Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 9555 times)

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3815
  • Thanked: 1879 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2019, 02:13:21 PM »
Have you read Enoch's Apocalypse of Weeks?

No.  Does it contain examples of people praying to the dead for their intercession?

 :confused:
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2756
  • Thanked: 2362 times
  • Holy Roman Churchgoer
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #136 on: July 26, 2019, 09:53:15 AM »
An interesting lecture by Dr. Ali Ataie, a Persian Sunni scholar specialized in comparative religion, trying to connect the linguistic and theological dots between Allah and God in the Bible:


For those interested, you can learn more about Dr. Ataie here.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fleur-de-Lys

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1315
  • Thanked: 1838 times
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #137 on: July 26, 2019, 12:12:37 PM »
A very interesting lecture. From a purely linguistic perspective, Dr. Ataie’s analysis of the relationship between the Arabic allah/ilah, Hebrew el/eloah/elohim, and Aramaic elaha is solid and well established. But his attempt to tie in the Tetragrammaton seems eisegetical and is ultimately unconvincing.
 
The following users thanked this post: Vetus Ordo

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2756
  • Thanked: 2362 times
  • Holy Roman Churchgoer
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #138 on: July 26, 2019, 01:14:30 PM »
A very interesting lecture. From a purely linguistic perspective, Dr. Ataie’s analysis of the relationship between the Arabic allah/ilah, Hebrew el/eloah/elohim, and Aramaic elaha is solid and well established. But his attempt to tie in the Tetragrammaton seems eisegetical and is ultimately unconvincing.

Yes, I found that last part a bit contrived as well. He tried too hard. In any case, Dr. Ataie proposes the relationship between Al-Ikhlas and the Shema merely on a tentative level.

The most refreshing part about these lectures is that they attempt to present the issues with academic rigor, intellectual honesty and good will towards the other side. It's a completely different tone than the one we usually find in popular apologetics from both sides that is more often than not marred by false (or incomplete) portrayals and religious hysteria.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fleur-de-Lys

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6192
  • Thanked: 4065 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #139 on: July 26, 2019, 02:09:02 PM »

Yes, I found that last part a bit contrived as well. He tried too hard. In any case, Dr. Ataie proposes the relationship between Al-Ikhlas and the Shema merely on a tentative level.

The most refreshing part about these lectures is that they attempt to present the issues with academic rigor, intellectual honesty and good will towards the other side. It's a completely different tone than the one we usually find in popular apologetics from both sides that is more often than not marred by false (or incomplete) portrayals and religious hysteria.

Point of Information:
Understanding why a religion is false is not equivalent to "religious hysteria."  It's a false religion.  So is Freemasonry.  So is Judaism.  So are all the Protestant sects.  Etc.

It might be an interesting intellectual exercise (for some) to examine why its adherents believe falsely in a non-Trinitarian Allah as equivalent to the true God, but it doesn't alter the fact that their beliefs are false.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1673
  • Thanked: 1079 times
  • Religion: Quasi-Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #140 on: July 26, 2019, 03:30:42 PM »
Well, this is where I'm confused.  Why are you citing the Talmud and Zohar if we are trying to establish things about pre-Christian Judaism?


Because the Talmudic sources are contemporaneous with Christ and early Christianity, and the Zohar gives us further insight into what your Semitic "Hebraists" actually believe. Now you're going to claim that "Hebraists" par-excellence watered down "Hebraism"? I see how it is: Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Jews are incorrect: the Protestant idea of Judaism and early Christianity are correct.

Quote
I wonder if we don't disagree as much as you think.  I certainly agree with you that the Judaism of Christ's day was not monolithic.  It is clear enough from the gospels that the hierarchs were from both the Sadducean and Pharisaical sects—one of which didn't even acknowledge an afterlife.  Surely they could tolerate a good deal of variance. 

It's more than "variance"; we have the Essenes, Philo's doctrines, primitive Gnosticism, the beliefs that would become Christianity and so on, and no, the Pharisees did not tolerate these.

