Author Topic: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?  (Read 1369 times)

Online TheReturnofLive

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 03:58:09 PM »

Eventually, the understanding of the role of works done in the state of grace evolved as the sacramental life of the Church became more important. Whatever the case may be, I think it's reasonably safe to say that it is the fides caritata formata that ultimately saves the individual, as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification stated.


What a load of BS.

What, did the Church not ever listen to Saint Anthony the Great? Did the Church not know about the Desert Fathers? Did the Church not have a practice of prayer beads at this time, something testifiable as to the fact that even the Oriental Orthodox have prayer beads? Saint John Cassian, who existed at the same time as Augustine, brought Egyptian monasticism to the West and criticized Augustine for focusing too much on Grace, as if the individual didnít exist; with Augustine criticizing him back. Indeed, itís obvious that Augustine was the real innovator here.

To hell with all those Lutherans and Catholics who say the Lutherans were always right, but the Catholics evolved their doctrine with monasticism. Literally.

Quote
Of course, while no Church Father is infallible, itís hard to figure out what the teaching of the Church ďwas,Ē especially considering that Popes could definitely be wrong in Encyclicals and before the ďMagisteriumĒ was actually defined as a thing. And herein lies the problem with Christianity, and dare I say all religions that have a claim of inherited tradition - tradition is something defined by someone today, and people project whatís believed today to what the people back then said, even if it leads to likely false portrayals of how history worked.

This is an excellent point.

The solution, in the Catholic model, is the Church's practice and authority. The definition of apostolicity and catholicity is what the Holy See declares to be so. The Church and the Papacy are the definite criterion.

But this is not a good solution, because ďwhat the Holy SeeĒ declares to be so, in terms of authoritativeness, is subjective to the point that Roman Catholics will debate for decades what is authoritative and what isnít.

I mean, the Council of Constance, an Ecumenical Council, states very clearly that the Popes are subject to Ecumenical Councils. But the Pope Pius IX said otherwise, and said that itís the Pope that makes Ecumenical Councils authoritative to begin with; yet many Catholics will debate to the death whether or not Trents dogma of Justification is still applicable, given Ecumenism with Lutheranism and Papal Approval of such Ecumenism - particularly the section of the Joint Agreement that says that Trentís Anathemas donít apply to those who agree with this agreement. And even though the Pope ultimately determined the 2nd Vatican Council, many donít seem to know if Vatican II is dogmatic or not, or if it can or cannot contain errors. What about Uniatism? Pope Benedict establishes the beautiful Anglican Ordinariate, and Josaphat was canonized as a Saint for Uniatism, but Pope Francis has repeatedly condemned Uniatism as immoral, even going so far as to say that Russia only has one Church their by right - the Russian Orthodox Church. Is such a teaching authoritative?

See video.


And then you have the same problem, where people project what they believe in backwards and say ďanyone who disagrees with usĒ is in error. I mean, I even came across a blog that says that the Cappadocian Fathers were heretics because they disagree with Aquinas.

So no, the Pope does not solve the problem of epistemological certainty, and in fact only makes it worse.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 04:31:45 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 08:06:54 PM »
In particular the famous five articles of the fifth session, establishing the supremacy of the council, never received papal confirmation (HergenrŲther-Kirsch, II, 862, and Baudrillart, in Dict. de thťol. cath., II, 1219-23). For a refutation of the Gallican claim that these decrees possess a dogmatic character, see GALLICANISM. Nevertheless, the Council of Constance is usually reckoned the Sixteenth General Council; some, as stated above, acknowledge it as such after the fourteenth session (reconvocation by Gregory XII); others again (Salembier) after the thirty-fifth session (adherence of the Spanish nation); Hefele only in the final sessions (forty-second to forty-fifth) under Martin V. No papal approbation of it was ever meant to confirm its anti-papal acts; thus Eugene IV (22 July, 1446) approved the council, with due reserve of the rights, dignity, and supremacy of the Apostolic See (absque tamen prśjudicio juris dignitatis et prśeminentiś Sedis Apostolicś). See Bouix, "De papa, ubi et de concilio oecumenico" (Paris, 1869), and Salembier (below), 313-23.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04288a.htm
 
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2019, 11:00:41 PM »
does not solve the problem of epistemological certainty

Where does Jesus offer us epistemological certainty on this side of the veil?  Where does Jesus use philosophical terminology like epistemology?

