Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 9561 times)

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #180 on: July 30, 2019, 07:07:46 PM »
does it really matter?

Yes it does.

You are commanded to worship God alone. If praying to intercessors were forbidden by divine Law, then it would objectively constitute a matter of idolatry, a sin against the highest of commandments.

God sees my prayers and the similarly desperate prayers and supplications of believers and wannabe believers, who don't "know" if they're praying directly to God, "to" an intercessor, or whatever the mechanism is. He doesn't care.

The God of Revelation cares.

Only the God of deists or hippies doesn't care if people commit idolatry or not.

Either you are being deliberately obtuse/disingenuous in interpreting my Reply, or you prefer to score gratuitous points, unnecessarily, against people who have dared to join the thread.

My God is not a god of hippies, deists, or idolators.  He is the God professed by the Roman Catholic Church.  I was speaking of the mechanics of prayer.  We pray trustfully if we are practicing, believing Catholics, directing our prayers according to the order and manner the Church instructs us to.  In this way we can be assured that God is listening to our prayers, particularly if we are in a state of grace and not practicing idolatry of another religion (false religion). 

I love how non-practicing Catholics on this thread are fond of spending hours on a traditional Catholic discussion forum criticizing, with zero authority or credibility, practicing Catholics.  And yet you expect to be taken seriously when what you are doing is blowing hot air and spreading contempt for Catholics.

The Roman Catholic Church does not agree with you that it's critical to know exactly how the God of infinite knowledge receives, hears, and responds to prayers, in conjunction with the Heavenly Court and the Communion of Saints.  There's nothing wrong with a frivolous academic exercise, but the Catholic Church has not commanded its members to understand such mysteries perfectly by joining in such academic exercises, because religion is not an academic exercise.  Only, apparently, you do demand it -- and your confreres who no longer profess the religion of Roman Catholicism.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #181 on: July 30, 2019, 08:01:25 PM »
...against people who have dared to join the thread.

Speaking of daring, I'm not the one here who tried to shut the discussion down in this thread.

My God is not a god of hippies, deists, or idolators.  He is the God professed by the Roman Catholic Church.  I was speaking of the mechanics of prayer.

This is immaterial to Pon's point to which you responded. That's why I quoted you.

It objectively matters if intercessory prayer is lawful or not and whether there is historical and theological pedigree backing it up among the OT Jews. That has been Pon's question all along. To answer that it doesn't really matter because God doesn't care about whether prayer should be directed solely to Him or not is nonsensical, even if you're just trying to describe the "mechanics of prayer" from a Catholic standpoint. What matters in this case is to demonstrate, even if just tentatively, that intercessory prayer to dead people and angels is lawful, that it doesn't violate the First Commandment and that it has roots in the OT.

I love how non-practicing Catholics on this thread are fond of spending hours on a traditional Catholic discussion forum criticizing, with zero authority or credibility, practicing Catholics. And yet you expect to be taken seriously when what you are doing is blowing hot air and spreading contempt for Catholics.

I hope this emotional diatribe isn't directed at me. I don't want you to commit slander.
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2019, 08:56:29 AM »
Pon,
I wonder if we will ever know all these academic answers before Heaven, but to me, the larger question -- intellectually curious as I am about many unanswered questions, including these technical ones -- does it really matter?

From a broader standpoint, I agree: it really doesn't matter.  Set against the concern of personal salvation, it doesn't matter whether a person knows how many angels can dance on the head of a pin if they aren't a believing Catholic in the state of grace at the moment of their death.  So in that sense, no, it doesn't matter.  But Catholicism is a missionary religion, and part of that entails evangelization.  And the discussion over the past several pages has been about the historical attestations for a Catholic practice and doctrine.  If nothing else, it's featured a lot of the relevant apologetics material that would be offered to an inquiring Protestant or Muslim.  The "Non-Catholic Discussion" subforum would seem to be the right place for it.  Xavier, for his part, said he appreciates these questions because it makes him delve into the bible further.