Quote
But the authorities have to count for something.  "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.  Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example.  For they preach but they do not practice."  Here's something you said earlier:

Yes. And he also said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. And then went on to break and dismiss what the Pharisees taught about the Sababth, unclean food and stoning adulterers.

Quote
I am arguing that they practised it, not whether it was licit.

I guess that's fine.  But I am arguing that in such cases they were going against Hebraism—that the licitness is what matters,

Yes, and nobody is arguing against that, but your "Hebraism" represents one faction of post-exilic Hebrew religion, albeit the one that politically entrenched itself through the ruling priest caste, the same one that crucified our Lord. It does not represent the faith of Enoch, Abraham, David and the priest-kings of the First Temple period that the Second Temple reformers had tried to extirpate as "pagan" and that lead the Jews of the Sanhedrin, knowing full well that by calling himself Son of the Most High, Jesus was invoking the old faith and declaring himself to be Yahweh, to nail him to a tree.

Quote
as something like polytheistic worship is expressly verboten according to the God of the Hebrews.  If it's not, then I don't know what.  End of conversation, I suppose.  Not to be sola scriptura or anything, but the revelation of God as contained in the Old Testament has to be at least our primary source for what constituted orthodoxy and orthopraxy for the ancient Jews, otherwise we are just arguing over a heap of indistinguishable and unimportant variances.

It certainly is a primary source but it is not the only source, and if you are not going to read it according to the Catholic tradition, and don't regard it as perfectly inerrant as transmitted, then for goodness sake, accept the demonstrable and self-admitted fact that the Scribes altered parts of it and the textual evidence that supports a re-making of the faith by returning elites after the Baylonian exile that was even more radical than the Reformation was to Catholicism. Anyone find it just a little ironic that the Temple was destroyed and the Captivity begun immediately following Josiah's supposed cleaning up of paganism and idolatry to return to the true faith based upon a discovery of a "scroll of the law"? Christianity was not the novelty; unitarian, iconoclastic and legalistic Judaism was.

Quote
It seems to be the default setting of most humans to fall back on superstition, folk religion, and gooey paganisms.  After all, what have the moderns gone in for now that they've rejected God?  New Age goo-goo, angels, crystals, ersatz occultism, yoga, reiki healing, and sending their wishes out to the universe.  "I'm spiritual, but not religious."  This idiocy is as old as the ages, and doubtless it occurred among the Jews.  But the ancient Jewish authorities were apt to quash these tendencies.  Protestant authorities operated on the same level, as Protestantism is far more a Hebraism than Catholicism or Orthodoxy.  Which returns us to my point: that the Church greatly relaxed its Hebraic quotient as it evangelized the Gentiles.  (And I don't argue that there was no thing as a "Hellenized Jew."  Indeed, such a term exists because the distinctions are so important.  St. Paul himself may have been one.  If so, this was probably what made him so effective as "the apostle to the Gentiles").

Protestantism certainly is far more "Hebraism" in various aspects. In fact, it sounds like "Hebraism" is in some respect an anachronistic Protestant construct that does not even fit what you'll hear from orthodox Jews, but I won't belabour the point. But I'll take "superstition, folk religion, and gooey paganism,  New Age goo-goo, angels, crystals, ersatz occultism, yoga, reiki healing, and sending their wishes out to the universe" over the masochistic submission and absurd worship of the God of this World, Father of Lies, Murderer from the Beginning, grand cosmic tyrant and enemy of all mankind as "God".

Quote
They didn't.  That's part of my point.  But among the educated, it took a hold and trickled down.  By the time of Christ, Stoicism was popular as a practical philosophy, and where it mentioned "the gods" or "the fates," it was casual shorthand, not doctrinal belief.

The Greek philosophers regarded the traditional local polytheisms as harmless.  The average bumpkin was not going to become a philosopher, so let him sacrifice his incense and say his prayers to his chosen gods and hope for a good spouse or a bountiful harvest.  What does it hurt him? 

Sure. But Neoplatonism says something different about people who where the farthest thing from country bumpkins, as does the Hermetic corpus and the Papyri Magicae Graecae.

Quote
And this is the aspect that sums it up: there's no wrathful father-god to offend, so let it be.  This is the crux of the difference between Athens and Jerusalem here.