Why is this all a gigantic intellectual exercise?  Was Jesus' ministry in an ivory tower where he debated with the rabbis about philosophy, or did He pretty much spend all that time doing charitable acts and in prayer?
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 09:59:30 AM »
Wow. It takes a certain amount of ignorance to make this claim (that Augustine isnít trustworthy because he taught ďSola FidaĒ)

By sola fide it is meant the sole instrument by which the believer is justified before God, apart from his own works of righteousness, which seems to be St. Paul's whole point in Romans and also Clement's in his first epistle to the Corinthian church: "And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

Eventually, the understanding of the role of works done in the state of grace evolved as the sacramental life of the Church became more important. Whatever the case may be, I think it's reasonably safe to say that it is the fides caritata formata that ultimately saves the individual, as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification stated.

This is utter nonsense, as Lutheranism teaches forensic justification by imputed righteousness. That is what the Lutheran cult really means by "justification by faith alone", and that , not "sola fide", is the real issue. What a Catholic or Orthodox Christian and a Lutheran mean by "justification" is different: for the former it is ontological, where justification is a consequence of real sanctification, while for the Lutheran it is nothing other than a legal declaration, and this makes the Joint Declaration a glorified exercise in sophistry, an "agreement" on empty words.
 
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Online TheReturnofLive

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2019, 10:47:10 AM »
does not solve the problem of epistemological certainty

Where does Jesus offer us epistemological certainty on this side of the veil?  Where does Jesus use philosophical terminology like epistemology?

Why is this all a gigantic intellectual exercise?  Was Jesus' ministry in an ivory tower where he debated with the rabbis about philosophy, or did He pretty much spend all that time doing charitable acts and in prayer?

You canít just argue the typical ďDisprove the negativeĒ Sola Scriptura response that literally EVERYONE who wants to justify their erroneous position uses in contrast to obvious facts and Tradition (Where in the Bible can you find X? Because you canít find X, X therefore must be false) when you are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Old Catholic, or any Church which places importance on Tradition outside the Scriptures themselves. Fr. James Martin literally uses the same argument, as Jesus never discussed Sodomy directly, disregarding the Old Testament, New Testament, the unanimous consent of the Church Fathers, and even Catechism of the Catholic Church published by the Vatican.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:02:37 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Online TheReturnofLive

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2019, 10:51:16 AM »
So, where in the Bible can you find Saint veneration, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the Bishop of Rome being the Vicar of Christ, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, Celibate Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, and the stories of the Apostles outside the Bible (like St. Thomas in India)? If you canít, we should dismiss all of these, right? Jesus never talked about any such nonsense!

Better yet, because you guys canít find Epistemological Certainty in Rome in the Bible, that means you should dismiss such nonsensical doctrines.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:03:53 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2019, 11:37:26 AM »
So, where in the Bible can you find Saint veneration, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the Bishop of Rome being the Vicar of Christ, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, Celibate Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, and the stories of the Apostles outside the Bible (like St. Thomas in India)? If you canít, we should dismiss all of these, right? Jesus never talked about any such nonsense!

Catholics understand that not the bible, but the Church is the source of our faith, the Church points to the bible as a reference. In other words, the bible for us Catholics is like a text book, or a manual, or a prayer book.
 
But the protestant looks to the bible as the chief source of the teaching of his religion, of course without the bible, the protestant has nothing to talk about because he cannot talk about history, protestants have no history to speak of.

There is much more than that which is written in Scripture that we are bound to believe, as V1 taught, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".

