Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 9584 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2019, 02:42:25 PM »
Ecumenism with what is possibly the single-most explicitly anti-Christ religion?

Is it? Islam honors Christ and the Virgin Mary, unlike Judaism which reviles them. The Da Vinci Code movie was banned in Muslim countries, for instance.

John Paul II offered us a more balanced and educated view of this matter. When addressing a symposium on Holiness in Christianity and in Islam, he remarked the following:

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"All true holiness comes from God, who is called ‘The Holy One’ in the sacred books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your holy Qur’an calls God ‘Al-Quddus,’ as in the verse: ‘He is God, besides whom there is no other, the Sovereign, the Holy, the (source of) Peace’ (Qur’an 59, 23). The prophet Hosea links God’s holiness with his forgiving love for mankind, a love which surpasses our ability to comprehend: ‘I am God, not man; I am the Holy One in your midst and have no wish to destroy’ (Ho 11:9). In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus teaches his disciples that holiness consists in assuming, in our human way, the qualities of God’s own holiness which he has revealed to mankind: ‘Be holy, even as your heavenly Father is holy’ (Mt 5:48).

Thus the Qur’an calls you to uprightness (al-salah), to conscientious devotion (al-taqwa), to goodness (al-husn), and to virtue (al-birr), which is described as believing in God, giving one’s wealth to the needy, freeing captives, being constant in prayer, keeping one’s word, and being patient in times of suffering, hardship and violence (Qur’an 2:177). Similarly, St. Paul stresses the love we must show toward all, and the duty to lead a blameless life in the sight of God: ‘May the Lord be generous in increasing your love and make you love one another and the whole human race as much as we love you. And may he so confirm your hearts in holiness that you may be blameless in the sight of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus Christ comes with all his saints’ (1 Th 3:12-13)."

Or his address when visiting the Great Mosque of Damascus:

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"We are meeting close to what both Christians and Muslims regard as the tomb of John the Baptist, known as Yahya in the Muslim tradition. The son of Zechariah is a figure of prime importance in the history of Christianity, for he was the precursor who prepared the way for Christ. John’s life, wholly dedicated to God, was crowned by martyrdom. May his witness enlighten all who venerate his memory here, so that they - and we too - may understand that life’s great task is to seek God’s truth and justice.

The fact that we are meeting in this renowned place of prayer reminds us that man is a spiritual being, called to acknowledge and respect the absolute priority of God in all things. Christians and Muslims agree that the encounter with God in prayer is the necessary nourishment of our souls, without which our hearts wither and our will no longer strives for good but succumbs to evil.

Both Muslims and Christians prize their places of prayer as oases where they meet the all-merciful God on the journey to eternal life and where they meet their brothers and sisters in the bond of religion. When, on the occasion of weddings or funerals or other celebrations, Christians and Muslims remain in silent respect at the other’s prayer, they bear witness to what unites them without disguising or denying the things that separate.

(...)

It is important that Muslims and Christians continue to explore philosophical and theological questions together in order to come to a more objective and comprehensive knowledge of each others’ religious beliefs. Better mutual understanding will surely lead at the practical level to a new way of presenting our two religions not in opposition, as has happened too often in the past, but in partnership for the good of the human family.

Interreligious dialogue is most effective when it springs from the experience of ‘living with each other’ from day to day within the same community and culture. In Syria, Christians and Muslims have lived side by side for centuries, and a rich dialogue of life has gone on unceasingly. Every individual and every family knows moments of harmony and other moments when dialogue has broken down. The positive experiences must strengthen our communities in the hope of peace; and the negative experiences should not be allowed to undermine that hope. For all the times that Muslims and Christians have offended one another, we need to seek forgiveness from the Almighty and offer each other forgiveness. Jesus teaches us that we must pardon others’ offenses if God is to pardon us our sins (cf. Mt. 6:14).

(...)

