astray after Vatican II? 
...

Possibly 'The Permanent Instructions of the Alta Vendita' by John Vennari.  It's not long but gets to the point.

http://www.brizek.com/endtimes/altavend.htm
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 06:08:37 AM by mikemac »
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Online Davis Blank - EG

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I think one of the major positives of Dr. Marshall's book is that it is very popular because he is increasingly popular.  In general people trust what is current and what is popular.  While older texts might be far more edifying or correct, there is an innate and significant credibility discount people give to things which are not current.  Going out and delivering truth bombs is a sure fire way to solidify someone's opposition to whatever it is you are wishing to convince them of.  The process by which a person changes beliefs is very complex and mysterious indeed, but I can observe that some things have very positive influence, and some things very little or even invoke the opposite reaction.  Popular and current are two factors which significantly increase credibility, and those are things which Dr. Marshall has that very few Catholics have.

If a Catholic were to come to you and say "I think there is something wrong with the Church, it just doesn't feel right" then go recommend Dr. Marshall's book and his videos.  If a Catholic were to instead say "I never agreed with JPII and Assisi and I do not like women on the altar" then offer him instead "Open Letter to Confused Catholics."

People in general do not like being told that they are living a mistake.  But once a person is already suspicious of the current state of affairs, then they are open to change.  But that change again has to be within the scope of what they are suspicious of.  For example, if a Catholic were to say he thinks N.O. Mass is really boring and stupid, and you were to respond by offering the sedevacantist thesis, it will do nothing but send off warning signs in his mind.  But if instead you told him about the masculine Latin Mass and got him excited about that, and then once he is intrigued but laments that too bad that doesn't exist, you can inform him that a-ha, it does.

I disagree with the negative comments towards his book.  A book is not for every singe man.  It was not written to preach to the choir whom is already aware of what is going on.  It was written to the average Catholic who has a suspicion that there is something wrong but really doesn't know what he doesn't know, so little sound-bite chapters which highlight major problems within the Church is perfect for that such person.
 
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Offline diaduit

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Some very good points here.  Education today compared to even just 30 years ago, is very poor.  Reading material is so basic with no real substance so in fact most young adults now don't have the stamina for anything more than soundbites as David Blaine put it.


 

Offline bigbadtrad

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Looking back I wish I just learned the faith, the right liturgy and never learned any of the trad apologetics. Being informed in the crisis I've found only helps you to avoid the Novus Ordo, which is obvious once it apparent, but the cynicism and jadedness of realizing how messed up things are I don't find helps anyone after you get to know them.

My friend is much happier in the faith because he doesn't know all of this stuff. He once questioned why I even keep up on this stuff and once he asked it became obvious it's just a bad habit. One more story of this priest is a fag, or this pope believes in heresy, and I can't fathom how that gives you any more knowledge things are beyond messed up.

I would give them at most the Ottaviani Intervention, the the 1930's video of a Msgr. Sheen explaining the Mass, and the Ascent of Mt Carmel. I'd recommend they stay away from all apologetics.
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline Gerard

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Looking back I wish I just learned the faith, the right liturgy and never learned any of the trad apologetics. Being informed in the crisis I've found only helps you to avoid the Novus Ordo, which is obvious once it apparent, but the cynicism and jadedness of realizing how messed up things are I don't find helps anyone after you get to know them.

My friend is much happier in the faith because he doesn't know all of this stuff. He once questioned why I even keep up on this stuff and once he asked it became obvious it's just a bad habit. One more story of this priest is a fag, or this pope believes in heresy, and I can't fathom how that gives you any more knowledge things are beyond messed up.

I would give them at most the Ottaviani Intervention, the the 1930's video of a Msgr. Sheen explaining the Mass, and the Ascent of Mt Carmel. I'd recommend they stay away from all apologetics.

Very good points. 

I first had my faith "reawakened" by a Novus Ordo priest who simply expressed astonishment that people didn't like the Church or the faith…he said,"….I don't know why people think this way when there is so much that is beautiful about the Catholic Church.." 

It was enough to make me curious.  I thought about my own nightmares dealing with battle axe nuns and lousy priests as the exception rather than the rule when you take the Church in its totality of history.

I remember thinking, "An institution with the nuns that I dealt with could not possibly have survived for 2000 years." 

Finding out what was and trying to reconcile that with what I experienced lead me to understand the crisis. 

As it is, the crisis is not the faith and everyone should avoid the "bad habit" as you described by focusing on the faith and living it primarily.

I adopted a "rosary ratio" of dealing with the faith.   1/3  sorrowful in which you deal with issues related to the crisis and 1/3 joyful in which you actually learn the faith and 1/3 glorious in which you actually live the faith, take the sacraments, engage in prayer, develop virtue avoid what you learn in the sorrowful third and put into action what you learn in the joyful third. 

 

 
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Offline Serendipity

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Some very good points here.  Education today compared to even just 30 years ago, is very poor.  Reading material is so basic with no real substance so in fact most young adults now don't have the stamina for anything more than soundbites as David Blaine put it.

It would seem that many young adults are confined to thinking in 140 characters on Twitter - no thought just blind acceptance of the latest fad
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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With people brought up in the N.O. Or who have been attending the same for a long time, is the Baltimore Catechism; otherwise they don't have a clue why the N.O. Isn't Catholic, because they don't know what Catholicism is.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline St.Justin

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I spent 2 hrs today talking to my 15 year old grandson about The Mass and the Faith and this wacky Pope. He was like a sponge. He had no idea of what I was talking about because he doesn't know anything about the Catholic Faith (though he group up in the NO and has received all the Sacraments). It was like writing on a blank sheet of paper. He loved every minute of it and seem to understand my explanations. So I guess what I am saying is that just help them learn the True Faith and they will begin to ask the other questions themselves as it will be quite obvious what is wrong.
 
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Offline King Wenceslas

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"Carmmer's Godly Order" by Michael Davies

Short and to the point.
 
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Offline Gardener

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"Carmmer's Godly Order" by Michael Davies

Short and to the point.

Cranmer*

Auto-correct strikes again.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.