Ok.

Quote
If we are going by what the Church teaches, then I am handicapped too much to argue.  The Church teaches a lot things that are said to be "implicit" in the early Chuch.  But the New Testament ought to speak for itself, simply as a record.  Where is prayer to saints in the letters of St. Paul?  These are letters that even include trivial things like "do me a favor and bring back the cloak I left in Troia," as well as various salutations and closings and prayers and benedictions—wouldn't there be at least one instance where he asked the dead for their intercession?  If this was the practice at the time, why isn't it more evident?

I'm not going to play the sola scriptura game.

Quote
There is no way to know that it isn't an interpolation—unless there is evidence that this belief predates the gospel. 

There's no reason to believe it is an interpolation.

Quote
The onus is on you. 

That's absurd. If you're going to dismiss it because you declare it's likely an interpolation, then the onus is on you to demonstrate that.

Quote
The best I can say is: "I don't know." 

You could say that about every word and every sentence in the scriptures. If you're going to use that as an argument, then stop asking me for scriptural evidence of anything, because it's totally pointless.

Quote
But I would think that if this kind of belief was as common among "the Judaism that became Christianity," there would be more evidence in the NT for it aside from a possible interpolation (since you claim I'm the one bending over backwards).

Everything is a "possible interpolation". Yes, you are bending over backwards since the argument for interpolation is logically fallacious. And no, there's no objective reason to conclude "there would be more evidence in the NT".

Quote
Precisely.  They were aware of necromancy and idolatry among their own people: as acts of faithlessness to God.  By your logic, a person could use heresies to define Catholicism.  This is nuts.


Just stop it. I'm not defining "Hebraism"; that's your construct. I'm not arguing that "Hebraism" taught these things. "They" are the Hebrews, and the Hebrews practised these things. Please understand the point: The Hebrews practised magic, idolatry, veneration, praying for the dead, praying to the dead, etc. I'm not saying which of these were licit, but the Church regards praying to the dead for intercession as licit, AND YOU HAVE NO BASIS TO DECLARE THAT VENERATION OF SAINTS AND PRAYERS FOR INTERCESSION FROM THEM IS SOMETHING THAT DEVELOPED AMONG CHRISTIANS THROUGH LATER PAGAN INFLUENCE WHEN THE HEBREWS WERE AS A FACT PRACTISING THIS SAME THING, WHETHER OR NOT "HEBRAISM" REGARDED IT AS LICIT. (emphasis, not sreaming)
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 1673
  • Thanked: 1079 times
  • Religion: Quasi-Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #141 on: July 26, 2019, 03:37:48 PM »
An interesting lecture by Dr. Ali Ataie, a Persian Sunni scholar specialized in comparative religion, trying to connect the linguistic and theological dots between Allah and God in the Bible:


For those interested, you can learn more about Dr. Ataie here.

Thanks. I needed a good laugh.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3815
  • Thanked: 1879 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #142 on: July 27, 2019, 07:46:43 AM »
The Talmudic sources are contemporaneous with Christ and early Christianity, and the Zohar gives us further insight into what your Semitic "Hebraists" actually believe. Now you're going to claim that "Hebraists" par-excellence watered down "Hebraism"? I see how it is: Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Jews are incorrect: the Protestant idea of Judaism and early Christianity are correct.

It's not the dichotomy you see it as.  It could be that Protestantism is simply correct on this particular point.  If the Talmud is contemporaneous with early Christianity, and it contains references to praying to the dead for intercession, then why doesn't the Christian corpus contain them also?  And it's not sola scriptura.  You are not restricted to the NT.  Any of the orthodox writings would suffice.  Does Clement of Rome mention praying to the dead for intercession?  Tertullian?  St. Justin?  Origen?

