Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 3716 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2019, 09:43:18 PM »
Its unfortunate that Mark Hanson abandoned Christ who is the source of Life for Mohammad's delusion.

From a Christian perspective, yes.

From an Islamic perspective, it's a blessing that Mark Hanson abandoned the delusion of Paul and the Imperial Church that compromised with Paganism for the light of Allah who alone is the source of life.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2019, 03:33:20 PM »
Directly related to the main subject of this thread, i.e., Muhammad as a mercy to the worlds according to Islamic theology, I've found an interesting talk by the famous Syrian Sufi Sheikh Al-Yaqoubi, himself a descendant of Muhammad.

For those of you who have a genuine interest on the subject, I highly recommend this lecture. It gives us a perfect and unfiltered insight into traditional Islamic spirituality.



Yearning for the Beloved: Reflections on our Attachment to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w).

Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi talks about being a descendant of the Prophet, the blessings associated with name of the Prophet, the virtues and benefits that personal attachment to him bring, some living examples of the pious ulema of Damascus, ending with a theological explanation of what it is to yearn for the Messenger of God.

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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2019, 07:13:53 PM »

Directly related to the main subject of this thread, i.e., Muhammad as a mercy to the worlds according to Islamic theology,


It may be shocking to you, Vetus, that many of us care little about Islamic theology.  It has never been the Church's official position that converts to Catholicism are made by way of a theology in competition with approved Catholic theology.  (Earlier you spoke about evangelization.)

And as to the latter, the emergency evangelization that is needed is within the Novus Ordo, including the hierarchy therein. When baptized Catholics and their purported leaders understand what Catholicism actually is, and convert to that, then any potential converts not yet baptized will have something recognizable to convert to, instead of identifying with ignorant people such as this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/opinion/how-to-defy-the-catholic-church.html

Since you are so fond of V2, surely you are also fond of JP2, its principal cheerleader and PR man.  JP2 interpreted the most important mission of evangelization to be that within the Church.

Yes, by the way, all men yearn for the true God, even when they have a mixed up image and understanding of him.
 
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2019, 08:50:08 PM »
This is the non-Catholic discussion sub forum. My understanding is that this the place for Catholics to engage with other religions. If you have no interest in doing that, why post in the thread? What is the point in derailing a discussion that others are interested in having? If you feel that this sub forum should not exist, why not bring your concerns to the forum owner?
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2019, 10:03:21 PM »
On what basis can it be claimed Sheikh Al-Yaquobi’s brand of Islam is traditional and its insight unfiltered?
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2019, 10:06:01 PM »
This is the non-Catholic discussion sub forum. My understanding is that this the place for Catholics to engage with other religions. If you have no interest in doing that, why post in the thread? What is the point in derailing a discussion that others are interested in having? If you feel that this sub forum should not exist, why not bring your concerns to the forum owner?

You couldn't be more wrong.  I very much have an interest in participating in discussions which include the supposed value of non-Catholic ideologies on Catholics and on the Church.  This is the same kind of exclusionary argument some use to dissuade contributors to the SV forum:  If you don't agree with us, don't bother to post.

It's a discussion forum, which means that I get to discuss issues as much as you do and anyone else does, including when you don't agree with me, I don't agree with you, or neither of us agrees with a particular poster.

It is not yours or the OP's prerogative to limit dissent.

 
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Offline Fleur-de-Lys

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2019, 10:37:31 PM »
You couldn't be more wrong.  I very much have an interest in participating in discussions which include the supposed value of non-Catholic ideologies on Catholics and on the Church.  This is the same kind of exclusionary argument some use to dissuade contributors to the SV forum:  If you don't agree with us, don't bother to post.

It's a discussion forum, which means that I get to discuss issues as much as you do and anyone else does, including when you don't agree with me, I don't agree with you, or neither of us agrees with a particular poster.

It is not yours or the OP's prerogative to limit dissent.

MiriamM,
My comments were not directed to you specifically, but to many posting in this sub forum who seem more interested in shutting down the discussion than in furthering it. But it certainly seemed to me that that was what you were doing here:

It may be shocking to you, Vetus, that many of us care little about Islamic theology.  It has never been the Church's official position that converts to Catholicism are made by way of a theology in competition with approved Catholic theology. (Earlier you spoke about evangelization.)

