Author Topic: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?  (Read 3486 times)

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6766
  • Thanked: 4434 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2019, 06:21:10 PM »
Christians receiving Aristotle through the Moslems is a myth; there is ample documentation of earlier translations of the Stagirite from Greek Christian sources.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: Pon de Replay, mikemac, Miriam_M, Xavier

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
  • Thanked: 1780 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2019, 07:40:39 PM »
Christians receiving Aristotle through the Moslems is a myth; there is ample documentation of earlier translations of the Stagirite from Greek Christian sources.

True, but the question would be how many of Aristotle's works, how widely they were read, and how serious an influence Aristotle had on Christian philosophy until the Scholastics.  Most of the Nicene and post-Nicene Church Fathers seem to have been some stripe of Christian Neoplatonist (a contradiction in terms, in my view, but let it be).

Wikipedia | Recovery of Aristotle

I once read somewhere that Aquinas cited the Pseudo-Dionysus more frequently than Aristotle.  I don't know if that's true, but even so, he enshrines Aristotle as "the Philosopher"—no name needed, in the same way it's customary to cite St. Paul as simply "the Apostle."  Or when people say "the King," we know they're talking about Elvis.  There does not seem to have been much Aristotle in the Christian water prior to how much there was in the thirteenth century and onward.  The translations from Averroes appear to have been an important part of that.

Kreuzritter's little meme is funny, but you could substitute "Nietzsche" or "St. Thomas Aquinas" for Julius Evola, and it would not devalue the joke. 
 

Offline mikemac

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6985
  • Thanked: 3136 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2019, 02:05:05 AM »

Islam and Tradition: Evola’s Thoughts on Islam


Who would care what Julius Evola has to say?  I mean other than a freemason or an ecumaniac.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 

Offline Miriam_M

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 5971
  • Thanked: 3759 times
  • Never have been "MiriamB"
  • Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2019, 02:26:44 AM »

Islam and Tradition: Evola’s Thoughts on Islam


Who would care what Julius Evola has to say?  I mean other than a freemason or an ecumaniac.

Suscipe Domine, Muslim Discussion Forum
 
The following users thanked this post: clau clau, martin88nyc

Offline mikemac

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6985
  • Thanked: 3136 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2019, 02:38:57 AM »

Islam and Tradition: Evola’s Thoughts on Islam


Who would care what Julius Evola has to say?  I mean other than a freemason or an ecumaniac.

Suscipe Domine, Muslim Discussion Forum

Yeah Miriam, this is getting ridiculous.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
The following users thanked this post: martin88nyc

Offline Davis Blank - EG

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
  • Thanked: 655 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2019, 11:13:26 PM »
St. Brigid of Ireland was not the Celtic goddess Brigid.

Yes, and I wasn't clear on that.  When I said the goddess was demoted to a saint, I meant that the worship of her was suppressed, but that many of her attributes were found in the stories of the saint, so that there was a transference from the one to the other.  It is difficult to see the communion of saints (and the intercession of the saints) as something other than a transferal of the pagan pantheons, especially in that so many of the feast days coincide with the ancient holidays.  Praying to the saints for certain causes replaced the practice of praying to the old gods.  I was just using it as example of how the Semitism had to be diluted.

But I don't mean to say that all hagiographies are based on non-existent people (though a few possibly were).  Most were actual saints who simply accrued certain pagan associations posthumously.

This observation is well known - is the purpose in bringing it up to suggest that the veneration of saints is objectively wrong (either in that it displeases God or that the saints have nothing to do with us), or is the purpose to suggest that it is indeed appropriate?

Some will state that all civilizations have some form of a story about a great flood, and so that shows that this is a common myth among man that we keep making up this same story.  Or others would say this shows the existence of a great flood, as there are so many diverse testimonies to it.