Here is your problem: you can't trot out something from the Talmud and say, "this is the Judaism from which Christianity sprung."  That's a mere assertion.  To prove it, you would have to show concurrences in Christianity.  The only "Judaism" which Christianity formally admits a continuance with is the Judaism in the OT.  If your rebuttal is that an evil, hook-nosed rabbinical caste redacted and edited the OT in their own favor (and not yours), then that only raises the question of why a tampered collection is enshrined by the Church as the word of God.  You would also be in the same boat as the Mohammedans, who maintain that the ancient Jews actually had the Qur'anic understanding of the patriarchal stories.  Their proof: none.  Their claim: "the scriptures were tampered with."  This is suspiciously convenient.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3815
  • Thanked: 1879 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #143 on: July 27, 2019, 08:17:46 AM »
There's no reason to believe it is an interpolation.

The editors of the NABRE beg to differ.  There are two competing claims: theirs and yours.  I haven't the learning to determine which is correct.  And either one could be wrong.  A shepherd boy in Libya could knock over a clay urn in a dusty cave tomorrow morning, and out might spill papyri dating from the second century BC, containing an Enochian Psalter and confirming that the Jews prayed to Enoch for his intercession.  But until then, there is no proof.  The Catholic scholars of the NABRE (affirmed by the US bishops) could be correct, or Margaret Barker could.  Who knows?

But if you think the rabbinical class edited the OT to their own favor, I don't know why you refuse to admit any tampering by Christian scribes to the NT.  You can't have it both ways.  Mark, at any rate, the gospel in question, does seem to contain obvious interpolations and additions.  At the very least it contains observable early variations.


« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 08:20:01 AM by Pon de Replay »
 

Offline Xavier

  • Mary Refuge of Holy Love, Protectress of our Faith, Defender of Your Pre-Born Infant Children, Cause the Genocidal Holocaust of Abortion to end in our time.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 4742
  • Thanked: 3321 times
  • Indult Traditionalist.
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: St. Thomas Indian Roman Catholic.
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #144 on: July 27, 2019, 02:08:55 PM »
Thanks, Pon, for sharing that Tradition of the Jewish Faithful being particularly devoted to St. Michael, regarding him as the special patron and protector of the Hebrew Nation, and imploring his intercession in their trials. May St. Michael the ArchAngel lead them safely to their salvation in Christ.

Can we discuss on how Prayers of the Saints in Heaven is revealed more fully in the New Testament? That might help us understand the Old better.

Apoc 5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 6:11  And white robes were given to every one of them one; And it was said to them that they should rest for a little time till their fellow servants and their brethren, who are to be slain even as they, should be filled up.

8:3  And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.

8:4  And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.


Commentary: the prayers of the Saints in Heaven ascends to the Throne of God like sweet smelling incense. Because all of this is so similar to how we worship Almighty God when Heaven comes to Earth in Holy Mass, many Catholic commentators see here prefigured in mysterious type the incense we offer God, which the Saints also pray over, during Holy Mass. And the second verse confirms it, for it shows murdered martyrs as living souls making requests of God, to be answered st their proper time; moreover it is said under the Altar because Churches are often constructed over the relics of the Saints, and their souls still active there also shows why their intercession should be sought and their relics venerated. Finally, as a kind of triple cord, the Angelic Hierarchy also adds the merit of its prayers before these prayers ascends to the Most High.

Do you agree, dear Pon, that all this in the NT is warrant for seeking the powerful intercession of the Saints? [Edit: also 14:13  And I heard a voice from heaven, saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours. For their works follow them. tells us the departed in the Lord now fully enter the reward of their works after Christ. I'm doing a Bible study on Revelation and it's quie amazing how much information there is about Heaven, Angels and Saints in 1 single Book].

God bless.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 02:30:51 PM by Xavier »
My Personal Motto in Life, that of St. Maximillian Maria Kolbe, founder of the Militia Immaculatae: "I want to be a Saint, and a great Saint". Make it your motto too.

"Dignáre, Dómine, die isto sine peccáto nos custodíre" (Deign, O Lord, to keep us this day without any sin). Please pray this prayer many times every day to end all sin.

St. Padre Pio: "I have made a pact with the Lord: I will take my place at the gate to paradise, but I shall not enter until I have seen the last of my spiritual children enter."

