Author Topic: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?  (Read 153 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« on: July 06, 2019, 11:48:55 AM »
This was an argument put forth by Jay Dyer, who was a Thomist and Sedevacantist before he converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and he came to a conclusion that Thomism could only logically lead to Arianism.

Throughout the Old Testament, we are given glimpses of the Pre-Incarnate Christ in both interacting with God’s Chosen People and through visions.

For instance, we have the three angels visiting Abraham, whom Abraham refers to as “Lord,” we have the commander of the Heavenly Armies visit Joshua, to whom Joshua vows to and this commander says that the ground he is on is holy ground, we have “one like the Son of God” in the furnace of the three youths, and we have Jacob wrestling with a man, who sees God “face to face.”

Although these encounters with God can be seen as just manifestations through angels, many Church Fathers believe that these Theophanies are actually Theophanies of the Pre-Incarnate Christ, foreshadowing the Incarnation.

The question remains, then, is if these manifestations are of the Pre-Incarnate Christ, how can these manifestations be Created without Christ Himself being Created?

Moreover, there are instances where - from a Christian perspective - people see the Pre-Incarnate Christ. In Daniel 7, we see “one like the son of man” who comes before God, to whom God gives absolute Dominion. Again, how can this vision be created without Christ Himself being created?
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2019, 03:13:30 PM »
I should also say that this extends to apparitions in the New Testament and afterwards. When the Holy Trinity allegedly manifested itself to Sister Lucia, was this vision created or uncreated? If it was created, how can it not be Arian? Same with the Son appearing to Margaret Mary Alacoque - was this vision created or uncreated, and again, if it was created, how would it not be Arian?
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2019, 05:38:18 PM »
I thought Jesus's human nature is a creature? He is uncreated, and his divine nature is uncreated... but the human nature is not uncreated.

Though this doesn't exactly answer the question, because Jesus united the human nature to his person. He did not unite anything else to his person.

Come to think of it, there was something in the Summa about that dove...
 

Online Kreuzritter

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2019, 09:12:33 PM »
I should also say that this extends to apparitions in the New Testament and afterwards. When the Holy Trinity allegedly manifested itself to Sister Lucia, was this vision created or uncreated? If it was created, how can it not be Arian? Same with the Son appearing to Margaret Mary Alacoque - was this vision created or uncreated, and again, if it was created, how would it not be Arian?

How is the content of visual perception not formed matter and therefore created? A vision, in any case, comes into being, and why is he conflating a sensual vision of God with God in himself?

If this is supposed to be an argument for Palamisn, I don't see how the former position, namely that the theophanies' appearances in the material sphere are created, is incompatible with the basic premise of a real distinction between the divine ousia and uncreated energies.

Quote
The question remains, then, is if these manifestations are of the Pre-Incarnate Christ, how can these manifestations be Created without Christ Himself being Created?

Why would a material manifestation of an uncreated spiritual essence need itself to be uncreated?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 09:16:55 PM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Online Kreuzritter

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2019, 09:21:02 PM »
Question: is the Eucharistic host's appearance created? Does answering that in the affirmative force us to conclude that the divinity therein is created and lead to Arianism? What's the difference if the divinity appears as a man ,angel or brilliant light?
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2019, 07:52:50 AM »
I should also say that this extends to apparitions in the New Testament and afterwards. When the Holy Trinity allegedly manifested itself to Sister Lucia, was this vision created or uncreated? If it was created, how can it not be Arian? Same with the Son appearing to Margaret Mary Alacoque - was this vision created or uncreated, and again, if it was created, how would it not be Arian?

Let me ask you, is this Icon created or uncreated?



The created image is a symbol of the uncreated substance of God.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 12:24:23 PM »
I should also say that this extends to apparitions in the New Testament and afterwards. When the Holy Trinity allegedly manifested itself to Sister Lucia, was this vision created or uncreated? If it was created, how can it not be Arian? Same with the Son appearing to Margaret Mary Alacoque - was this vision created or uncreated, and again, if it was created, how would it not be Arian?

Let me ask you, is this Icon created or uncreated?



The created image is a symbol of the uncreated substance of God.

Actually the created image is a symbol of the created nature (humanity) of Christ.

Christ's divinity (uncreated nature) cannot be represented by an image. But since the uncreated and created natures of Christ can't be divided, when representing His human form, the divine form is assumed.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 12:27:38 PM »
Why does the OP see it as necessary that the immaterial be created when manifested?

How does the OP define "create"?

Can the OP link to Dyer's article to see how he arrives at the conclusion?
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Offline Daniel

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Re: Does Thomism logically lead to Arianism?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 12:31:35 PM »
I should also say that this extends to apparitions in the New Testament and afterwards. When the Holy Trinity allegedly manifested itself to Sister Lucia, was this vision created or uncreated? If it was created, how can it not be Arian? Same with the Son appearing to Margaret Mary Alacoque - was this vision created or uncreated, and again, if it was created, how would it not be Arian?

Let me ask you, is this Icon created or uncreated?



The created image is a symbol of the uncreated substance of God.

Actually the created image is a symbol of the created nature (humanity) of Christ.

Christ's divinity (uncreated nature) cannot be represented by an image. But since the uncreated and created natures of Christ can't be divided, when representing His human form, the divine form is assumed.
Not to say you're both wrong, but it looks to me like an image of a person, not of a nature.


Regarding Jay Dyer - Can somebody paraphrase what his exact argument is, and what he's trying to prove exactly? I watched the video but couldn't seem to follow it. It also felt like this video was in response to something, and difficult to make sense of without the relevant context.


Regarding the OP - I'd think that if the apparition is created and if Christ is uncreated, then the apparition simply isn't Christ. Just as an image depicting a thing isn't the thing depicted. But if the apparitions actually are Christ, then it seems there's a problem...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:41:16 PM by Daniel »