It is similar to a court room case.  "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what you have seen today are people of all walks of life coming to testify that my client beat that woman and stole her bag.  Some say they saw my client wearing a red shirt with blue jeans, others an orange shirt with navy slacks, and yet another said they only saw the bag in my client's hand but had no recollection of his clothing.  Furthermore, some testify they did not even see an assault but only recgonize my client's face as he ran past them.  With so many diverse narratives of what happened we must conclude that this is a common narrative, a common myth, among human beings, that so many people would tell such a story.  It comes from the deep psychological core of our ancestral minds, from when we were living on the plains of Africa and witnessed innocent gazelles running away from lions.  Ladies and gentlemen, with what are we left to believe but that this is a mere psychological aberration?"

The evidence goes both ways.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
  • Thanked: 779 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2019, 04:13:14 AM »
Quote
I was just using it as example of how the Semitism had to be diluted.

Big assumption there that the ancient Hebrews didn't venerate saints and a curiously ahistorical notion of how monotheistic the people were. Probably based on projecting "orthodox Judaism" and Pharisaism onto the past. What exactly is "Semitism"?
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
  • Thanked: 1780 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2019, 07:34:30 AM »
This observation is well known - is the purpose in bringing it up to suggest that the veneration of saints is objectively wrong (either in that it displeases God or that the saints have nothing to do with us), or is the purpose to suggest that it is indeed appropriate?

I am neutral on the practice of intercessory prayer to saints.  I only offer here that the prevalence of it in Christianity, as opposed to the comparative dearth in Judaism, along with the fact that the aspects and holidays of some ancient gods were transferred to some of the saints, seems to illustrate a concession to the missionary territory (polytheistic paganism).  "You can still keep up the practice of praying to certain heavenly denizens for certain things."


« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 01:10:27 PM by Pon de Replay »
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
  • Thanked: 1780 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #113 on: July 18, 2019, 07:36:13 AM »
Big assumption there that the ancient Hebrews didn't venerate saints and a curiously ahistorical notion of how monotheistic the people were. Probably based on projecting "orthodox Judaism" and Pharisaism onto the past. What exactly is "Semitism"?

If the ancient Jews did pray to saints, then even according to Catholicism, they would've been in error, as the righteous among the dead were still in the Limbo of the Fathers at that time.  There are a lot of prayers recorded in the Old Testament.  How many of them are petitions to the dead such as Abraham, Moses, and Elijah for intercession?

Let "Semitism" refer to the religious activities and doctrines pertaining to the God of the Hebrews as found in the OT.  Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are Semitic religions.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 07:48:28 AM by Pon de Replay »
 

Offline John Lamb

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1492
  • Thanked: 1637 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #114 on: July 18, 2019, 07:53:18 AM »
Big assumption there that the ancient Hebrews didn't venerate saints and a curiously ahistorical notion of how monotheistic the people were. Probably based on projecting "orthodox Judaism" and Pharisaism onto the past. What exactly is "Semitism"?

If the ancient Jews did venerate saints, then even according to Catholicism, they would've been in error, as the righteous among the dead were still in the Limbo of the Fathers at that time.  There are a lot of prayers recorded in the Old Testament.  How many of them are petitions to the dead such as Abraham, Moses, and Elijah for intercession?

Distinguish forms of veneration. To venerate the memory of your ancestors, filial piety, is different than to venerate a saint as a living being with spiritual powers, religious piety. The incarnation, resurrection, and ascension of Christ has spiritually elevated humanity, so the saints of the NT are now living godlike beings whom we can address prayers to, while the saints of the OT were still waiting for this elevation in limbo. Still, the veneration of holy ancestors was a kind of prefigurement of the veneration of the saints, just as the OT was a prefigurement of the NT.

Quote
Let "Semitism" refer to the religious activities and doctrines pertaining to the God of the Hebrews as found in the OT.  Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are Semitic religions.

Christianity is a catholic religion. Like the church fathers say, it has in a sense existed all over the world since the beginning of time.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
  • Thanked: 1780 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #115 on: July 18, 2019, 08:14:11 AM »
Distinguish forms of veneration. To venerate the memory of your ancestors, filial piety, is different than to venerate a saint as a living being with spiritual powers, religious piety. The incarnation, resurrection, and ascension of Christ has spiritually elevated humanity, so the saints of the NT are now living godlike beings whom we can address prayers to, while the saints of the OT were still waiting for this elevation in limbo. Still, the veneration of holy ancestors was a kind of prefigurement of the veneration of the saints, just as the OT was a prefigurement of the NT.