"As we make our way through life toward our heavenly destiny, Christians feel the company of Mary, the mother of Jesus; and Islam too pays tribute to Mary and hails her as ‘chosen above the women of the world’ (Qur’an, 3:42). The virgin of Nazareth, the Lady of Saydnâya, has taught us that God protects the humble and “scatters the proud in the imagination of their hearts” (Lk. 1:51). May the hearts of Christians and Muslims turn to one another with feelings of brotherhood and friendship, so that the Almighty may bless us with the peace which heaven alone can give. To the one, merciful God be praise and glory forever. Amen."

Being able to understand better the faith of the non-Christian, treating it fairly according to its sources and rulings, and avoiding to bear false witness about his beliefs and religious figures, is already in itself a lofty pursuit for those who love and serve God who alone is Truth.
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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 02:50:38 PM »
Yeah, they honor Christ and the Virgin Mary by besmirching Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and denying the Son.

 ::)
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 06:19:39 PM »
Yeah, they honor Christ and the Virgin Mary by besmirching Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross and denying the Son.

I was responding to the blanket assertion that Islam is "possibly the single-most explicitly anti-Christ religion."

Certainly, as per 1 John 2:22, Islam is also anti-Christian. All religions are. However, the claim is that it's the most anti-Christian religion of all. An odd claim given that Christ isn't treated as a fraudulent preacher and the Blessed Virgin isn't treated as a prostitute unlike, say, in Rabbinic Judaism for instance.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:21:38 PM by Vetus Ordo »
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2019, 06:53:33 AM »
Ecumenism with what is possibly the single-most explicitly anti-Christ religion?

Is it? Islam honors Christ and the Virgin Mary, unlike Judaism which reviles them. The Da Vinci Code movie was banned in Muslim countries, for instance.

Yes, it is, by definition. It explicitly denies the Trinity and divinity of Jesus Christ as a matter of doctrine.

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John Paul II offered us a more balanced and educated view of this matter.

Shut your patronising trap.


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"All true holiness comes from God, who is called ‘The Holy One’ in the sacred books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

The "Allah" of Islam is not God.

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Your holy Qur’an calls God ‘Al-Quddus,’ as in the verse: ‘He is God, besides whom there is no other, the Sovereign, the Holy, the (source of) Peace’ (Qur’an 59, 23).

Yes, the "God" who begets not, nor is begotten. That's not the God of Abraham. Next please.





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The fact that we are meeting in this renowned place of prayer reminds us that man is a spiritual being, called to acknowledge and respect the absolute priority of God in all things. Christians and Muslims agree that the encounter with God in prayer is the necessary nourishment of our souls, without which our hearts wither and our will no longer strives for good but succumbs to evil.

As do Zoroastrians, Brahmins, etc. Who cares.

Quote
Being able to understand better the faith of the non-Christian, treating it fairly according to its sources and rulings, and avoiding to bear false witness about his beliefs and religious figures, is already in itself a lofty pursuit for those who love and serve God who alone is Truth.

I am treating it fairly, like Pharisaic and Talmudic Judaism, as the religion of Satan, the god of this world, the legalistic rigorist who attempts to set his throne above the Most High's and  demands worship or death.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2019, 06:57:59 AM »
Certainly, as per 1 John 2:22, Islam is also anti-Christian. All religions are.

That's at best true implicity. Or it's not true at all.

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However, the claim is that it's the most anti-Christian religion of all. An odd claim given that Christ isn't treated as a fraudulent preacher and the Blessed Virgin isn't treated as a prostitute unlike, say, in Rabbinic Judaism for instance.

That's not a Jewish doctrine with its place in Jewish scripture. It's a rabbinical opinion. Unlike the explicit anti-Christ doctrines of the Qur'an.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2019, 07:14:34 AM »
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“Thus says the great prophet (Allah’s prayers and supplications be upon him) Mahdi is the peacock of all angels and of the dwellers of the heavenly realm, he is dressed and adorned with the cloaks of light.”

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it is He (Allah) Who is the Lord of Sirius.

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Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn (demons) gave ear, and they said: Lo! It is a marvelous Qur’an, Which guides unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe unto our Lord no partner. And (we believe) that He, exalted be the glory of our Lord! Hath taken neither wife nor son.”