And as to the latter, the emergency evangelization that is needed is within the Novus Ordo including the hierarchy therein. When baptized Catholics and their purported leaders understand what Catholicism actually is, and convert to that, then any potential converts not yet baptized will have something recognizable to convert to, instead of identifying with ignorant people such as this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/opinion/how-to-defy-the-catholic-church.html

Since you are so fond of V2, surely you are also fond of JP2, its principal cheerleader and PR man.  JP2 interpreted the most important mission of evangelization to be that within the Church.

Yes, by the way, all men yearn for the true God, even when they have a mixed up image and understanding of him.

Is this not a demand to talk about Catholic theology rather than Islamic? How does that make sense in the context of this subforum?

I have no interest whatsoever in stifling dissenting views. I would like nothing more than to see a lively discussion of the topic of this thread.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 10:45:22 PM by Fleur-de-Lys »
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2019, 12:14:41 AM »
As we deepen our understanding of Islam and the person of Muhammad in a climate of peace and scholarly dialogue, will we finally reach a more balanced view of one of the most important men to have ever walked the planet?

As we deepen our understanding of Islam we are finding that it is much worse than we could ever imagine.  As we deepen our understanding of the person of Muhammad we are starting to understand how Islam got to be such a scourge upon the earth.
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2019, 03:24:10 AM »
As we deepen our understanding of Islam and the person of Muhammad in a climate of peace and scholarly dialogue, will we finally reach a more balanced view of one of the most important men to have ever walked the planet?

As we deepen our understanding of Islam we are finding that it is much worse than we could ever imagine.  As we deepen our understanding of the person of Muhammad we are starting to understand how Islam got to be such a scourge upon the earth.

And as we deepen our awareness of the agendas of the leaders of the modern world and of modernism within the Church, we are starting to understand how men who began as naive ecumenists evolved into outright apologists for the infidels.
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2019, 05:03:50 AM »
The Antichrist is the most important person in history after Christ, and he will be a great reformer and seemingly just, zealous, and religious man who will ostensibly bring world peace. I am sure he will be lauded for his great mercy, even while he ruthlessly massacres his enemies (the few remaining true-believing Christians).
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2019, 08:19:39 AM »
Its unfortunate that Mark Hanson abandoned Christ who is the source of Life for Mohammad's delusion.

From a Christian perspective, yes.

From an Islamic perspective, it's a blessing that Mark Hanson abandoned the delusion of Paul and the Imperial Church that compromised with Paganism for the light of Allah who alone is the source of life.

No, as an objective fact independent of any perspective.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2019, 09:04:53 AM »
And? I'm operating from within the truth of the Christian world view, in which there is no such "third category". It is irrelevant what Islam says of the ontology of djinn
I'm not interested in Islamic views of what "djinn" actually are but in the objective truth of what they actually are.

This sums up the matter quite well.

You're not really interested in engaging meaningfully with what Islam teaches about itself. This is plainly obvious. Fortunately, there are other Catholics who have realized by now that categorizing the whole religion of Muslims simply as a demonic enterprise does a disservice to truth and to the preaching of the Gospel. In fact, the spectacular failure of the Church in evangelizing Muslims down in history is partially explained by this attitude of contempt and ignorance.

That's a total misrepresention of the sense of my words. What Islam teaches of itself is of interest as data for analysis in arriving at the objective truth, but it is not the objective truth. Your "repudiation" of the assertion that djinn are demons is to repeat the position of Islam, a move which I can't be sure is one of a believer in Islamic teaching or the subjectivist waffle of a Jesuit, and that is, for me, not an argument.

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my assertion is that the beings which Mohammed and Muslims call "djinn" are demonic, and some of these beings worship Allah.

This is simply a gratuitous assertion, typical of a polemicist.

No, it's not a gratuitous assertion. It, firstly, fits the djinn, given the characteristics which exclude them from the being members of the angelic host (they are sexual, they can sin, and they can be converted into Muslims, for instance), into the only place they can occupy within the Christian tradition. Secondly, it is, under that same Christian tradition and Psalm 95:5, congruent with their pre-Islamic origins in idolatrous practices within which they were worshipped as gods. Lastly, it is confirmed by my own experience, so I know you're wrong.

And, lest I forget, do these good djinn who worship Allah testify to the Trinity and the incarnation of the divinity in Jesus Christ, as any angel of God would? What do you call a non-human spirit that affirms the Shahada, genius? An angel of God?

In any case, I have serious doubts you even believe in the reality of djinn.

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And bizarre assertion since, if it were true, we'd have some demons worshipping Allah (the devil, according to you) and other demons refusing to worship Allah (the devil, according to you) and going on about harassing the lives of the Muslims.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asserting, which is not intrinsically bizarre at all, and it implies a solution to the problem of the two falls found within the Hebraeo-Christian tradition, that of Lucifer which predated the fall of Adam and that of the Watchers, also implied in the text of Genesis, which post-dated it.