Correct.  We have to make the distinction between the mere veneration of, as opposed to intercessory prayer to, the saints, or the dead.  We also need to consider how developed the notion of petitioning saints was in the first century.  The Protestants have a point that it does not appear evident in the NT.  St. Paul said the elect were merely "asleep" and waiting for the trumpet to sound—something more like the limbus patrum than an active communion of "living godlike beings whom we can address prayers to."

Christianity is a catholic religion. Like the church fathers say, it has in a sense existed all over the world since the beginning of time.

"In a sense" is pretty nebulous.  The non-Semitic religions were abhorrent to the God of the Hebrews.  "All the gods of the pagans are devils." 

I do not dispute that the Church Fathers taught that Christianity was nascent in some sense everywhere; indeed, I consider it part of the ecumenical and syncretic efforts toward Hellenism.    The Sibylline oracles were interpreted as foretelling it, and Justin Martyr called Plato a "Christian before Christ."  St. Augustine said it most famously—but didn't he also include it in his retractions?
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
  • Thanked: 779 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2019, 09:11:41 AM »
If the ancient Jews did pray to saints, then even according to Catholicism, they would've been in error, as the righteous among the dead were still in the Limbo of the Fathers at that time.

If they did, then it's irrelevant to the point whether Catholicism would consider them in error or not or if they were objectively in error or not. What we're interested in is what Semites actually did and believed.

Quote
There are a lot of prayers recorded in the Old Testament.  How many of them are petitions to the dead such as Abraham, Moses, and Elijah for intercession?

From Wikipedia:

Judaism
Quote
While orthodox and organized Judaism do not countenance the veneration of saints per se, veneration and pilgrimage to burial sites of holy Jewish leaders is an ancient part of the tradition.[30]

Today it is common for some Jews to visit the graves of many righteous Jewish leaders.[31] The tradition is particularly strong among Moroccan Jews, and Jews of Sephardi descent, although also by some Ashkenazi Jews as well. This is particularly true in Israel, where many holy Jewish leaders are buried. The Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem and that of Maimonides in Tiberius are examples of burial sites that attract large pilgrimages in Israel.[1][2] In America, the only such example is the grave site of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, at the Ohel, in the cemetery in Queens where he is buried alongside his father-in-law. During his lifetime, Schneerson himself would frequently visit the gravesite (Ohel) of his father-in-law, where he would read letters and written prayers, and then place them on the grave.[32] Today visitors to the grave of Schneerson include Jews of Orthodox, Reform and Conservative background, as well as non-Jews.[33][34] Visitors typically recite prayers of psalms and bring with them petitions of prayers written on pieces of paper which are then torn and left on the grave.[35][36][37]

In particular

Quote
"....the veneration of, and pilgrimages to, saints were part of an ancient Jewish tradition." Sharot, Stephen (1976). Judaism: A Sociology. New York: Holmes & Meier Publishers. p. 42

You act like these are Christian innovations, possibly adopted from paganism. Implicit in this is a denial of the continuity between Christianity, with its Trinity, Mariology and veneration of saitns and images, and the ancient Hebrew religious tradition, and this can only be founded in taking "Orthodox Judaism", that of the Pharisees, Rabbis and Talmud, to be preresentative of an ancient Hebrew religious monolith. To the contrary, I propose that Apostolic Christianity is representative of and in continuity with the ancient beliefs and practices that date to the First Temple Period and survived through to the time of Jesus, even if they had been rejected by the Pharisees and Scribes who represented the "official" post-exilic religon. In any case, religious syncretism and polytheistic worship were part and parcel of Hebrew history, and the Bible does not contradict this assertion but recapitulates it.