   
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2019, 11:55:56 AM »
So, where in the Bible can you find Saint veneration, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the Bishop of Rome being the Vicar of Christ, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, Celibate Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, and the stories of the Apostles outside the Bible (like St. Thomas in India)? If you canít, we should dismiss all of these, right? Jesus never talked about any such nonsense!

Catholics understand that not the bible, but the Church is the source of our faith, the Church points to the bible as a reference. In other words, the bible for us Catholics is like a text book, or a manual, or a prayer book.
 
But the protestant looks to the bible as the chief source of the teaching of his religion, of course without the bible, the protestant has nothing to talk about because he cannot talk about history, protestants have no history to speak of.

There is much more than that which is written in Scripture that we are bound to believe, as V1 taught, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".

 

Exactly my point; so you canít believe that epistemological certainty doesnít matter in Roman Catholicism, when Rome has said itself that the Pope is the source of epistemological certainty, regardless of Jesus speaking it as such.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 11:57:42 AM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2019, 12:21:56 PM »
So, where in the Bible can you find Saint veneration, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the Bishop of Rome being the Vicar of Christ, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, Celibate Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, and the stories of the Apostles outside the Bible (like St. Thomas in India)? If you canít, we should dismiss all of these, right? Jesus never talked about any such nonsense!

Catholics understand that not the bible, but the Church is the source of our faith, the Church points to the bible as a reference. In other words, the bible for us Catholics is like a text book, or a manual, or a prayer book.
 
But the protestant looks to the bible as the chief source of the teaching of his religion, of course without the bible, the protestant has nothing to talk about because he cannot talk about history, protestants have no history to speak of.

There is much more than that which is written in Scripture that we are bound to believe, as V1 taught, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".

 

Exactly my point; so you canít believe that epistemological certainty doesnít matter in Roman Catholicism, when Rome has said itself that the Pope is the source of epistemological certainty, regardless of Jesus speaking it as such.

Only as pertains to its understanding of that which is proclaimed in the Scriptures (Divine Revelation).
 

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2019, 11:33:45 PM »
does not solve the problem of epistemological certainty

Where does Jesus offer us epistemological certainty on this side of the veil?  Where does Jesus use philosophical terminology like epistemology?

Why is this all a gigantic intellectual exercise?  Was Jesus' ministry in an ivory tower where he debated with the rabbis about philosophy, or did He pretty much spend all that time doing charitable acts and in prayer?

You canít just argue the typical ďDisprove the negativeĒ Sola Scriptura response that literally EVERYONE who wants to justify their erroneous position uses in contrast to obvious facts and Tradition (Where in the Bible can you find X? Because you canít find X, X therefore must be false) when you are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Old Catholic, or any Church which places importance on Tradition outside the Scriptures themselves. Fr. James Martin literally uses the same argument, as Jesus never discussed Sodomy directly, disregarding the Old Testament, New Testament, the unanimous consent of the Church Fathers, and even Catechism of the Catholic Church published by the Vatican.

Where throughout the ages has the Church taught that laymen need to be deeply intellectually engrossed in the Faith, constantly and obsessively reading every ancient, medieval & modern Church document, debating them, discussing them, mapping out their logic and contradictions?

Instead, my read on Catholicism, is that it has always taught to LIVE the Faith.  Pray, do charitable acts, obey the 10 Commandments, confess your sins, partake of the Eucharist, celebrate the feasts.  Forgive me for being very ignorant of how the Orthodox live the Faith but my brief read on it is that it is all about theosis, which again, seems to have almost nothing to do with the incredible intellectual exercise much of us are doing here.
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2019, 01:58:02 AM »
Quote
Matthew 16:18
"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Seems like sometimes the rock was made out of sandstone.

