Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 6114 times)

Offline Bernadette

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #225 on: September 07, 2019, 07:39:28 AM »
A fascinating description of Prophet Muhammad by Sheikh Wahaj Tarin, based on authentic ahadith.

Here you can taste and appreciate first hand the awe and reverence all Muslims have for whom they consider to be the most perfect human being to ever have walked the face of the earth. Certainly, we can all admit regardless of religious affiliation, that it is the fascinating description of one of the most profound and important men to have ever existed, one of the key and rare figures that shaped universal history for ever.


Oh, dear... You know, Vetus, to the modern mind, these descriptions of the prophet border on the homoerotic.

Exactly.

As you aptly stated, "to the modern mind." To those who have a pure mind, or at least a mind that is open to understanding things in their proper context, no. In any case, it is a fascinating look into the Muslim psyche and their umbilical relationship with Muhammad.

So we with unpure minds cant appreciate Islams intellectual treasure?

I wonder where your thought-process will lead you into? Its like looking at a train wreck in slow motion.

I've never understood why Catholics would go looking for any kind of treasure in other religions, when they have a gold mine sitting right in front of them.  :shrug:
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #226 on: September 07, 2019, 12:34:52 PM »
Your reply in #65 looks like a deft deflection which a Mohammadin would feel safe stating.

It's a scriptural reference (Acts 24:14) that describes "the Way," the faith of the early Church.

I've been a Catholic since birth and surely for more time that most people here. End of discussion.

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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2019, 01:04:46 PM »
You and Fleur-de-Lys are the ones that are being dishonest here.  I guess you can't read properly.  That's why I replied to Fleur-de-Lys with this in red.  See.  Fleur-de-Lys said "Vetus did not say what you are trying to attribute to him."  But that's a lie.  Shame on both of you. Actually she owes me an apology.

You claimed the following: For you to be posting this below, even if you claim you are just posting what Muslims think, you yourself are putting Muhammad before the King of kings, Lord of lords, Jesus Christ.

The answer to this nonsense is: no, I am not. You're failing at basic logic. My post is a simple invitation to look at Muhammad from their perspective, in which case he is the most perfect human being to ever have walked the face of the earth. However, it makes no statement of fact, much less regarding Christ. If this groundless accusation wasn't already bad enough, you proceeded to highlight just a part of what I wrote, trying to pin a different meaning on it. Fleur called you out on this deception and you insulted her in return, showing a complete lack of class and manners towards women. I still gave you a chance to be a man about it but you failed miserably. Sadly, that's all there is to it.

And by the way, you are the idiot for posting all the crap about how great Muhammad was, as if it's some kind of intellectual experiment you are playing to see if anyone besides you and your nurse maid would be interested in it. And then you cry because you are taking flak for posting all this nonsense.  Boo hoo.

This thread is for all people who are interested in Islam and the figure of Muhammad. I have been trying to present all sorts of information from the perspective of Muslims. People like you aren't interested in it and that's fine. The adult approach would be to ignore the thread. The childish approach is to derail it every two or three posts, throwing gratuitous insults left and right. My suggestion? Grow up.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #228 on: September 07, 2019, 01:25:27 PM »
The Apostles were not violent warlords nor were they polygamists.

No, but biblical patriarchs before them were, with divine approval. We must take the whole of the cake, not just part of it.

But for your Reformation comment - Reform? What Reform? (...) If you are arguing a perfection of Christianity in how it’s flawed, I struggle to see how at any level Islam was a more perfect theological and moral religion.

At its core, the Islamic faith attempts to reform what it perceives to be the deficiencies of Judaism and Christianity, to wit: racist tribalism and corruption on the part of Jews, deification of a prophet on the part of Christians. Of course, Christianity and Judaism are irreformable from the perspective of their own respective theologies: they represent God's final revelation. The same claim is made by Islam regarding the Qur'an. It is clear that Muhammad's movement of religious reform in Arabia took inspiration from both Abrahamic traditions and blent them to the best of his ability. That's why I said it is "an attempt to blend and reform both Judaism and Christianity."

For your last point...while true, there is a Christian dogmatic episode about forgiving repentant people from the death penalty (the Stoning of the Adultress), and it is throughout the Gospel where we see how important forgiveness is to anybody regardless of how far they have fallen, insofar as they realize how far they have fallen. See Prodigal Son. You don’t find it to such an extent in Islam.

No, Islam does not have the same concept and dynamic of Law and Grace as Christianity does. Islam has a clear code that regulates the life of the individual and society. Nevertheless, it does stress the importance of forgiveness. Forgiving is usually considered the best approach, even if dealing punishment is warranted. For instance, the parents whose child was murdered can forgive the murderer if they so chose, according to Shari'ah law. However, the fact that Christianity has an overarching concept of forgiveness usque ad mortem does not prevent it from condoning capital punishment for grievous sins such as heresy, apostasy or witchcraft.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #229 on: September 07, 2019, 01:46:51 PM »
gsas just started a timely thread on Teqiyya of Islam, that states a Muslim should lie to non Muslims and is even encouraged to do so.  I think it should be included in this thread, you know just to come to the truth about the religion of the said "prophet".

http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=22629.0
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #230 on: September 07, 2019, 03:38:40 PM »
The Apostles were not violent warlords nor were they polygamists.