Come offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/

"I bless thy holy Name, I praise thine exalted privilege of being truly Mother of God, ever Virgin, conceived without stain of sin, Co-Redemptrix of the human race." [Indulgence of 100 Days, 22 January 1914] https://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mystery_coredemptrix_papal_magisterium.htm Pray, "Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix of the world, pray for us: http://www.jesusmariasite.org/jesus-pray-my-children-that-the-fifth-marian-dogma-be-proclaimed/
 
The following users thanked this post: Pon de Replay

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3815
  • Thanked: 1879 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #145 on: July 28, 2019, 08:31:47 AM »
Thanks, Pon, for sharing that Tradition of the Jewish Faithful being particularly devoted to St. Michael, regarding him as the special patron and protector of the Hebrew Nation, and imploring his intercession in their trials.

You're welcome.  But let's be cautious not to overdo it with the embellishments.  According to the citation, the practice of praying to St. Michael among the Jews seems to have been a "folk religion" element that eventually gained in popularity.  This was to the consternation of the rabbinical authorities of the time (presumably, those who "sat in the seat of Moses") who tried to quash and discourage it, seeing it as an error given the oneness and sovereignty of God.  It seems to be an instance of a quasi-pagan inclination clashing with the Hebraic lordliness.  And yet, in your favor, it does indeed stand as an example of people "praying to heavenly denizens besides God" within the Semitic monotheism.

Can we discuss on how Prayers of the Saints in Heaven is revealed more fully in the New Testament? That might help us understand the Old better.

I think Revelation 5:8 makes an implicit case, but just as with the examples we discussed from the OT, the element of the faithful praying specifically to the dead is missing.  The saints are presenting the Lamb with incense-filled bowls of prayers.  But to whom were these prayers originally addressed?  That's the crucial question.  The text doesn't say.  It doesn't tell us whether the saints themselves were the intended recipients of these prayers, or whether it is an honor in heaven for the saints to ceremoniously present to the Lord the prayers offered to Him.

What we really need is an example of someone praying to (or exhorting prayer to) the dead for their intercession.  Consider St. Stephen, the first martyr.  St. Paul was present at his execution.  As the Church underwent her trials of persecutions under the Romans, it seems that if praying to the saints was a commonplace practice, St. Stephen would've been an obvious saint to pray to for fortitude in the possibility of eventual death.  But does St. Paul (or anyone else in the first or second century) pray to St. Stephen?  Or to any other of the deceased?  That is the kind of thing which would explicitly prove it.  Many of the earliest epistles conclude or begin with various prayers, benedictions, and exhortations to prayer.  Do we find any mentions of prayer to the dead?  I don't know the answer, but it seems like if there was such a thing, the Protestants would've been clubbed to death with it long ago (with much triumphalism).  Peace be with you.
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2756
  • Thanked: 2362 times
  • Holy Roman Churchgoer
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #146 on: July 28, 2019, 05:57:59 PM »
Another interesting lecture by Dr. Ali Ataie exploring the Islamic positions on Christ's crucifixion. As far as I gather, he himself defends a minority position but it is still well worth exploring it.


Based upon Todd Lawson's book by the same name, this lecture will highlight and analyze the exegetical history of Muslim theo-Christological thought with respect to the highly controversial al-Nisa 4:157 — the only ayah in the Qur'an that explicitly references the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). What exactly is the ayah saying? Was Christ substituted? Did he swoon? Was he actually crucified? What are the (inter)textual and historical evidences for these positions?
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: Pon de Replay, Fleur-de-Lys

Offline Fleur-de-Lys

  • Mary Garden
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1315
  • Thanked: 1838 times
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #147 on: July 28, 2019, 10:19:38 PM »
Another interesting lecture by Dr. Ali Ataie exploring the Islamic positions on Christ's crucifixion. As far as I gather, he himself defends a minority position but it is still well worth exploring it.


Based upon Todd Lawson's book by the same name, this lecture will highlight and analyze the exegetical history of Muslim theo-Christological thought with respect to the highly controversial al-Nisa 4:157 — the only ayah in the Qur'an that explicitly references the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). What exactly is the ayah saying? Was Christ substituted? Did he swoon? Was he actually crucified? What are the (inter)textual and historical evidences for these positions?