I've never given anyone reason to believe I regard Lucifer as an impish devil who goes about causing mischief in the lives of humans but have always insisted on his identity as a false "God", tyrant and Jobian legalist par excellence who demands worship and blood,  the liar in whom there is no truth and the murderer from the beginning. The image of the  impish devil and receiving marginal worship through explicitly Satanic cults simply do not meet those criteria: only false monotheisms that replace the Blessed Trinity of El Elyon, Yahweh and the Ruach Hakodesh with an impostor unitarian "God" do that.

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The translation is entirely apt, and it cannot be any more or less "misleading" than is the use of "demon" for translating the Greek "daimon" when the classical Greek concept of the nature of the daimon, which corresponds rather closely with that of the djinn, was rather different from the modern Christian demon.

Shoebat's translation is obviously misleading because it uses the English word demons between brackets to categorize what the Jinn are.

Shoebat's commentary is entirely accurate, as djinn are in fact demonic.

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If confers a meaning that is alien to the Arabic text and to Islamic theology, since not all Jinn are evil and those who are don't worship Allah. It's not a translation: a translation remains faithful to the original text in letter and spirit.

Shoebat's insertion of demons is nothing but a polemical jab.

Shoebat isn't writing a history or an academic translation: he's writing as a Catholic about a demonic religion.

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Now go cry to your Imam.

You often sound like an angry 9 year old throwing a temper tantrum.

I'm not a convert like you, Kreuzritter, so tone it down.
[/quote]

You were born Muslim then?

« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 05:01:10 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2019, 10:13:36 AM »
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1. The Law of Moses, dictated by God, contains evil commandments;

No, that's impossible.

2. Evil is tolerated therein for expedience' sake;

As per Jesus' own words in Matthew 19:8. The letter of the Law didn't save and could never save.

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3. The text of the OT that has been cherished by the Christ, the Apostles and the Church as God's word, has been corrupted.

This is simply an objective fact. Genesis 18:22 is but one proof text. Jeremiah 8:8, understanding who the soferim were durign the Second Temple Period, confirms it.

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We can't be entirely sure of the original contents of the Law.

Nobody said that.

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The Canaanites were not given the option of worshipping Yahweh or death.

If you cannot grasp the distinction between being put to death for committing a heinous act of evil and being put to death for refusing to perform an act of worship, the rest of us can.

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Their extermination was decreed right off the bat by God because they were idol-worshippers.

No. The Hebrew tradition has a lot more to say about the Canaanites than "mere" idolatry. They were sodomites, cannibals and child-sacrificers who invoked demons into the world and poisoned the very earth upon which they stood.

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In the Koran, the pagans are at least given an opportunity to repent and convert before facing the wrath of the scimitar.

And your true feelings begin to show again ...

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The spirit presiding both accounts, however, is similar: God is to be worshipped above all things. Those who refuse it and who confuse the terrestrial creation for the celestial truth face death.

No, that's not the spirit of the account. The example from Christian history would be the conquest of Mexico: the Aztecs were annihilated, as an entity, for their blasphemous existence while the other pagan tribes, idolaters no less, were converted by the efforts of missionaries.

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For instance, Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu, were struck dead on the spot by God because they didn't worship Him as He commanded.

That's a nice ambiguous sentence. They weren't killed for refusing God worship; they died for the same reason a man who walks into a nuclear reactor without a radiation suit will die.

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Clearly, God has a more stringent view of His holiness and His right to be worshipped than what you seem to give Him credit for.

I've never mentioned holiness. I've never mentioned the right to be worshipped. If you confuse these with a right to demand worship or mete out death and bow to a being you perceive as behaving like this, that's fine - the Pharisees were too.

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None of this pertains to a being demanding worship or death, so I don't even need to get into it as a moral question. Next please.

Heretics, apostates, sorcerers, etc., were put to death precisely because they refused to worship Christ, either in toto, or as the Church commands. So yes, it's completely relevant.

Again: none of this pertains to a being demanding worship or death. Squeal and squirm as much as you like.

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As an essential consequence of rejecting God, not of a butthurt snowflake of a bloodthirsty dictator not getting his way.

The consequences are the same: either you turn to God in repentance and worship Him or you die. Except that in Islam, hell is intrinsically purgatorial so some people can get out of it.