No, but biblical patriarchs before them were, with divine approval. We must take the whole of the cake, not just part of it.

Quote
No, Islam does not have the same concept and dynamic of Law and Grace as Christianity does. Islam has a clear code that regulates the life of the individual and society. Nevertheless, it does stress the importance of forgiveness. Forgiving is usually considered the best approach, even if dealing punishment is warranted. For instance, the parents whose child was murdered can forgive the murderer if they so chose, according to Shari'ah law. However, the fact that Christianity has an overarching concept of forgiveness usque ad mortem does not prevent it from condoning capital punishment for grievous sins such as heresy, apostasy or witchcraft.

I'm writing quickly so sorry for lack of structure and cohesion, but

Yes for your first point. But Christianity has never made the claim that the Old Testament was perfect in all of its aspects. Although Divinely approved, it's clear from Christ's coming that there were flaws in the Old Testament, even if approved or ordered by God as we see it from our own current circumstances and perceptions.

Judaism has forgiveness as well. Have you read the story of David and Saul? After Saul chases down David trying to murder him, David has an opportunity to kill him, and he refuses to, to which Saul breaks down crying asking for forgiveness. What about Jonah?

While the overarching "concept of forgiveness usque ad mortem" as you put it is different than Islam and it hasn't stopped Christianity condoning capital punishment for heresy or witchcraft, Christianity distinguishes the Law from the Spirit of the Law, where the Law has authority insofar as it's not seen as in of itself "morality," but rather, there are underlying principles from God that guided the Law which are written in our hearts.

The Law, as Saint John Chrysostom brings up, was a set of guidelines that was specific for the circumstances of the Israelites at a societal level not only for those circumstances, but also it wasn't the basis for a personal relationship to relationship level set of guidelines in of itself; rather to reflect God's goodness as written in our hearts, and to set forth the way to Christ, and shouldn't be seen as the end all be all definition of what is morality for all times by every single letter. The Law is a reflection of what God always wants for all people, it isn't what God always wants for all people. Thus, law is good as long as it reflects God's goodness, even if it is flawed when it comes to forgiveness. The laws of the feudal kingdoms as approved by the Church were much like the Law was - a reflection of God's goodness, not God's goodness in of itself.

Islam does not make this distinction. To be moral is to follow Shariah Law, and to follow Shariah Law is to be moral. Period. For all times and for every place.

The fact that Islam regressed on this distinction back to Judaism (even though God's revelations to His Prophets suggest otherwise - how the sacrifices to God are meaningless if the people are not good people), was kind of at my point "why it's a reform." I don't see what Islam did better than Christianity in terms of how people relate to each other and God, and in Spiritual Growth, which makes me think that such a "required reform" of Islam was not necessary nor true.

It is in my opinion that because of the fact that we are all broken creatures, and can't be perfect, perfect justice and perfect love can't coincide in any society regardless of religion.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 03:50:36 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #231 on: September 07, 2019, 03:52:50 PM »
It is in my opinion that we are all broken creatures, such that there's going to be imperfections in any society ever created because people are imperfect, and as such, there cannot be perfect love and perfect justice simultaneously existing in one society. The fact that Islam and Judaism suggest otherwise by combining love and justice into one set of rules - the Law or Shariah Law - makes both seem flawed, whereas Christianity does not lie in saying that the Society of God on Earth is one in which perfect justice and love is possible to achieve on Earth. If there's a serial killer that's killing people, justice and love will not exist, because it's unjust to purely love him, and it's not-loving to kill him or put him in prison for life. And there have been serial killers.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 03:56:09 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #232 on: October 12, 2019, 02:32:03 PM »
Here's an excellent presentation about Islamic anthropology and the key concept of the fitra (فطرة) by Dr. Umar Faruq Abdallah and Sheykh Hamza Yusuf.

I highly recommend watching it, especially part II where Dr. Abdallah and Sheykh Yuzuf talk back and forth about a series of questions that relate to the human condition, such as the necessity of a correct relationship with the environment, animals and nature and how that affects us psychologically, emotionally, etc. In the first part, Dr. Abdallah expands upon the Islamic sources and tries to elaborate on the concept of the fitra so it's important to look into it before jumping directly to part II.



A presentation on the fitra by Dr. Umar Faruq Abd-Allah, the American Muslim theologian and scholar, followed by an on-stage conversation with Hamza Yusuf, president of Zaytuna College and editor-in-chief of Renovatio.