Nevertheless, there are intances of this in the Bible that slip through the cracks. In Matthew 27:47, we see the Jews interpret Jesus' words as crying to Elijah. This makes no sense unless calls for intercession were known in Jewish culture of the time. There is also the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and Genesis features a prayer addressed to an angel.

I quote from chabad.org:

Quote
The Torah tells us that Caleb, one of the twelve spies that Moses sent to spy out the Land of Canaan, made a personal detour to Hebron. What was his interest in Hebron? The Talmud (Sotah 34b) tells that he wished to pray at the cave where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. He prayed there for mercy on his soul and he was saved from the fateful decision of the other spies.

And further:

Quote
The Talmud also states that it is customary to visit a cemetery on a fast day (Taanit 16a). Why? Typical of the Talmud (and anything that involves Jewish people), two opinions are provided: Some say that this is simply to remind those who are fasting of their own mortality—a graveyard can be a magically effective cold-bucket of inspiration when you're feeling smug and self-assured. But others say that this is in order to connect to ask the souls of the righteous who are buried there that they intercede on our behalf. In fact, the Zohar states that if it were not for the intercession of those souls who reside in that afterworld, our world would not endure for a moment.

Quote
Let "Semitism" refer to the religious activities and doctrines pertaining to the God of the Hebrews as found in the OT.  Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are Semitic religions.

So the religion of the Canaanites, Assyrians, Babylonians, ancient Arabs, etc. are not examples of "Semtism"? That's not a particularly useful term to me then, not only because it gives no context to the OT from which to derive its meaning, but because I don't see that much essential in common between Apostolic Christianity and "Judaism" and Islam. But I guess you will chalk up those differences to pagan influence or something, even though Islam is centuries younger than Christianity and Judaism as we know it at the very least no older.
 
The following users thanked this post: mikemac, Michael Wilson, Xavier

Offline Pon de Replay

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3670
  • Thanked: 1780 times
  • Religion: Agnostic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2019, 12:57:51 PM »
... examples of Jews making pilgrimages to venerate their ancestors and honor the dead ...

This has nothing to with praying to the dead for their intercession.  If the term "Semitism" is too inaccurate for you, I can use "Hebraism."

You act like these are Christian innovations, possibly adopted from paganism.

No.  My claim is that intercessory prayer to the saints is the innovation.  Did the ancient Hebrews, as a practice, pray to the dead for their intercession?  It's curious that a Catholic would claim this, because the Church teaches that the righteous dead, before the harrowing of hell, remained in Limbo.  It would be strange if the people with whom God made a covenant, and to whom he gave a revelation, would've been so mistaken about this.

In any case, religious syncretism and polytheistic worship were part and parcel of Hebrew history, and the Bible does not contradict this assertion but recapitulates it.

Polytheistic worship was condemned by the God of the Hebrews.  That this was forbidden to them is found in the very first commandment.  At every juncture when the Israelites went whoring after other Gods, they were chastised.  "For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God."

Nevertheless, there are intances of this in the Bible that slip through the cracks. In Matthew 27:47, we see the Jews interpret Jesus' words as crying to Elijah. This makes no sense unless calls for intercession were known in Jewish culture of the time.

Which seems to be an interpolation.  Anyway, Elijah wasn't dead.  From the corresponding footnote in the NABRE:

Quote
This prophet, taken up into heaven (2 Kgs 2:11), was believed to come to the help of those in distress, but the evidences of that belief are all later than the gospels.
 
The following users thanked this post: abc123

Offline Xavier

  • Immaculate Heart of Divine Mother Mary, Save us and the Whole World. Sweet Heart of Immaculate Mary, make of Pope Mario-Francis a Great Saint. Purest Immaculate Heart of Mary, Preserve the Hierarchy, Clergy and Religious in the Truth of the Catholic Faith
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3694
  • Thanked: 2864 times
  • Indian Catholic
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: Catholic Christian (Roman Rite Latin Traditionalist)
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2019, 01:39:35 PM »
Dear Pon, in the sacred Book of the Macchabees, we read that the Prophet Jeremiah was praying for the Holy City during that time of crisis. Also, the Holy High Priest Onias, who had passed into eternity a while earlier, was praying. Limbo is an intermediate place for souls. There in Limbo, the souls can do all that God permits them to do, except they cannot see the Beatific vision as of yet until Christ had come.