My own bias is not for Protestantism.  I didn't anticipate this tangent, so I'm only using the Protestant (and, implicitly, Islamic) objections as a sounding board to draw out the history.  The larger (and original) dispute between Kreuzritter and myself was between Greek philosophy and Semitic monotheism.  Anyway, I take it you were referring to me in your comment about "non-practicing Catholics ... criticizing, with zero authority or credibility, practicing Catholics."  Firstly, I haven't claimed any more personal authority for myself than anyone else does.  Usually when I appeal to an authority, I try to include a link to the source.  And second, I don't know where I've "criticized Catholics."  To the extent that I've critiqued anything, it's been a doctrine, not people⁠—and via skepticism, I think, not rancor.  Is the Socratic method not welcome?  We can terminate the discussion if you think I've gotten personal.


« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 09:12:26 AM by Pon de Replay »
 
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Offline Matto

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #183 on: July 31, 2019, 01:03:48 PM »
Nani . . .
I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..
 
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #184 on: July 31, 2019, 03:23:02 PM »
Nani . . .

Nani as in  何 (or なに)?

Indeed.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #185 on: August 21, 2019, 12:38:38 PM »
Another interesting video about the Prophet and the deep emotional and psychological connection all Muslims have to him:

Laqad jaakum rasulun min anfusikum. 'Azizun 'alayhi ma 'anittum; harisun 'alaykum bil-mu'minina raufun rahim.

"There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful." (9:128)

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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #186 on: August 21, 2019, 06:58:03 PM »
A lecture by Dr. Jeffrey Lang given in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in 1995. It was entitled Muhammad (pbuh), the Seal of the Prophets - Why?, wherein Dr. Lang explores some arguments in favor of Muhammad's nature as a final prophet of God.


Dr. Lang is an Associate Professor of Mathematics at the University of Kansas and long time convert to Islam. Here's a brief narrative of his conversion found in Quora:

Quote
The first 18 years of his life were spent in Catholic schools, which left him with many unanswered questions about God and the Christian religion, Lang said, as he narrated his story of Islam. “Like most kids back in the late 60s and early 70s, I started questioning all the values that we had at those times, political, social and religious,” Lang said. “I rebelled against all the institutions that society held sacred, including the Catholic Church,” he said.

By the time he reached the age of 18, Lang had become a full-fledged atheist. “If there is a God, and He is all merciful and all loving, then why is there suffering on this earth? Why does not He just take us to heaven? Why create all these people to suffer?” Such were the questions that came up in his mind in those days.

As a young lecturer in mathematics at San Francisco University, Lang found his religion where God is finally a reality. That was shown to him by a few of the Muslim friends he had met at the university. “We talked about religion. I asked them my questions, and I was really surprised by how carefully they had thought out their answers,” Lang said.

Dr. Lang met Mahmoud Qandeel, a regal looking Saudi student who attracted the attention of the entire class the moment he walked in. When Lang asked a question about medical research, Qandeel answered the question in perfect English and with great self assurance. Everyone knew Qandeel – the mayor, the police chief and the common people. Together the professor and the student went to all the glittering places where “there was no joy or happiness, only laughter.” Yet at the end, Qandeel surprisingly gave him a copy of the Quran and some books on Islam. Lang read the Quran on his own, found his way to the student-run prayer hall at the university, and basically surrendered without much struggle. He was conquered by the Quran. The first two chapters are an account of that encounter and it is a fascinating one.

“Painters can make the eyes of a portrait appear to be following you from one place to another, but which author can write a scripture that anticipates your daily vicissitudes?... Each night I would formulate questions and objections and somehow discover the answer the next day. It seemed that the author was reading my ideas and writing in the appropriate lines in time for my next reading. I have met myself in its pages...”

Lang performs the daily five-time prayers regularly and finds much spiritual satisfaction. He finds the Fajr (pre-dawn) prayer as one of the most beautiful and moving rituals in Islam.

To the question how he finds it so captivating when the recitation of the Quran is in Arabic, which is totally foreign to him, he responds; “Why is a baby comforted by his mother’s voice?” He said reading the Quran gave him a great deal of comfort and strength in difficult times. From there on, faith was a matter of practice for Lang’s spiritual growth.