 :cheeseheadbeer:

There are demons who are Muslim and worship Allah. That should tell you everything.
 

Offline clau clau

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2019, 09:13:44 AM »
Is it? Islam honors Christ and the Virgin Mary, unlike Judaism which reviles them. The Da Vinci Code movie was banned in Muslim countries, for instance.

Islam's position on Christ is not rational.  My understanding is that Islam recognises Jesus as a prophet.

But if Jesus is only a prophet then the Jews were correct in condemning him since he claimed to be the Son of God and if that was true then how could he be a only a prophet.

Jesus, therefore, by definition, has to be a false prophet OR the Son of God.

Judiasm is wrong but rational (i.e. if Jesus is not the Son of God then he must be an imposter)

Islam is irrational (a prophet who claims to be the Son of God but is not is a false prophet so why honour him).
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 02:58:19 PM by clau clau »
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2019, 03:05:53 PM »
Quote
Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn (demons) gave ear, and they said: Lo! It is a marvelous Qur’an, Which guides unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe unto our Lord no partner. And (we believe) that He, exalted be the glory of our Lord! Hath taken neither wife nor son.”

 :cheeseheadbeer:

There are demons who are Muslim and worship Allah. That should tell you everything.

The Jinn are not demons in the classical Christian sense. They represent a third category of beings between Angels and men.

According to traditional Islamic theology, the Jinn are beings endowed with free will who live on earth in an invisible world parallel to mankind. Just like humans, some choose good and worship God, being Muslims, while others don't. The disbelieving Jinn are also called devils, the chief of which is Iblis or Shaytan. They are not fallen angels, though, like in Christian theology. The chapter you just partially quoted deals with this very subject. However, the translation you provided inserts the word "demons" to explain nafarun mina'l-jinni. This is intentionally misleading and to be expected given the source you took it from (Walid Shoebat). Here's Pickthall's (72:1-13):

Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they said: Lo! we have heard a marvellous Qur'an, which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe no partner unto our Lord. And (we believe) that He - exalted be the glory of our Lord! - hath taken neither wife nor son.

If you are genuinely interest on this subject, here's a traditional fatwa on the Jinn by Sheikh Muhammad Saalih Al-Munajjid, a prominent Saudi Salafi scholar:

Quote from: Islamonline.net
In his capacity as Allah’s vicegerent on earth, man is ordained by Allah to worship Him Alone without partners. Consequently, we should not get absorbed in stories about jinn, as it is not a form of worship. The Qur’an and Sunnah indicate that jinn exist, and that there is a purpose for their existence in this life, which is to worship Allah alone with no partner or associate. Allah Almighty says: "And I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans, except they should worship Me (Alone)." (Adh-Dhariyat: 56)

Scholars are in disagreement over the difference between jinn and demons. Some of them say that the word jinn goes far to encompass the jinn as well as the demons. The word also includes believing and unbelieving jinn. Allah Almighty says, "And among us there are righteous folk and among us there are far from that. We are sects having different rules." (Al-Jinn: 11) "And there are among us some who have surrendered (to Allah) and there are among us some who are unjust. And whoso hath surrendered to Allah, such have taken the right path purposefully." (Al-Jinn: 14)

However, the word demon or shaytan is used to refer to the unbelieving ones among the jinn. Allah Almighty says, "…and the devil was ever an ingrate to his Lord.‏" (Al-Isra’: 27) The world of the jinn is an independent and separate world with its own distinct nature and features that are hidden from the world of humans. Jinn and humans have things in common, such as the ability to understand and choose between good and evil. The word jinn comes from the Arabic root meaning "hidden from sight." Allah Almighty says: "… Verily he (shaytan) and his soldiers from the jinn or his tribe see you from where you cannot see them…" (Al-A`raf: 27) Allah has told us in His Book the essence from which the jinn were created. He says: "And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire." (Al-Hijr : 27) A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) says that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "The angels were created from light, the jinn were created from fire, and Adam was created from that which has been described to you." (Reported by Muslim)