Christ's promise to Peter does not ensure that the Roman See will be occupied well or by good men. It just means that the Roman See will maintain its doctrinal orthodoxy and remain a pillar of faith for the universal church. And when you compare the Roman See with any other, it is miraculously orthodox. For example, the Sees of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandira and Constantinople have been infected with Arians, Nestorians, Monothelites, and the like. Rome on the other hand has never professed heresy.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2019, 02:06:35 AM »
But since humans don't or won't view the complete history of the Papacy, we come out looking like fools.

Is the Papacy really that important for each and everyone of us to be Catholic? Is the Papacy of Vatican I a burden that can't or shouldn't be borne by any reasonable human being especially in the full blown apostasy of Francis elected by a conclave? Isn't Francis just more of the same and the Papacy is reverting to its norm of power hungry individuals? Fallen man once again.

400 or 500 years of good popes then the Church goes off the rails again. Was Pius IX power hungry?

Vatican I / papal infallibility is the only thing saving the Church from collapsing into outspoken Modernism. It cannot be exaggerated how much Vatican I's solemn definition of the irreformability of papal teaching has put a leash on the Modernist's attempt to dissolve all doctrinal definitions into nothing. Without that dogma every other dogma would have been denied outright by now. If you read Vatican I you'll see that it doesn't say that every pope is an impeccable saint who must be obeyed in every thing he says and does; it just says that every solemn ex cathedra definition relating to faith and morals is infallible.

It's impossible to be Catholic without the papacy. Without a universal (catholic) shepherd, there is no universal (catholic) church. There are only sects with opinions.

Bergoglio being an antipope is no reason to abandon the papacy than was any past antipope. That would be like renouncing Christ because you're disgusted with the Antichrist. Where's the sense in that?
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2019, 02:53:35 AM »


Where throughout the ages has the Church taught that laymen need to be deeply intellectually engrossed in the Faith, constantly and obsessively reading every ancient, medieval & modern Church document, debating them, discussing them, mapping out their logic and contradictions?



Never.

In addition, though, she has never taught, from just after Jesus' ministry and the time of the primitive Church after Pentecost, through the ascendancy of the Doctors of the Church in the few centuries after that, through the medieval period, through the Renaissance period, and from then through the twentieth and into the twenty-first centuries, that Catholicism is an epistemological exercise.

Faith is actually not knowing, which is why faith will fade away after the General Judgment, because the faith-less will be condemned to Hell, and the previously faith-full will have no need for faith in the light of the Beatific Vision.  All will be known; all will be revealed. 
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2019, 06:32:54 AM »
So, where in the Bible can you find Saint veneration, the Immaculate Conception, Mary as the Queen of Heaven, the Bishop of Rome being the Vicar of Christ, Transubstantiation, the Trinity, Celibate Deacons, Priests, and Bishops, and the stories of the Apostles outside the Bible (like St. Thomas in India)? If you canít, we should dismiss all of these, right? Jesus never talked about any such nonsense!

Catholics understand that not the bible, but the Church is the source of our faith, the Church points to the bible as a reference. In other words, the bible for us Catholics is like a text book, or a manual, or a prayer book.
 
But the protestant looks to the bible as the chief source of the teaching of his religion, of course without the bible, the protestant has nothing to talk about because he cannot talk about history, protestants have no history to speak of.

There is much more than that which is written in Scripture that we are bound to believe, as V1 taught, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".

 

Exactly my point; so you canít believe that epistemological certainty doesnít matter in Roman Catholicism, when Rome has said itself that the Pope is the source of epistemological certainty, regardless of Jesus speaking it as such.

We must have faith, not epistemological certainty.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Pope, Pope, Whose got the Papacy?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2019, 09:43:29 AM »
Quote
Rome on the other hand has never professed heresy.

That depends who you ask.

Some, like Vetus, will say whatever Rome says is true, making it a tautology. Sedes will say that whoever professes heresy is not representing the Roman see, making it unfalsifiable. Trads will contort whatever is said whicever way they can to give it an orthodox interpretation. R&R will say it wasn't professed in an official capacity.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 09:57:10 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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