A very thorough examination of the various traditional interpretations of this ayah. I particularly appreciated Dr. Ataie’s bringing both philology and intertextuality to the discussion. His conclusions were certainly surprising. :D
 
The following users thanked this post: Vetus Ordo

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3815
  • Thanked: 1879 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #148 on: July 29, 2019, 06:44:46 AM »
Another interesting lecture by Dr. Ali Ataie exploring the Islamic positions on Christ's crucifixion. As far as I gather, he himself defends a minority position but it is still well worth exploring it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09-JthSnyic

I'll look forward to watching this one.  I enjoyed the previous video you posted from this same speaker.  The philology aspects were educational to me, and I appreciated his juxtaposition of Marcionite Christianity with orthodox Christianity and Islam, which is a good way to frame the "God of the Hebrews" issue (R.C. Zaehner used the same tactic in his book Our Savage God).  I was also pleased with his digression to confront the theory that the God worshiped by Muslims is somehow a Babylonian moon god.  I remember I had never heard of that one until devotedknuckles voiced it on Fish Eaters some years ago.  It's one of those theories I like, even though it isn't true.  Like the "Egyptians were black" theory.

But Dr. Ataie is surely wrong about the Qa'abah, even if he is only re-stating a pious Islamic belief.  It was not originally an altar built by Abraham and Ishmael.  Is there any evidence the Arabians believed it to be that, prior to the Prophet?


« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 07:01:20 AM by Pon de Replay »
 
The following users thanked this post: Vetus Ordo

Offline Gardener

  • Drink the poison yourself.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8851
  • Thanked: 6434 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #149 on: July 29, 2019, 07:42:02 AM »
The Talmudic sources are contemporaneous with Christ and early Christianity, and the Zohar gives us further insight into what your Semitic "Hebraists" actually believe. Now you're going to claim that "Hebraists" par-excellence watered down "Hebraism"? I see how it is: Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Jews are incorrect: the Protestant idea of Judaism and early Christianity are correct.

It's not the dichotomy you see it as.  It could be that Protestantism is simply correct on this particular point.  If the Talmud is contemporaneous with early Christianity, and it contains references to praying to the dead for intercession, then why doesn't the Christian corpus contain them also?  And it's not sola scriptura.  You are not restricted to the NT.  Any of the orthodox writings would suffice.  Does Clement of Rome mention praying to the dead for intercession?  Tertullian?  St. Justin?  Origen?

Here is your problem: you can't trot out something from the Talmud and say, "this is the Judaism from which Christianity sprung."  That's a mere assertion.  To prove it, you would have to show concurrences in Christianity.  The only "Judaism" which Christianity formally admits a continuance with is the Judaism in the OT.  If your rebuttal is that an evil, hook-nosed rabbinical caste redacted and edited the OT in their own favor (and not yours), then that only raises the question of why a tampered collection is enshrined by the Church as the word of God.  You would also be in the same boat as the Mohammedans, who maintain that the ancient Jews actually had the Qur'anic understanding of the patriarchal stories.  Their proof: none.  Their claim: "the scriptures were tampered with."  This is suspiciously convenient.

Starting in the late 2nd century and moving forward:

Quote
Tradition / Church Fathers

I. Intercessory Power and Veneration of the Saints

“[T]hat it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).

“[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.” Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Crown, 3 (A.D. 211).

“Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of bow much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,–whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory.” Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).

“I am also of opinion that there were many persons of the same name with John the apostle, who by their love for him, and their admiration and emulation of him, and their desire to be loved by the Lord as he was loved, were induced to embrace also the same designation, just as we find many of the children of the faithful called by the names of Paul and Peter.” Dionysius of Alexandria, Books of Promises, 5 (A.D. 257).

“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350).

“Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel.” John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration 18:4 (A.D. 374).