Types of jinn

Allah has created different types of jinn. Among them are some who can take on different forms such as dogs and snakes; some who are like flying winds with wings; and some who can travel and rest. Abu Tha`labah al-Khushni says that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says: "The jinn are of three types: a type that has wings and they fly through the air; a type that looks like snakes and dogs; and a type that stops for a rest then resumes its journey." (Reported by At-Tahawi in Mushkil Al-’Athar)

The jinn and the sons of Adam

Every individual among the sons of Adam has a jinn who has been appointed to be his constant companion (qarin). Ibn Mas'ud reports that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says: "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) says:‘There is not one of you who does not have a jinn appointed to be his constant companion.’They said, ‘And you too, O Messenger of Allah?’ He said,‘Me too, but Allah has helped me and he has submitted, so that he only helps me to do good.’" (Reported by Muslim)

Their powers

Allah has given jinn powers that he has not given to humans. Allah has told us about some of their powers such as the ability to move and travel quickly. One of the jinn guaranteed to Prophet Sulayman (Solomon, peace and blessings be upon him) that he would bring the throne of the Queen of Yemen to Jerusalem in a moment, faster than the time needed for someone to get up from where he was sitting. Allah Almighty says: "A stalwart of the Jinn said: I will bring it thee before thou canst rise from thy place. Lo! I verily am strong and trusty for such work. One with whom was knowledge of the Scripture said: I will bring it thee before thy gaze returneth unto thee. And when he saw it set in his presence, (Solomon said) This is of the bounty of my Lord. That He may try me whether I give thanks or am ungrateful. Whosoever giveth thanks he only giveth thanks for (the good of) his own soul: and whosoever is ungrateful (is ungrateful only to his own soul’s hurt). For lo! My Lord is Absolute in independence, Bountiful." (An-Naml: 39-40)

‏The food and drink of jinn

Ibn Mas'ud reports that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) says: "There came to me an inviter on behalf of the Jinn and I went along with him and recited to them the Qur’an." He (the narrator) said: The Prophet then went along with us and showed us their traces and traces of their embers. The Jinn asked the Prophet about their provision and he said: "Every bone on which the name of Allah is recited is your provision. The time it will fall in your hand it would be covered with flesh, and (you can have) all the droppings as food for your animals." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "So do not use (these things) for cleaning yourselves (after relieving oneself), for they are the food and provision of your brothers (Jinn)." (Reported by Muslim)

The believing jinn may eat any bone on which the name of Allah has been mentioned, because the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) did not permit them to have anything on which Allah’s Name has not been mentioned – those are for the unbelieving jinn.

The beasts of the jinn

According to the Hadith reported by Ibn Mas'ud, that we have quoted above, the jinn asked the Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) for provision, and he said to them: "…and (you can have) all the droppings as food for your animals."

The dwelling-places of the jinn

The jinn live where we do live on this earth. They are mostly to be found in ruins and unclean places like bathrooms, dunghills, garbage dumps and graveyards. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) taught us to take precautions when entering such places, by reciting the adhkar(mentioning Allah’s Name) prescribed by Islam. One of these are reported by Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) who says: "When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) entered the toilet, he would say, ‘Allahumma inni a'udhu bika min al-khubuthi wal-khaba'ith (O Allah, I seek Refuge with You from all offensive and wicked things [evil deeds and evil spirits]).’"

Some Jinn are Muslims and some are non-Muslims

Allah tells us that some of the jinn said "And there are among us some who have surrendered (to Allah) and there are among us some who are unjust. And whoso hath surrendered to Allah, such have taken the right path purposefully.‏" (Al-Jinn: 14)

Protection from harm of jinn

Because jinn can see us while we cannot see them, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) taught us many ways to protect ourselves from their harm. They are seeking refuge of Allah from the accursed shaytan, reciting surat Al-Falaq and surat An-Nas, and reciting the words taught by Allah in the Qur’an. Allah Almighty says, "And say: My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from suggestions of the evil ones. And I seek refuge in Thee, my Lord, lest they be present with me." (Al-Mu’minun: 97-98) Saying Bismillah (in the Name of Allah) before entering one’s home, eating or drinking, and having intercourse will keep Satan from entering the house or partaking with a person in his food, drink and sexual activity. Similarly, mentioning the name of Allah before entering the toilet or taking off one’s clothes will prevent the jinn from seeing a person in a state of undress or harming him. The Prophet (peace and blessings of be upon him) says: "To put a barrier that will prevent the jinn from seeing the`awrah of the sons of Adam, let any one of you say ‘Bismillah’ when entering the toilet." (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)