Our prophetic tradition teaches that every child is born with a natural disposition, or fitra. The great minds of all religious traditions grounded their outlook about human beings in this universal reality. Today, however, this profound first principle has been lost, and our distinctiveness as human beings is challenged by contemporary fields, from biology to psychology to social sciences and beyond. How do we then know the truth of our shared natural disposition? In other words, how do we learn to be human?
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #233 on: October 12, 2019, 04:05:42 PM »
I highly recommend . . . the necessity of a correct relationship with . . . animals and nature and how that affects us psychologically, emotionally, etc.

How would you react if my Rottweiler pissed on a Koran?
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #234 on: October 12, 2019, 04:19:56 PM »
I highly recommend . . . the necessity of a correct relationship with . . . animals and nature and how that affects us psychologically, emotionally, etc.

How would you react if my Rottweiler pissed on a Koran?

I’d give him a pork loin so he could crap on it, too.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #235 on: October 12, 2019, 05:41:31 PM »
I highly recommend . . . the necessity of a correct relationship with . . . animals and nature and how that affects us psychologically, emotionally, etc.

How would you react if my Rottweiler pissed on a Koran?

I’d give him a pork loin so he could crap on it, too.

Please don't let it the pork touch the koran; don't want my Cupcake poisoned.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #236 on: October 13, 2019, 12:03:09 AM »
I highly recommend . . . the necessity of a correct relationship with . . . animals and nature and how that affects us psychologically, emotionally, etc.

How would you react if my Rottweiler pissed on a Koran?

 :rofl:

I'd laugh my head off.  Then I'd give him some pork.

Now for a musical interlude to interrupt the main show.

Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline dellery

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #237 on: October 13, 2019, 07:24:53 AM »
Funny how so many Muslims flee Muhammad's "mercy" and seek refuge in the West.
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life, shall lose it: and he that shall lose his life for me, shall find it.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #238 on: October 13, 2019, 12:12:09 PM »
Funny how so many Muslims flee Muhammad's "mercy" and seek refuge in the West.

Although I find Vetus's fascination with Islam strange for who I am (for it apparently goes beyond, to me, merely objectively learning about Islam outside of polemics [which, to Vetus's credit, we should all do], but looking to it as a source of Truth), nevertheless he is right about one inconsistency about Christian polemics against the Middle East.

For those who want to reverse the clock and go back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades against modern civilization, while criticizing the Middle East for failing to meet the light of modern civilization, you have to bring up all the perceived shortcomings of "the good ole days" in that light of modern civilization, and this includes religious intolerance, persecution, more brutal interrogation and execution methods, blasphemy laws, censorship of media, the despotism of the feudal / absolute monarchy systems, the corruption of the nobility, etc.

Just because Islamic societies do all of the above, doesn't mean you can simultaneously criticize Islam for doing it, but ignore the fact that it was very much done in Christian Europe.

At the very least, you have to pick what is good above and what is bad above, and then criticize Islamic countries on the basis of those bad things.

In many Eastern European (and even Middle Eastern / Caucasian) countries, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy still play a very dominant role in political influence in terms of religious intolerance, blasphemy laws, and censorship. Such countries include Russia, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, etc., but most notably in that "etc." is Ukraine, where religion is being used directly as a means to figure out one's political allegiance, where both Ukrainian Catholics and Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox schismatics are actually, violently seizing Russian owned Ukrainian Orthodox Churches and getting into physical fights with clergy and laypeople of the Russian Orthodox Ukrainian Church.


What flawed creatures we are.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 12:15:48 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #239 on: October 13, 2019, 01:17:34 PM »
Funny how so many Muslims flee Muhammad's "mercy" and seek refuge in the West.

Although I find Vetus's fascination with Islam strange for who I am (for it apparently goes beyond, to me, merely objectively learning about Islam outside of polemics [which, to Vetus's credit, we should all do], but looking to it as a source of Truth), nevertheless he is right about one inconsistency about Christian polemics against the Middle East.

For those who want to reverse the clock and go back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades against modern civilization, while criticizing the Middle East for failing to meet the light of modern civilization, you have to bring up all the perceived shortcomings of "the good ole days" in that light of modern civilization, and this includes religious intolerance, persecution, more brutal interrogation and execution methods, blasphemy laws, censorship of media, the despotism of the feudal / absolute monarchy systems, the corruption of the nobility, etc.

Just because Islamic societies do all of the above, doesn't mean you can simultaneously criticize Islam for doing it, but ignore the fact that it was very much done in Christian Europe.

At the very least, you have to pick what is good above and what is bad above, and then criticize Islamic countries on the basis of those bad things.

In many Eastern European (and even Middle Eastern / Caucasian) countries, Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy still play a very dominant role in political influence in terms of religious intolerance, blasphemy laws, and censorship. Such countries include Russia, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Ethiopia, etc., but most notably in that "etc." is Ukraine, where religion is being used directly as a means to figure out one's political allegiance, where both Ukrainian Catholics and Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox schismatics are actually, violently seizing Russian owned Ukrainian Orthodox Churches and getting into physical fights with clergy and laypeople of the Russian Orthodox Ukrainian Church.


What flawed creatures we are.

You need to spend more time reading rulings instead of coming on here and being sententious.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.