Again: it's as different as dying because you refuse to eat and dying because somebody puts a bullet in your head for refusing to eat when he tells you to. One view regards God as the live-giving source of infinite love; the other turns God into Quare's lightning-hurling caricature who throws his toys out the cot and kills people because they won't praise him.

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Thankfully, my faith isn't based in a text but in a real enounter with the person of Jesus Christ, who is the farthest thing in the world from "Allah".

That's in the realm of phenomenology, so I won't delve into it.
[/quote]

This is in the realm of reality, and you'd better not, since its apparent you're ignorant of both.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2019, 10:17:01 AM »
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In terms of apologetics, I think James White's approach, with his now long history of debates with high-ranking Muslim apologists like Shabir Ally or Abdullah Kunde, to be much more serious, engaging and balanced, though.


Observe this cuck defending Muslim violence against someone calling Mohammed what he was: a paedophile.

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How is anyone ever going to have an opportunity again to reach out to that woman ...

In your Satanic Calvinist theology, James White, it's irrelevant; if she's goign to Hell, she's already predestined to it regardless of her actions or anyone else's. Birds of a feather, I guess.



« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:43:59 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2019, 02:44:35 PM »
On what basis can it be claimed Sheikh Al-Yaquobi’s brand of Islam is traditional and its insight unfiltered?

Sheikh Al-Yaqoubi is a traditional scholar of the Maliki school. He's also a Sufi master which puts him in a position to speak both of the legal and mystical aspects of Islamic theology.

Furthermore, Al-Yaqoubi is a descendant of Muhammad and those who are descendants of the Ahl ul-Bayt enjoy great prestige and reverence in the Muslim world.

Here's a short biography of the Sheikh in the website Sacred Knowledge, a "UK initiative started by the erudite scholar of Syria, Shaykh Sayyid Muhammad al-Yaqoubi, dedicated to spreading the teachings of orthodox Islam":

Quote from: Sacred Knowledge
Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi

Al-Allamah Shaykh as-Sayyid Muhammad al-Yaqoubi is one of the greatest scholars in the world today. In Syria, and particularly in his home city of Damascus, the Shaykh rose to great prominence in recent times for defending the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace), and being one of the first from amongst the ulema to courageously condemn the brutal Syrian government at the start of the popular uprising. In the West, he is an extremely eminent and distinguished preacher amongst Muslim minorities, and a caller to Islam, thousands having embraced the religion through his powerful and uncompromising lectures, wise words and charismatic approach. For several years running, the Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute has included him as one of the 500 most influential Muslims in the world.

Shaykh Muhammad descends from a scholarly family that traces its roots back to Morocco, and lineage to the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace). He is both a sufi and jurist, continuing the glorious legacy of his late father, the Imam of the famous Grand Umayyad Mosque in Damascus, the gnostic, and polymath of Syria, Sayyid Ibrahim al-Yaqoubi (Allah show him mercy), as well as his grandfather, the erudite Imam, gnostic and ascetic, Shaykh Ismail al-Yaqoubi (Allah show him mercy). Prior to being forced into exile in 2011, Shaykh Muhammad was teaching regularly at the Umayyad Mosque, as well as being the weekly Friday speaker at the Hassan Mosque in the Abu Rumana district of Damascus. He also taught regular classes at the Mosque of Shaykh al-Akbar Muhyiddeen Ibn ‘Arabi.

From an early age, Sayyid Ibrahim al-Yaqoubi supervised Shaykh Muhammad’s upbringing and tutelage, ensuring that every aspect of his son’s life was developed with the most detailed care under the guidance of the Sharia. For over 20 years, Shaykh Muhammad studied over 500 books with his father, in the sciences of the Qur’an, Hadith, Fiqh, Mantiq and many other fields. His father gave him full authority to narrate Hadith, to teach and issue fatwa. He also received many other ijazas from the most prominent scholars of Syria, including Mufti Abul Yusr ‘Abidin and Shaykh Makki al-Kittani (Allah show them mercy), granting him some of the shortest isnads on the face of the Earth. The Shaykh is fluent in several languages including Arabic, English, and Swedish, and has trained several hundreds of scholars, imams and preachers both in Syria and the West. He is the author of a number of books in Arabic, as well as several poems in both Arabic and English. He has travelled the world extensively and participated in conferences, lectures and taught several intensive programmes from Finland to South Africa, and Indonesia to the West coast of the USA.

The Shaykh currently resides in Morocco with his wife and 3 children, and continues to teach the sacred sciences to scholars and students.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.