“He voluntarily undertook all the toil of the journey; he moderated the energy of the faithful on the spot; he persuaded opponents by his arguments; in the presence of priests and deacons, and of many others who fear the Lord, he took up the relics with all becoming reverence, and has aided the brethren in their preservation. These relics do you receive with a joy equivalent to the distress with which their custodians have parted with them and sent them to you. Let none dispute; let none doubt. Here you have that unconquered athlete. These bones, which shared in the conflict with the blessed soul, are known to the Lord. These bones He will crown, together with that soul, in the righteous day of His requital, as it is written, ‘we must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may give an account of the deeds he has done in the body.’ One coffin held that honoured corpse. None other lay by his side. The burial was a noble one; the honours of a martyr were paid him. Christians who had welcomed him as a guest and then with their own hands laid him in the grave, have now disinterred him. They have wept as men bereaved of a father and a champion. But they have sent him to you, for they put your joy before their own consolation. Pious were the hands that gave; scrupulously careful were the hands that received. There has been no room for deceit; no room for guile. I bear witness to this. Let the untainted truth be accepted by you.” Basil, To Ambrose bishop of Milan, Epistle 197 (A.D. 375).

“Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master…Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf…For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God’s mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them…” Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 377).

“Only may that power come upon us which strengthens weakness, through the prayers of him[i.e. St. Paul] who made his own strength perfect in bodily weakness.” Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 1:1(A.D. 380).

“But God forbid that any in this fair assembly should appear there suffering such things! but by the prayers of the holy fathers, correcting all our offences, and having shown forth the abundant fruit of virtue, may we depart hence with much confidence.” John Chrysostom, On Statues, Homily 6:19 (A.D. 387).

“As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).

“We, it is true, refuse to worship or adore, I say not the relics of the martyrs, but even the sun and moon, the angels and archangels, the Cherubim and Seraphim and ‘every name that is named, not only in this world but also in that which is to come.’ For we may not “serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Still we honour the relics of the martyrs, that we may adore Him whose martyrs they are. We honour the servants that their honour may be reflected upon their Lord who Himself says:–‘he that receiveth you receiveth me.’ I ask Vigilantius, Are the relics of Peter and of Paul unclean? Was the body of Moses unclean, of which we are told (according to the correct Hebrew text) that it was buried by the Lord Himself? And do we, every time that we enter the basilicas of apostles and prophets and martyrs, pay homage to the shrines of idols? Are the tapers which burn before their tombs only the tokens of idolatry? I will go farther still and ask a question which will make this theory recoil upon the head of its inventor and which will either kill or cure that frenzied brain of his, so that simple souls shall be no more subverted by his sacrilegious reasonings. Let him answer me this, Was the Lord’s body unclean when it was placed in the sepulchre? And did the angels clothed in white raiment merely watch over a corpse dead and defiled, that ages afterwards this sleepy fellow might indulge in dreams and vomit forth his filthy surfeit, so as, like the persecutor Julian, either to destroy the basilicas of the saints or to convert them into heathen temples?” Jerome, To Riparius, Epistle 109:1 (A.D. 404).

“For you say that the souls of Apostles and martyrs have their abode either in the bosom of Abraham, or in the place of refreshment, or under the altar of God, and that they cannot leave their own tombs, and be present there they will…And while the devil and the demons wander through the whole world, and with only too great speed present themselves everywhere; are martyrs, after the shedding of their blood, to be kept out of sight shut up in a coffin, from whence they cannot escape? You say, in your pamphlet, that so long as we are alive we can pray for one another; but once we die, the prayer of no person for another can be heard, and all the more because the martyrs, though they cry for the avenging of their blood, have never been able to obtain their request. If Apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, when they ought still to be anxious for themselves, how much more must they do so when once they have won their crowns, overcome, and triumphed? A single man, Moses, oft wins pardon from God for six hundred thousand armed men; and Stephen, the follower of his Lord and the first Christian martyr, entreats pardon for his persecutors; and when once they have entered on their life with Christ, shall they have less power than before? The Apostle Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were given to him in the ship; and when, after his dissolution, he has begun to be with Christ, must he shut his mouth, and be unable to say a word for those who throughout the whole world have believed in his Gospel? Shall Vigilantius the live dog be better than Paul the dead lion? I should be right in saying so after Ecclesiastes, if I admitted that Paul is dead in spirit. The truth is that the saints are not called dead, but are said to be asleep. Wherefore Lazarus, who was about to rise again, is said to have slept. And the Apostle forbids the Thessalonians to be sorry for those who were asleep.” Jerome, Against Vigilantius, 6 (A.D. 406).