Strength of faith and religion in general will also prevent jinn from harming a person, so much so that if they were to fight, the one who has faith would win. Ibn Mas'ud (may Allah be pleased with him) says: "A man from among the Companions of Muhammad met a man from among the jinn. They wrestled, and the human knocked down the jinn. The human said to him, ‘You look small and skinny to me, and your forearms look like the front paws of a dog. Do all the jinn look like this, or only you?’ He said, ‘No, by Allah, among them I am strong, but let us wrestle again, and if you defeat me I will teach you something that will do you good.’ The human said, ‘Fine.’ He said, ‘Recite (the verse):“Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous." (Al-Baqarah: 255) The human said, ‘Fine.’ He said, ‘You will never recite this in your house but the shaytan will come out of it like a donkey breaking wind, and he will never come back in until the next morning.’" (Reported by Ad-Darami)
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2019, 03:10:10 PM »
Judaism is wrong but rational (i.e. if Jesus is not the Son of God then he must be an imposter)

Islam is irrational (a prophet who claims to be the Son of God but is not is a false prophet so why honour him).

According to Islam, Jesus never claimed to be God or the son of God. Rather, He was a mighty prophet of Israel. He and His mother are highly revered by the Muslims.

Their position is internally consistent since the Koran is the lens or the criterion by which everything is judged. The Scriptures in the NT that stress Christ's divinity are deemed to have been corrupted and not a part of His original teaching.
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Offline clau clau

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2019, 05:53:36 PM »
Judaism is wrong but rational (i.e. if Jesus is not the Son of God then he must be an imposter)

Islam is irrational (a prophet who claims to be the Son of God but is not is a false prophet so why honour him).

According to Islam, Jesus never claimed to be God or the son of God. Rather, He was a mighty prophet of Israel. He and His mother are highly revered by the Muslims.

Their position is internally consistent since the Koran is the lens or the criterion by which everything is judged. The Scriptures in the NT that stress Christ's divinity are deemed to have been corrupted and not a part of His original teaching.

Would you like to shake hands with Pope 1 or Pope 2 -
 me (inspired by Dr Seuss) see: https://seuss.fandom.com/wiki/Thing_One_and_Thing_Two

But when he's dumb and no more here,
Nineteen hundred years or near,
Clau-Clau-Claudius shall speak clear.
 
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2019, 06:16:41 PM »
The ignore feature is a wonderful thing.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2019, 06:21:42 PM »
I am treating it fairly, like Pharisaic and Talmudic Judaism, as the religion of Satan, the god of this world, the legalistic rigorist who attempts to set his throne above the Most High's and demands worship or death.

It's interesting you keep repeating this claim as if the consequences for rejecting God in Christianity did not consist of death as well, either in this or the next world. It is well known that apostates were commanded to be put to death by God in Deuteronomy, usually by stoning. The death sentence extended to those who violated the Sabbath, cursed their parents, committed homosexual fornication, etc. In fact, the commandment to kill those who deviated from true religion included women and children as well: "whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13) This is confirmed in the Book of Hebrews where the apostle reminds us that "anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." (10:28)

When Joshua exterminated the Canaanites, including their children and babies, obeying a direct command of God, was he also obeying a "legalistic rigorist" that "demands worship or death"? Or was it an extermination out of love?

Even after the preaching of the Gospel, the Church maintained for more than a millennia the right to kill grievous sinners such as heretics, sorcerers, apostates, etc., including the practice of torturing them to obtain confessions and burning them alive at the stake in what is certainly a public spectacle of sadistic cruelty. This practice was only dropped after the victory of the principles of the Enlightenment. But, regardless, the most grievous penalty of all reserved for those who reject the Lord comes after death, when every unredeemed and unrepentant sinner will be thrown into the lake of fire for everlasting destruction. Given that these facts are common knowledge, I'm not sure where your recurring objection comes from.