2 Macc 15: "What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest,* a noble and good man, modest in bearing, gentle in manner, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.13 Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air of wondrous and majestic authority. 14 Onias then said of him, “This is a man* who loves his fellow Jews and fervently prays for the people and the holy city—the prophet of God, Jeremiah.” 15 Stretching out his right hand, Jeremiah presented a gold sword to Judas. As he gave it to him he said, 16 “Accept this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you shall shatter your adversaries.”

Here is more on the Great High Priest Onias, a figure and type of Jesus Christ to come, the Greatest High Priest, Who offered Himself as Victim for all sins. From http://www.usccb.org/bible/2maccabees/3

The Restoration and Testimony of Heliodorus.

29 As Heliodorus lay speechless because of God’s action and deprived of any hope of recovery,
30 the people praised the Lord who had marvelously glorified his own place; and the temple, charged so shortly before with fear and commotion, was filled with joy and gladness, now that the Almighty Lord had appeared.
31 Quickly some of the companions of Heliodorus begged Onias to call upon the Most High to spare the life of one who was about to breathe his last.
32 The high priest, suspecting that the king might think that Heliodorus had suffered some foul play at the hands of the Jews, offered a sacrifice for the man’s recovery.
33 While the high priest was offering the sacrifice of atonement, the same young men dressed in the same clothing again appeared and stood before Heliodorus. “Be very grateful to the high priest Onias,” they told him. “It is for his sake that the Lord has spared your life.
34 Since you have been scourged by Heaven, proclaim to all God’s great power.” When they had said this, they disappeared."


Now, for Vetus, and others, on the earlier topic, of Muslims being baptized and converted to Christ; there are and were reports, by the Grace of God, of millions of Muslims converting to the Church: God Almighty is still doing the great things He did in the Bible, if we believe Him, and if we carefully follow His doings around the world, extol them, make them known, and pray for more such great things.

Quote
"Islam used to represent, as you previously mentioned, Africa's main religion and there were 30 African languages that used to be written in Arabic script. The number of Muslims in Africa has diminished to 316 million, half of whom are Arabs in North Africa. So in the section of Africa that we are talking about, the non Arab section, the number of Muslims does not exceed 150 million people. When we realize that the entire population of Africa is one billion people, we see that the number of Muslims has diminished greatly from what it was in the beginning of the last century. On the other hand, the number of Catholics has increased from one million in 1902 to 329 million 882 thousand (329,882,000). Let us round off that number to 330 million in the year 2000.

As to how that happened, well there are now 1.5 million churches whose congregations account for 46 million people. In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed.

From what I have heard from reliable sources, six million may be too low. Reliable accounts say that one hundred thousand Africans convert to Christianity per day, though not all of them come from Islam. Then Katani says Muslims should build schools before mosques, in order to build the worshipper (Muslim) before the building. Why? To stop the the dangerous "Christian missionary octopus..."
https://virtueonline.org/six-million-african-muslims-convert-christianity-each-year

Quote
"Africa has seen the births or conversions of nearly 50 million people in the last year

New data, released earlier this year, announced that Africa holds the largest number of Christians in the world. This moves the reigning champs of the title, Latin America into 2nd place.

The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, produced an infographic which breaks down the world’s Christian population by continent. The results show Africa on top with 631 million Christian residents, Latin America in 2nd place with 601 million Christians, and Europe in 3rd place with 571 million Christians.

CBS News reports the African countries with the highest percentages of Christian residents are Zambia (95.5%), the Republic of Seychelles (94.7%), and Rowanda (93.6).