On the other hand, Lang pursued a career in mathematics. He received his master’s and doctoral degrees from Purdue University. Lang said that he had always been fascinated by mathematics. “Math is logical. It consists of using facts and figures to find concrete answers,” Lang said. “That is the way my mind works, and it is frustrating when I deal with things that do not have concrete answerers.” Having a mind that accepts ideas on their factual merit makes believing in a religion difficult because most religions require acceptance by faith, he said. Islam appeals to man’s reasoning, he said.

As faculty advisor for the Muslim Student Association, Lang said he viewed himself as the liaison between the students and their universities. He gets approval from university authorities to hold Islamic lectures. “The object of being their faculty advisor is to help them get their needs met as far as adjusting to the American culture and to procedures of the university. They appreciate the opportunity to have misconceptions corrected,” he said.

Lang married a Saudi Muslim woman, Raika, 12 years ago. Lang has written several Islamic books which are best sellers among the Muslim community in the US. One of his important books is “Even Angels ask; A Journey to Islam in America”. In this book, Dr. Lang shares with his readers the many insights that have unfolded for him through his self discovery and progress within the religion of Islam.
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Offline abc123

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #187 on: August 22, 2019, 06:29:40 PM »
Vetus-

A straight yes/no please...

Have you embraced Islam? Your videos seem to indicate a desire beyond mere educational purposes.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #188 on: August 22, 2019, 06:51:14 PM »
Quote
Islam appeals to man’s reasoning

No vision of God, no meeting with Allah, no encoutner with the divine. Just "reasoning", as though "reasoning" were able to discover "Allah" and the purported truth of Mohammed's claims: pure intellectual wishful-thinking and make-believe. But then this has so very much in common with much of post-Scholastic Western Christianity.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #189 on: August 24, 2019, 12:47:39 PM »
Quote
Islam appeals to man’s reasoning

No vision of God, no meeting with Allah, no encoutner with the divine. Just "reasoning", as though "reasoning" were able to discover "Allah" and the purported truth of Mohammed's claims: pure intellectual wishful-thinking and make-believe. But then this has so very much in common with much of post-Scholastic Western Christianity.

Rationality is a key component of true religion.

It is not sufficient in itself to establish the truth of revelation but it cannot be absent. On the other hand, visions of God and purported encounters with the divine can happen in any sect. You need both reason and mysticism.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #190 on: August 24, 2019, 04:07:26 PM »
Vetus-

A straight yes/no please...

Have you embraced Islam? Your videos seem to indicate a desire beyond mere educational purposes.

bump
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #191 on: August 24, 2019, 05:37:17 PM »
Vetus-

A straight yes/no please...

Have you embraced Islam? Your videos seem to indicate a desire beyond mere educational purposes.

bump

Bump bump
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Online Lynne

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #192 on: August 24, 2019, 07:40:24 PM »
Vetus-

A straight yes/no please...

Have you embraced Islam? Your videos seem to indicate a desire beyond mere educational purposes.

bump

Bump bump

Yes, bump.
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #193 on: August 24, 2019, 10:22:44 PM »
Another interesting video by Dr. Ali Ataie.

Here he talks about Biblical hermeneutics from an Islamic perspective and the foreshadowing of Muhammad in the Bible. Excellent presentation as always.

DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #194 on: August 25, 2019, 08:11:47 PM »
Quote
Quran contains references to more than 50 people in the Bible, which predates it by several centuries. Stories related in the Quran usually focus more on the spiritual significance of events than details.[5] The stories are generally comparable, but there are differences. One of the most famous differences is the Islamic view of Jesus' crucifixion. Quran maintains that Jesus was not actually crucified and did not die on the cross. The general Islamic view supporting the denial of crucifixion was probably influenced by Manichaenism (Docetism), which holds that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus, while concluding that Jesus will return during the end-times.[6]

    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
    Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
    — Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158[7]

Despite these views, scholars have maintained, that the Crucifixion of Jesus is a fact of history and not disputed.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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