Your German screen name translates as crusader in English. I'd suppose it reveals some sort of identification with the Teutonic Knights, an order that was instrumental in the subjugation of the Baltic Pagans by order of the Holy See. Do you think that when these knights were busy slaughtering pagans and subduing them into obedience, they were also instruments of "the god of this world" that "demands worship or death"? Or was this subjugation done out of love?

God has every right to demand worship or death. In its essentials, this truth runs through both the Bible and the Koran. In fact, if we don't worship God, we're spiritually dead already.
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2019, 07:54:17 AM »
Quote
Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn (demons) gave ear, and they said: Lo! It is a marvelous Qur’an, Which guides unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe unto our Lord no partner. And (we believe) that He, exalted be the glory of our Lord! Hath taken neither wife nor son.”

 :cheeseheadbeer:

There are demons who are Muslim and worship Allah. That should tell you everything.

The Jinn are not demons in the classical Christian sense. They represent a third category of beings between Angels and men.

And? I'm operating from within the truth of the Christian world view, in which there is no such "third category". It is irrelevant what Islam says of the ontology of djinn; what is relevant is that the category of "demons" of Christianity, like Islam's Iblis, are encompassed by the "djinn", and one faction of these beings are, accordign to Islam itself, Muslim and worship Allah.

Now stop being deliberately obtuse. My assertion is not that Islam declares the djinn to be equivalent to the fallen angels of Christianity; my assertion is that the beings which Mohammed and Muslims call "djinn" are demonic, and some of these beings worship Allah.


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According to traditional Islamic theology, the Jinn are beings endowed with free will who live on earth in an invisible world parallel to mankind. Just like humans, some choose good and worship God, being Muslims, while others don't. The disbelieving Jinn are also called devils, the chief of which is Iblis or Shaytan.

I know all this, Sherlock.

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They are not fallen angels, though, like in Christian theology.

I'm not interested in Islamic views of what "djinn" actually are but in the objective truth of what they actually are.

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The chapter you just partially quoted deals with this very subject. However, the translation you provided inserts the word "demons" to explain nafarun mina'l-jinni. This is intentionally misleading and to be expected given the source you took it from (Walid Shoebat). Here's Pickthall's (72:1-13):

The translation is entirely apt, and it cannot be any more or less "misleading" than is the use of "demon" for translating the Greek "daimon" when the classical Greek concept of the nature of the daimon, which corresponds rather closely with that of the djinn, was rather different from the modern Christian demon.

These beings are demonic, as is Allah and the entire religion of Mohammed, the pox be upon him. Now go cry to your Imam.

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Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they said: Lo! we have heard a marvellous Qur'an, which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe no partner unto our Lord. And (we believe) that He - exalted be the glory of our Lord! - hath taken neither wife nor son.

Yes, indeed. Demons glorifying the work of Lucifer, their lord, who has taken neither wife (an idiotic reference to Mary) nor son. They certainly aren't talking about the God of Abraham, who is Father and Son and definitely has a bride, the Church.


« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 11:26:23 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2019, 08:44:29 AM »
It's interesting you keep repeating this claim as if the consequences for rejecting God in Christianity did not consist of death as well, either in this or the next world.

And I will keep repeating this truth. And that sentence is a straw man. What is being proposed in it is not equivalent to your pseudo-demiurge's demand of worship or death.

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It is well known that apostates were commanded to be put to death by God in Deuteronomy, usually by stoning.

That has a context of tribal loyalty and political expedience in an age of constant warfare and living on the brink of extermination. The law also enshrined divorce, which is an evil. Nevertheless, Deuteronomy is a problematic text, particularly in the context of Josiah's reforms and Hilkiah magical "discovery" of a "Book of the Law", and the corruption of the Old Testament by Jewish scribes from the Second Temple period on is not a conjecture but an objectively demonstrable fact even alleged by the text itself. In any case, I do and will maintain that "othodox Judaism" at the time of the birth of Jesus was totally corrupt, a doctrine of sons of Satan, John 8:44-45.