“Even if we make images of pious men it is not that we may adore them as gods but that when we see them we might be prompted to imitate them.” Cyril of Alexandria, On Psalms 113 (115) (ante A.D. 444).

“The noble souls of the triumphant are sauntering around heaven, dancing in the choruses of the bodiless; and not one tomb for each conceals their bodies, but cities and villages divide them up and call them healers and preservers of souls and bodies, and venerate them a guardians and protectors of cities; and when they intervene as ambassadors before the Master of the universe the divine gifts are obtained through them; and though the body has been divided, its grace has continued undivided. And that little particle and smallest relic has the same power as the absolutely and utterly undivided martyr.” Theodoret of Cyrus, The Cure of Pagan Maladies, 8:54 (A.D. 449).

” Thou gainest nothing, thou prevailest nothing, O savage cruelty. His mortal frame is released from thy devices, and, when Laurentius departs to heaven, thou art vanquished. The flame of Christ’s love could not be overcome by thy flames, and the fire which burnt outside was less keen than that which blazed within. Thou didst but serve the martyr in thy rage, O persecutor: thou didst but swell the reward in adding to the pain. For what did thy cunning devise, which did not redound to the conqueror’s glory, when even the instruments of torture were counted as part of the triumph? Let us rejoice, then, dearly-beloved, with spiritual joy, and make our boast over the happy end of this illustrious man in the Lord, Who is ‘wonderful in His saints,’ in whom He has given us a support and an example, and has so spread abroad his glory throughout the world, that, from the rising of the sun to its going down, the brightness of his deacon’s light doth shine, and Rome is become as famous in Laurentius as Jerusalem was ennobled by Stephen. By his prayer and intercession we trust at all times to be assisted; that, because all, as the Apostle says, ‘who wish to live holily in Christ, suffer persecutions,’ we may be strengthened with the spirit of love, and be fortified to overcome all temptations by the perseverance of steadfast faith. Through our LORD Jesus Christ.” Pope Leo the Great [regn. A.D. 440-461], On the Feast of Laurence the Martyr, Sermon 85:4 (ante A.D. 461).

“To the saints honour must be paid as friends of Christ, as sons and heirs of God: in the words of John the theologian and evangelist, As many as received Him, to them gave He power to became sons of God. So that they are no longer servants, but sons: and if sons, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ: and the Lord in the holy Gospels says to His apostles, Ye are My friends. Henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth. And further, if the Creator and Lord of all things is called also King of Kings and Lord of Lords and God of Gods, surely also the saints are gods and lords and kings. For of these God is and is called God and Lord and King. For I am the God of Abraham, He said to Moses, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. And God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Now I mean gods and kings and lords not in nature, but as rulers and masters of their passions, and as preserving a truthful likeness to the divine image according to which they were made (for the image of a king is also called king), and as being united to God of their own free-will and receiving Him as an indweller and becoming by grace through participation with Him what He is Himself by nature. Surely, then, the worshippers and friends and sons of God are to be held in honour? For the honour shown to the most thoughtful of fellow-servants is a proof of good feeling towards the common Master.” John of Damascene, Orthodox Faith, 4:15 (A.D. 743).

“We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence, not indeed that true worship of faith (latria) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened.” Ecumenical Council of Nicea II, Action VII (A.D. 787).

https://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints-and-intercessory-prayer/#I_Intercessory_Power_and_Veneration_of_the_Saints

Scriptural proofs:
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints-and-intercessory-prayer/#II_God_Desires_and_Responds_to_Our_Subordinate_Mediation_Intercessory_Prayer

The argument that “were there proofs, the Protestants would have been clubbed to death with them” is a bit cheeky, considering there are ample proofs not only of intercessory prayer but of many other Catholic doctrines which they repeatedly ignore despite overwhelming evidence in Scripture and history.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.

Woe is me, because I have held my peace. Isaiah 6