A 2017 survey by the same group had Africa at 582 million Christians and Latin America at 591 million. This means Africa has seen the births or conversions of nearly 50 million people in the last year. Similarly, Latin America has increased by about 10 million."
From: https://aleteia.org/2018/07/24/africa-overtakes-latin-america-for-the-highest-christian-population/

Please Consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart daily, especially in the Sacred Month of August: Do never secede for any pretended reason from the Pope and the Bishops, and pray and work for the Pope and the Bishops to Consecrate Russia one day, as they infallibly will quite soon. Consecrate Russia yourself in Communion and in Union with the Pope and Bishops. Please consecrate aborted babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Please also offer the Precious Blood of Jesus' Heart to the Eternal Father, and our Lives in Sacrifice in Union with It, and with Mary's Immaculate Heart, that Jerusalem may be saved, Judah be restored, and the Jews may at long last happily be returned to saving Faith in Jesus Christ.
 
The following users thanked this post: Pon de Replay, mikemac, Kreuzritter

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
  • Thanked: 779 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Muhammad: A Mercy to the Worlds?
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2019, 02:08:33 PM »
... examples of Jews making pilgrimages to venerate their ancestors and honor the dead ...

This has nothing to with praying to the dead for their intercession.  If the term "Semitism" is too inaccurate for you, I can use "Hebraism."

The passage doesn't end there, Pon. "Visitors typically recite prayers of psalms and bring with them petitions of prayers written on pieces of paper which are then torn and left on the grave." And this in 21st century Judaism. Clearly this is just "honouring" ones ancestors, right? I presented what the Talmud says about Caleb, which right or wrong and approvingly or unapprovingly shows that prayer for intercession from the "dead" was known among the Jews as a cultural phenomenon and one believed to go back to Mosaic times. I showed you further what it says about visits to graveyards on fast days. We can leave the Zohar aside as it's likely of Medieval origin, at least according to Gershom Sholem, but that also flies in the face of the term "Semitism". The fact is, Semites, or Hebrews, practised things like syncretistic polytheism, and this is a problem for a notion of "Semitism" or "Hebraism" as something culturally or spiritually intrinsic to Semites or Hebrews that had to be transformed by the Western mind to whom it was alien to form Christinaity as it is.

Quote
No.  My claim is that intercessory prayer to the saints is the innovation.  Did the ancient Hebrews, as a practice, pray to the dead for their intercession?

Ok. Yes, I say they did. I say they venerated images, prayed for intercession from saints, invoked angels, worshipped Jesus as Son of the Most High, and honoured the Mother of Yahweh in the Solomonic temple as Queen of Heaven and Tree of Life.

Quote
It's curious that a Catholic would claim this, because the Church teaches that the righteous dead, before the harrowing of hell, remained in Limbo.  It would be strange if the people with whom God made a covenant, and to whom he gave a revelation, would've been so mistaken about this.

I don't see how this implies they were not in Limbo. In any case, I am arguing that they practised it, not whether it was licit. But I do believe it was licit. People on Earth and souls in Purgatory can both intercede for us, and the righteous in Limbo were certainly above either. Anyhow, this all also presumes a view of the tremporal relationship between Earth and Limbo which I can't say is true or not.

Quote
Polytheistic worship was condemned by the God of the Hebrews.  That this was forbidden to them is found in the very first commandment.  At every juncture when the Israelites went whoring after other Gods, they were chastised.  "For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God."

That doesn't change that Semites after whom we've named "Semitism", or Hebrews, as a people, practised it.

Quote
Which seems to be an interpolation. 

Alright. If we want to play the textual criticism game, then let's not be conveniently selective about it. Let's go down the rabbit hole. Let's call Hebrew monotheism a post-exilic invention. Let's call the scriptures, as they came to exist, a giant work in propagandistic editing and mythologising of history to justify and solidify the revolution of the priest class in overthrowing the priest-king monarchy and religion of the First Temple. Let's call Deuteronomy, with its injunctions, the "rediscovered" Temple scroll of Josiah's reforms and the example par excellence of this. Etc. It's a Pandora's box which turns the Bible into a blank slate.

Quote
Anyway, Elijah wasn't dead.

Fair enough, but it's still praying for saintly intercession.
 
The following users thanked this post: mikemac, Xavier