Thankfully, my faith isn't based in a text but in a real enounter with the person of Jesus Christ, who is the farthest thing in the world from "Allah".

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The death sentence extended to those who violated the Sabbath, cursed their parents, committed homosexual fornication, etc.

None of which is equivalent to a demand of worship or death, especially in the case of the latter two, while the interpretation of the Sabbath commandment you're implying was clearly contradicted by Jesus Christ, a reality in harmony with Jeremiah 8:8.

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In fact, the commandment to kill those who deviated from true religion included women and children as well: "whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:13)

That's not a commandment. It's a chronicle of Asa's reforms.

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This is confirmed in the Book of Hebrews where the apostle reminds us that "anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses." (10:28)

And that is true. It's true regardless of what Yahweh did or did not command and what the Old Testament does or does not say.

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When Joshua exterminated the Canaanites, including their children and babies, obeying a direct command of God, was he also obeying a "legalistic rigorist" that "demands worship or death"?


Well, we know that's not true and such speech of total extermination is an ancient Near-Eastern idiom (e.g. incriptions of Tuthmose III and rameses II), whose literal reading is contradicted by the Biblical text itself.

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Or was it an extermination out of love?

It was an extermination of demonic infestation and Moloch worship upon Earth. And again, this is distinct from a being demanding worship or death. It is an act to stop the committign of great moral and metaphysical evil upon Earth. Nowhere did Yahweh demand that they bow and worship him or be killed. That is what the pagans of Babylon and Rome demanded of the Hebrews and Christians.

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Even after the preaching of the Gospel, the Church maintained for more than a millennia the right to kill grievous sinners such as heretics, sorcerers, apostates, etc., including the practice of torturing them to obtain confessions and burning them alive at the stake in what is certainly a public spectacle of sadistic cruelty. This practice was only dropped after the victory of the principles of the Enlightenment.

None of this pertains to a being demanding worship or death, so I don't even need to get into it as a moral question. Next please.

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But, regardless, the most grievous penalty of all reserved for those who reject the Lord comes after death, when every unredeemed and unrepentant sinner will be thrown into the lake of fire for everlasting destruction.

As an essential consequence of rejecting God, not of a butthurt snowflake of a bloodthirsty dictator not getting his way.

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Given that these facts are common knowledge, I'm not sure where your recurring objection comes from.


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Your German screen name translates as crusader in English. I'd suppose it reveals some sort of identification with the Teutonic Knights, an order that was instrumental in the subjugation of the Baltic Pagans by order of the Holy See. Do you think that when these knights were busy slaughtering pagans and subduing them into obedience, they were also instruments of "the god of this world" that "demands worship or death"? Or was this subjugation done out of love?

I can't say, as I don't know enough about the history and what the Balts where up to.

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God has every right to demand worship or death.

That depends how you define "right". The Jesus Christ I know demands no such thing, and only a prideful, megalomaniacal, batshit insane parasite would. If you want to worship one, go ahead.

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In its essentials, this truth runs through both the Bible and the Koran.

Yes, yes, we know you like to speak of Mohammed's demonically-inspired text in the same breath as the Bible.

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In fact, if we don't worship God, we're spiritually dead already.

That's a totally different proposition.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2019, 11:42:55 AM »
According to Islam, Jesus never claimed to be God or the son of God. Rather, He was a mighty prophet of Israel. He and His mother are highly revered by the Muslims.

They're certainly right that Jesus never claimed to be Allah.


You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

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Their position is internally consistent since the Koran is the lens or the criterion by which everything is judged. The Scriptures in the NT that stress Christ's divinity are deemed to have been corrupted and not a part of His original teaching.

It's funny how the corruptions we know of in the Hebrew scriptures point in the exact opposite direction of the Islamic religion and conception of the deity and toward what Islam considers "polytheism", "idolatry" and pagan.